Climate Change

[The Moonster]

19 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Probably not related to the reason for funding issues but there are issues around how it changes the ecosystem ‘downwind’ of these.  Large scale use has the potential to impact tide patterns as well.

 

11 minutes ago, G51 said:

The scheme has been piloted in the Pentland Firth on the basis that it's one of the most dangerous stretches of water in the world, with one of the fastest currents (3 - 5m/s). This is a result of it's unique geography - the position of the British Isles forces water filling the North Sea from the Atlantic Ocean (and vice versa) to use the Firth. That the turbines have proven so resilient in that water is a testament to the engineering and the technology underpinning their design.

The real issue is that in order to generate significant power from tidal turbines, you'd have to invest in the grid in the Highlands and Islands. The government is not long finished upgrading the Denny - Beauly line, with the Beauly - Dounreay line scheduled to be completed this year (though f*ck knows what's happening with that now). They've shown no incination for the further investment that would be required outside of the 275kV line, save for the HVDC cable they're laying between Wick and Moray.

You ask local people in the Highlands what the problem is, and they'll tell you that it's because they're ruled by a distant, unpreresentative Parliament that has no interest in investing into the area. That Parliament is in Edinburgh. It's hard to disagree with them.

Cheers for the replies.

Genuinely thought the "Independence for Highlands and Islands" was a joke but clearly not.

[GordonS]

17 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

I would say I'm at least a little skeptical of the gloom and doom predictions on the climate.
Britain was meant to be a barren desert/winter wasteland by now.

I am all for measures to get rid of single use plastic that ends up in the sea and having less air pollution though.

Why do you say Britain was supposed to be a barren desert or a winter wasteland by now? I don't know any projections that said anything like that.

Our climate definitely has already changed though. We're nearly one degree warmer on average and Scotland gets about 25% more rain on average in the summer. Farmers in the south east of England are deciding not to plant potatoes any more because it's too dry. But we're in a temperate climate so it affects us less than most. 

[GordonS]

14 minutes ago, G51 said:

You ask local people in the Highlands what the problem is, and they'll tell you that it's because they're ruled by a distant, unpreresentative Parliament that has no interest in investing into the area. That Parliament is in Edinburgh. It's hard to disagree with them.

I think it's really easy to disagree with them, everyone moans about what they get from government and I think people in the Highlands and Islands get a lot more attention and resources than those in the Central Belt. The Western Isles has a population smaller than Wishaw and it has three airports and four ferry links, all hugely subsidised,. and massively higher spending per person. It also gets more European funding than almost anywhere in the Central Belt. They get more attention than other rural parts of the country like Galloway. Everyone seems to think that they're getting a raw deal but I don't see it.

[GordonS]

54 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I had no idea about the scheme at the Pentland Firth, seems to be doing very well. Scratching my head a little as what could be the problems with it that we don't want to extend it to other areas. I'm less inclined to believe a central belt conspiracy, surely there's been a bit more said about the pros and cons of it?

We've been here before on wave energy, many times, and it's always been a false dawn. Hundreds of millions have been spent, companies have gone bust. It's always just over the horizon. You'd have to think that someday they'll crack it but it's sure as hell not for the want of trying. 

Oh, and FWIW the UK grid is nothing to do with the Scottish Parliament, it's reserved. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by GordonS

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, Mr. Alli said:

I invested in a bike to do my part but tbh, its fucking pishing rehn and windy AF so I'm thinking about buying a car. 

I'm sorry. 

FWIW, average annual rainfall in Dundee 714mm, in 125 days with precipitation. In Groningen, maybe the most cycling city in the Netherlands, average rainfall is 812mm on 137 days. Their average daily temperature in winter is lower, and they get more snow. The average wind speed in Dundee is 12.3 mph, in Groningen it's 13.7mph.

Dundee's on a hill of course so it's not the same, but the weather isn't the issue people seem to think it is. 

[G51]

11 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

 

Cheers for the replies.

Genuinely thought the "Independence for Highlands and Islands" was a joke but clearly not.

It's not a major movement in the Highlands at the minute, but the feeling of people being seriously pissed off with Edinburgh (and London) is real.

The Caithness & Sutherland MSP Gail Ross (SNP) announced her intention to stand down recently because the public infrastructure is so bad, it takes her eight hours to commute to Edinburgh from Wick without using a car, and she can't commit to that while raising a family. Four hours of that journey is spent travelling 100 miles to Inverness. She wanted to use video meetings to reduce the requirement to travel but Edinburgh told her to f*ck off. Can you imagine for a second that state of affairs being tolerated in the Central Belt?

On top of that, everything has been centralised and control has been moved to the Central Belt. Emergency services in particular. Rural and coastal communities have been hollowed out as people flood to the big cities. You might say "ah, it was ever thus" but it's never been on this scale. Speaking as someone who had to emigrate from the Highlands due to the lack of opportunity and infrastructure where I grew up, the situation is becoming ever more dire. Some parts of the Highlands are forecast to lose up to 20% of their population in the next two decades.

