Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Sortmeout

English Independence Referendum

Recommended Posts

If/When independence happens you have to feel sorry for the elderly who loved the UK for 'Vera lynn' reasons and absolute contempt/laughter at the no voter who does so because of My Team:Rangers, or because they've been duped into believing Scotland is a basketcase,  and the English are just better at stuff.  

Edited by Beth Paige-Black

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Antlion said:

English independence would walk it. The English have a pretty strong sense of national identity, and the pro-UK parties would be fucked.

I'm not sure there is that strong a sense of "Englishness", at least when it comes to the international stage.  Take motor racing for instance.  English drivers, if they have a flag on their helmet, have the Union Jack; Mansell, Button, Derek Bell.  Scots drivers tend to have the saltire; Coulthard, Franchitti, Gerry Birrell, John Cleland, even Jim Clark's was Scots blue.  (Perhaps notably Eddie Irvine and John Watson both had Ulster orange rather than red/white/blue and Tom Pryce had the Welsh flag on his.)

 

I think it is in part because many nations define themselves by what they are not.  Cymri is Welsh for, roughly, companions.  The ancient Greeks thought that anyone who wasn't Greek was a barbarian - "barbaroi" - because their languages sounded like bar-bar-bar to them.  The word Slav in Slavic languages also means "word", as they thought they were the only people speaking properly, and then again the word "slave" also refers to Slavs, as being beneath contempt.

 

But whereas Scotland has had the existential threat of England on its doorstep for a millennium, England hasn't really been in the same position, the 45 got a long way but not a threat, there's not been a successful foreign invasion since 1066 unless you count William III but that was a constitutional coup more than anything.  So there's been less of a need to forge an "English" identity.  By the time there was the whole world war/cold war thing, it was about the UK rather than England.

 

If England were ever to vote independence it would most likely be as a snub to the SNP...but I think e.g. Yorkshire might be more likely to do so.

Edited by bluearmyfaction

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We send £290 million to Scotland every week. Let's fund our NHS instead.
Great idea, let's stick it on the side of a bus.
Certainty
FB_IMG_1598477259203.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sortmeout said:

What do you think the result would be? Would the English public vote for independence to dissolve the Union?

Having lived 'down here' for most of my adult life I'd say that 'the English public' is a very tolerant group.  Possibly the most easy-going and accepting of any western European country I know - and that includes Sweden which I know very well.

The very few EngNats that I've met are very much like their ScotNat counterparts:  Small minded, xenophobic fuckwits.  Thankfully, there are very few of them .'down here'.

Your question will never arise in England.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I'm not sure there is that strong a sense of "Englishness", at least when it comes to the international stage.  Take motor racing for instance.  English drivers, if they have a flag on their helmet, have the Union Jack; Mansell, Button, Derek Bell.  Scots drivers tend to have the saltire; Coulthard, Franchitti, Gerry Birrell, John Cleland, even Jim Clark's was Scots blue.  (Perhaps notably Eddie Irvine and John Watson both had Ulster orange rather than red/white/blue and Tom Pryce had the Welsh flag on his.)

 

I think it is in part because many nations define themselves by what they are not.  Cymri is Welsh for, roughly, companions.  The ancient Greeks thought that anyone who wasn't Greek was a barbarian - "barbaroi" - because their languages sounded like bar-bar-bar to them.  The word Slav in Slavic languages also means "word", as they thought they were the only people speaking properly, and then again the word "slave" also refers to Slavs, as being beneath contempt.

 

But whereas Scotland has had the existential threat of England on its doorstep for a millennium, England hasn't really been in the same position, the 45 got a long way but not a threat, there's not been a successful foreign invasion since 1066 unless you count William III but that was a constitutional coup more than anything.  So there's been less of a need to forge an "English" identity.  By the time there was the whole world war/cold war thing, it was about the UK rather than England.

 

If England were ever to vote independence it would most likely be as a snub to the SNP...but I think e.g. Yorkshire might be more likely to do so.

 

The thing is a lot of English see no actual difference between England and the U.K. to many they are one and the same thing and don’t seem to understand when anyone from the ‘fringe nations’ point this out to them. It is the Scots or Welsh who have the ‘chips on their shoulders’!

I still often have to correct my English wife when she refers to things like for example the Olympics team as English and she has lived here for 20 years and would vote yes in the next referendum.