It should worry Scottish nationalists that every single argument that can be (rightfully) given as a reason to vote for Scottish independence, can also be given as a reason to vote for H&I independence. Eventually, those arguments will be made and heard.

[Derry Alli]

2 minutes ago, GordonS said:

FWIW, average annual rainfall in Dundee 714mm, in 125 days with precipitation. In Groningen, maybe the most cycling city in the Netherlands, average rainfall is 812mm on 137 days. Their average daily temperature in winter is lower, and they get more snow. The average wind speed in Dundee is 12.3 mph, in Groningen it's 13.7mph.

Dundee's on a hill of course so it's not the same, but the weather isn't the issue people seem to think it is. 

Are you always so boring? 

[G51]

13 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I think it's really easy to disagree with them, everyone moans about what they get from government and I think people in the Highlands and Islands get a lot more attention and resources than those in the Central Belt. The Western Isles has a population smaller than Wishaw and it has three airports and four ferry links, all hugely subsidised,. and massively higher spending per person. It also gets more European funding than almost anywhere in the Central Belt. They get more attention than other rural parts of the country like Galloway. Everyone seems to think that they're getting a raw deal but I don't see it.

You'd have to be on acid to think that the H&I gets a good deal, for lots of the reasons I gave above in addition to many others.

If the H&I gets such a good deal, how come people are being forced to leave it in order to make a living?

[G51]

13 minutes ago, GordonS said:

We've been here before on wave energy, many times, and it's always been a false dawn. Hundreds of millions have been spent, companies have gone bust. It's always just over the horizon. You'd have to think that someday they'll crack it but it's sure as hell not for the want of trying. 

Wave energy is a completely different thing to tidal energy. Though the EMEC in Orkney is making great strides on wave energy too.

 

[Guest JTS98]

8 minutes ago, G51 said:

If the H&I gets such a good deal, how come people are being forced to leave it in order to make a living?

People leaving isn't necessarily a sign of government neglect.

There's only so appealing you can make a place that is a relatively harsh environment quite far from anywhere else in an era where the world is small and people have plenty of chances to go and live somewhere else.

Maybe it's just not a place many people want to spend their lives?

[coprolite]

Global warming is a global collective action problem. 

We need a one world socialist government to fix it. 

That's never going to happen so the next best option is to work out how to deal with the consequences. 

I'm thinking that stockpiling canned food, ammunition and fuel in a high altitude bunker might be the way to go. 

[The Moonster]

24 minutes ago, G51 said:

It should worry Scottish nationalists that every single argument that can be (rightfully) given as a reason to vote for Scottish independence, can also be given as a reason to vote for H&I independence. Eventually, those arguments will be made and heard.

I'm not sure that's the slam dunk you think it is, but I really have no interest in making this an Independence debate.

[G51]

34 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

People leaving isn't necessarily a sign of government neglect.

There's only so appealing you can make a place that is a relatively harsh environment quite far from anywhere else in an era where the world is small and people have plenty of chances to go and live somewhere else.

Maybe it's just not a place many people want to spend their lives?

When I left the school, I had three options. Go to university, get a trade or get a job working in the Co-op/Safeways/a place like that.

Of the hundreds that left school, a chunk went to university. Those people go and get educated in the big cities of Scotland, but they know they can never return home because the skills they're developing cannot be used. There are no jobs to go back to. So part of making that decision is the acknowledgement that you're leaving home forever.

Of the hundreds of school leavers every year, there were maybe 15 apprenticeships going. I was lucky and got one of them. I thought it would give me the chance to learn some skills that could keep me where I was. But it doesn't - once you're finished your apprenticeship, you don't get kept on unless someone else has left. So again, you have to take your skills somewhere down south or abroad.

That leaves a whole bunch of people scrambling for retail jobs with no prospects of ever developing decent skills that will make them a few quid in life. The lucky ones do pick up a job and survive just above the bread line, until eventually whatever shop they were working in shuts down. The unlucky ones don't. Youth unemployment is high. Eventually, they turn to drink and drug addictions, for which we are unusually susceptible to. Poverty levels are ridiculous. To provide a personal example, of the ten people I grew up with as a bairn, there are more of us that have emigrated from the UK altogether (3) than stayed in the community we were born in (2, one of which unsurprisingly has several convictions closely associated with levels of poverty).

Folk from the Central Belt might not see this as an issue, or consider it "normal" or "natural". That should be no surprise. The Central Belt has profited from Highland depopulation for centuries now. Many see the region as nothing more than a postcard destination, something they can brag about because of it's beauty and occasionally visit for a holiday. But the truth is, it's a resource rich region in all the resources that are going to matter over the next century - water, energy and land. It still has a population larger than places like Iceland. The only question is how long are people in the Highlands going to accept being given such a raw, shitty deal from Edinburgh and London governments that develops action plans only to benefit the big cities before they say they want more control of their own affairs?

Edited September 2, 2020 by G51

[renton]

2 hours ago, G51 said:

This is a good time to talk through this issue, because the Scottish Government just released it's Programme for Government yesterday. Therefore we can examine it's commitments on environmentalism, particularly in regards to renewable energies.