I wouldn’t surprise me if many in England still used the Union Flag even if all the other Celtic nations became independent. They would still probably sing Rule Britannia as well without any hint of irony(if they are allowed to ).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Having lived 'down here' for most of my adult life I'd say that 'the English public' is a very tolerant group.  Possibly the most easy-going and accepting of any western European country I know - and that includes Sweden which I know very well.

The very few EngNats that I've met are very much like their ScotNat counterparts:  Small minded, xenophobic fuckwits.  Thankfully, there are very few of them .'down here'.

Your question will never arise in England.

 

Sipping warm beer in the beer garden watching the gentle thud of leather on willow blah blah blah.

What a load of rosy pish...........the Brexit and GE voting patterns amongst the nation states of the UK tell the true story. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

Sipping warm beer

Eh?  Well-kept and delightful English bitter is served at cellar temperature.

You're more familiar with Bitter Scotch.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some good replies so far.  As I’ve mentioned before on here I am interested in politics and seeing the different opinions and arguments whereas personally I don’t vote nor necessarily care too much about the results of real elections when they happen (as ignorant as that is of me).  

 

To ask a further question - what would happen if , at the same time, the whole of the UK was having a vote on independence. So every single adult resident of Scotland, England, Wales and NI voting on the same day for the whole of the UK to be broken up or stay together? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Having lived 'down here' for most of my adult life I'd say that 'the English public' is a very tolerant group.  Possibly the most easy-going and accepting of any western European country I know - and that includes Sweden which I know very well.
The very few EngNats that I've met are very much like their ScotNat counterparts:  Small minded, xenophobic fuckwits.  Thankfully, there are very few of them .'down here'.
Your question will never arise in England.
 

I think this explains quite a lot, and I agree with big chunks of it.

Your lived experience of nationalism is that of English nationalism, which is a minority, and as you say “small minded and xenophobic”. As that is your lived experience, you apply your knowledge of nationalists to all who call themselves such. That is a mistake, but understandable. By your own admission, you’ve lived in England now for 40 years, and Scotland is a very different place now compared to 1980 (for instance).

I also agree that the vast majority of people in England are lovely, and although I am a Scot Nat, I could never bring myself to “hate” them. As Cunningham Graham famously said:

“The enemies of Scottish Nationalism are not the English, for they were ever a great and generous folk, quick to respond when justice calls. Our real enemies are among us, born without imagination.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

10 years ago I'd have said no chance but between the 2017 & 2019 GEs there were a number of polls amongst English Tory voters showing a majority replying that losing NI and/or Scotland would be an acceptable price for Brexit and in the end that was BJs choice when he shafted the DUP and took what was essentially the EUs first Brexit offer, one (he'd been TMs Foreign Secretary when she rejected it) and a deal he'd said no Conservative PM could countenance only a few weeks before at the Tory Party Conference - I certainly remember Unionists chuckling when BJ said "No Surrender to the EU".

Unlikely but the old certainties are gone.

 

Edited by btb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's plenty good and decent English folk.

I'm not sure about labelling them 'very tolerant' and the 'most easy going and accepting in Europe', when you consider approximately 40% of them vote Tory and only a couple of weeks ago were foaming at the mouth and demanding migrant boats were machine gunned down in the Channel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no purpose to English nationalism when they can simply equate 'England's interest' with those of the UK as a whole: which is certainly what English-based politicians and voters have been doing in spades recently and arguably have done so ever since the Unions of 1707 and 1800 respectively. It is simply bog-standard national chauvinism: similar to Magyar nationalism in the multinational Kingdom of Hungary (dead like Rangers) or Russian nationalism in the Tsarist Empire and Soviet Union respectively (both also dead like Rangers). The prospects don't look too good then for one of the last imperial rump states in Europe. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've worked almost exclusively with colleagues from England and Wales for the last 12 years. I've made some brilliant friends in that time and I've yet to meet an odious, intolerant arsehole of the sort who appears on Farage's twitter or similar. That doesn't mean some of them don't have a concern about the public services in their area but for the most part, what I see is an appreciation of the diversity in the country (mainly through the choices of restaurants from across the world). 