It's important to bear in mind that the overwhelming majority of renewable capacity in Scotland lies within the Highlands and Islands.

First off, the good:

£6.9m for a scheme in Fife that will allow hydrogen to be used for domestic heating, in addition to a Hydrogen Action Plan and Policy Statement to be delivered by year end. Good start, even if hydrogen is a little unconventional for heating homes. There's also the promise of a "drivetrain testing facility" in 2021 that will develop hydrogen fuel cells for cars and other vehicles, though the details on this are vague.

Heat pumps are a big focus too, expert group being set up and will produce recommendations in the new Parliament. Heat pumps though do not work well in the northern parts of Scotland, so it will be interesting to see how the group accounts for this.

The really bad:

There is not a single mention of marine renewables in the document at all. Why is this bad? Well, did you know that there is an experimental tidal wave turbine scheme in the Pentland Firth that is producing outstanding results? And did you know that tidal turbines can produce exponentially higher levels of energy compared to wind turbines? I'll wager most folk didn't. Tidal turbines are so good, that they have the potential to utterly transform Scottish power generation and turn Scotland into a world leader in electricity exports. But the Scottish Government doesn't appear to have any interest in introducing new sites for tidal turbines. Perhaps because there are few viable sites in the Central Belt?

Overall, it's difficult to avoid the conclusion that the programme is misguided, and is heavily biased towards an area with very little renewable capacity in the Central Belt, which is a shame. It underlines the requirement for self-determination for the people of the Highlands and Islands, who once again get jobbed by remote Parliaments in Edinburgh and London.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.insider.co.uk/news/pentland-firth-tidal-energy-machines-21368531.amp

Assuming that's the same scheme you are talking about, looks like it was connected to the grid 4 years ago, and the owner's current plans are to build a big data centre run on the electricity produced from the tidal turbines.

[G51]

23 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

I'm not sure that's the slam dunk you think it is, but I really have no interest in making this an Independence debate.

For the record, I'd be in favour of Scottish independence as part of a gradualist approach to H&I independence.

Not that I'd get a vote in it now anyway, sadly.

[renton]

Meanwhile, H+I are getting the UK vertical launch spaceport. That will start to generate high quality jobs in running the launch site, as well as creating an eco system of companies around it. Already you have companies like Orbex, based up in Forres who will build launch vehicles for the UK spaceport up there, so apart from starting to attract high quality energy jobs, the Highlands will shortly start to see an influx of tech, space and aerospace jobs.

[renton]

... and in any event, the usual issue with renewables tends to be the lack of predictability. Far more than more turbines in the short term, what is needed is more energy storage, and a smarter, more responsive grid.

[G51]

4 minutes ago, renton said:

Meanwhile, H+I are getting the UK vertical launch spaceport. That will start to generate high quality jobs in running the launch site, as well as creating an eco system of companies around it. Already you have companies like Orbex, based up in Forres who will build launch vehicles for the UK spaceport up there, so apart from starting to attract high quality energy jobs, the Highlands will shortly start to see an influx of tech, space and aerospace jobs.

Ah, the spaceport in Melness?

You won't be surprised to hear that the figure for jobs is now projected to fall well short of what was originally promised.

56 will be created at the launch site, 139 in direct employment as a consequence, 254 jobs directly or indirectly in the Highlands.

How many of those in the Far North? 89 - so basically there will be the 56 folk at the spaceport and an office somewhere in Thurso.

The overwhelming majority of the other jobs are going to - you guessed it - the rest of the UK. 531 jobs, with the Central Belt taking 200 of those.

https://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/fewer-jobs-will-be-created-than-first-forecast-at-sutherland-spaceport-191458/

Not exactly a jobs bonanza is it.

 

[G51]

2 minutes ago, renton said:

... and in any event, the usual issue with renewables tends to be the lack of predictability. Far more than more turbines in the short term, what is needed is more energy storage, and a smarter, more responsive grid.

Tidal turbines are the most predictable energy source out there, including fossil fuels. The reason is that they operate in conjunction with the tide, which we can calculate.

[renton]

7 minutes ago, G51 said:

Ah, the spaceport in Melness?

You won't be surprised to hear that the figure for jobs is now projected to fall well short of what was originally promised.

56 will be created at the launch site, 139 in direct employment as a consequence, 254 jobs directly or indirectly in the Highlands.

How many of those in the Far North? 89 - so basically there will be the 56 folk at the spaceport and an office somewhere in Thurso.

The overwhelming majority of the other jobs are going to - you guessed it - the rest of the UK. 531 jobs, with the Central Belt taking 200 of those.

https://www.northern-times.co.uk/news/fewer-jobs-will-be-created-than-first-forecast-at-sutherland-spaceport-191458/

Not exactly a jobs bonanza is it.

 

It's the supporting jobs that will be created that are more interesting to me than the actual on site staff. You already have Orbex in Forres, for example, companies lile that bring high skill jobs to the North, if those companies are successful they bring in other support companies as well. That then leads to service job sectors as well.