So, outside of the minority of utter wallopers, the need to part company is nothing to do with individual tolerance or hatred of "the English". It remains a fact that Scotland consistently votes democratically in one direction but is presented with that which it didn't vote for - all too regularly. 

If England wants to keep voting Conservative, let them. If Scotland wants to keep voting for something else then it's time that was acknowledged. I've not met a work colleague who disagrees with that perspective. I've got work colleagues who voted to leave the EU - not xenophobic, swivel-eyed lunatics either. Just people with a different perspective. Let them leave - we voted to stay. 

Finally, I don't think there's much groundswell for English independence but it would grow very rapidly if the SNP were ever to hold the balance of power and support a government which England hadn't voted for. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, HTG said:

I've worked almost exclusively with colleagues from England and Wales for the last 12 years. I've made some brilliant friends in that time and I've yet to meet an odious, intolerant arsehole of the sort who appears on Farage's twitter or similar. That doesn't mean some of them don't have a concern about the public services in their area but for the most part, what I see is an appreciation of the diversity in the country (mainly through the choices of restaurants from across the world). 

So, outside of the minority of utter wallopers, the need to part company is nothing to do with individual tolerance or hatred of "the English". It remains a fact that Scotland consistently votes democratically in one direction but is presented with that which it didn't vote for - all too regularly. 

If England wants to keep voting Conservative, let them. If Scotland wants to keep voting for something else then it's time that was acknowledged. I've not met a work colleague who disagrees with that perspective. I've got work colleagues who voted to leave the EU - not xenophobic, swivel-eyed lunatics either. Just people with a different perspective. Let them leave - we voted to stay. 

Finally, I don't think there's much groundswell for English independence but it would grow very rapidly if the SNP were ever to hold the balance of power and support a government which England hadn't voted for. 

This, I think the Faragey wing of the Tory party would find a Starmer led coalition backed by 50+ SNP MPs impossible to accept - although I would expect IndyRef2 to be an essential for a Labour/SNP coalition to be reached so it's probably academic. 

Edited by btb

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Scotland is lucky in that it was able to fuse its class politics with nationhood which provides an escape plan from permanent Conservative government. Sucks to be left wing, young and English especially since the exodus to the cities and upcoming boundary changes will make positive change nigh on impossible.

Anyway, the English nationalism stuff is just an easy grift for hucksters that would be disastrous for England if they ever pursued it so I suppose we should expect an English independence referendum vote to disband the UK in the next ten years.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only a few loon fringe / fascist groups have actually campaigned for English independence in the last few years (see the English Democrats, full of "reformed" fascists who'd tired of Nick Griffin as the old BNP imploded).

There seems to be three or four broad strands of English Nationalist opinion; the "Sid and Doris Bonkers" types, fond of dressing up as mediavel knights / maid marian on St.George's Day strain; the ex-fascist strain mentioned above; irritable codgers in the Tory membership who'd be happy to cast Scotland and Wales adrift if it meant they got their "pure" no deal Brexit, after which nice Mr. Farage will drive us all back to the 1950s in an old British Leyland bus. The Brexit Party / UKIP were definitely English nationalist fellow travellers; when they said "Britain", really, they meant England. Their desire to abolish devolved assemblies was not out of a sincere belief in unitary government from London but to rub the uppity Jocks' and Taffs' noses in it. No surprise that Farage left his last Scottish appearance with a police escort, really.

There's no opinion anywhere likely to turn English nationalism into a serious political brand anytime soon. A few little-Englander Tory associations can grumble all they like, even a government as deranged / incompetent as the current one realise that it'd be suicide.

That's not to say there isn't a nasty, vocal presence on occasion for English nationalism on the street (the risible Football Lads' Alliance) and noisy roasters online, some of which are Russian bots, but also some real-life sacks in shapeless grey suspiciously-stained Sports Direct jogging bottoms, angry, bitter, celibate and underemployed.

It's 2020. People should be able to see now that right-wing rabble rousers who wrap themselves in their country's flag and appeal to the countrymen's basest instincts on the basis of race, imagined "traditions" and "common sense" are merely providing a cover for something they are nicking, or worse, something the person that owns them is nicking. It's a trick performed from Putin's Russia to Orban's Hungary to Vučić' Serbia the FN in France to Farage, "Tommy Robinson" & co. here. Mugs.

Edited by Ivo den Bieman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...