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English Independence Referendum

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Apologies if this topic has been raised before. I know that they whole “well if Scotland is so bad why is England desperate to keep us?” response to Scottish independence is a common answer but I’m hoping to go a bit deeper than that.

Let’s imagine that Farage or someone of that ilk managed to get us to the point where there was an English vote to allow their citizens to vote for independence. For this example I’ll say it’s independence from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland instead of just England/Scotland.

Main questions from me are:

What do you think the result would be? Would the English public vote for independence to dissolve the Union?

How would it be approached from the various political parties? Who would be on what side? Or would it just be the main parties all pushing for the Union and desperately hoping it’s not a Brexit mk2 scenario. What would the SNP do?

Would we see it get very messy like Brexit with results being challenged, changes delayed etc if it was voted through?

 

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9 minutes ago, Sortmeout said:

Apologies if this topic has been raised before. I know that they whole “well if Scotland is so bad why is England desperate to keep us?” response to Scottish independence is a common answer but I’m hoping to go a bit deeper than that.

Let’s imagine that Farage or someone of that ilk managed to get us to the point where there was an English vote to allow their citizens to vote for independence. For this example I’ll say it’s independence from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland instead of just England/Scotland.

Main questions from me are:

What do you think the result would be? Would the English public vote for independence to dissolve the Union?

How would it be approached from the various political parties? Who would be on what side? Or would it just be the main parties all pushing for the Union and desperately hoping it’s not a Brexit mk2 scenario. What would the SNP do?

Would we see it get very messy like Brexit with results being challenged, changes delayed etc if it was voted through?

 

English independence would walk it. The English have a pretty strong sense of national identity, and the pro-UK parties would be fucked. They couldn’t get away with “too small”, given England is the biggest nation. They couldn’t get away with “too poor” without undermining their attempts to claim it pays for the other nations. They definitely couldn’t get away with “too stupid” given that England already decides the outcome of GEs.

The only card the UK would have to play is “the past” (we were in a war you know!). Whichever politician was driving the English independence bandwagon, on the other hand, would have basically everything the UK has tried to use in the Scottish debates (which amounts to Mother England paying for the dependent territories) as an argument for getting rid of the union. UK nats’ arguments north of the border would fatally undermine their arguments south of the border (and vice versa). 

Any reasonably intelligent English independence leader would walk it, and you know that great swathes of England, already whipped into an ethno-nationalist fervour with Brexit, would lap it up. 

Edited by Antlion

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16 minutes ago, Sortmeout said:

What would the SNP do?

Nothing.

They'd say that the matter of English independence should be one for the people of England to decide. Then stay out of it, I'd imagine.

All the mainstream parties would back staying in the union, with perhaps small splinters within the Tories and Labour pushing for English indy. UKIP/Brexit Party types would be all over it.

More generally, I think that the more Brexity parts of England would be right into the idea, and London wouldn't.  Not sure how it would go, probably a narrow victory for remaining in the union.

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I don't know why England and Wales didn't just leave the UK instead of all this fucking Brexit nonsense. It would have left everyone in the position they actually wanted.

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IF the Union is ever broken/split up, I can't see it being because of an English independence referendum.

I still think Scotland would vote NO again if there was an indy-ref 2.

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3 minutes ago, LincolnHearts said:

IF the Union is ever broken/split up, I can't see it being because of an English independence referendum.

I still think Scotland would vote NO again if there was an indy-ref 2.

The “union” was irreparably broken/split up nearly a century ago. It is a fractured and broken thing. Do you mean “if the union is ever further broken up”?

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I support the English and their right to self determination.

However, imo they don't really need an independence referendum. Being by far the largest and most politically powerful partner in the UK, why would they give that up ? They are able to hoard the wealth, assets and resources generated across 4 countries and redistribute them as they see fit. 

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2 minutes ago, Antlion said:

The “union” was irreparably broken/split up nearly a century ago. It is a fractured and broken thing. Do you mean “if the union is ever further broken up”?

Piss off plastic pedant.

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1 hour ago, Sortmeout said:

Apologies if this topic has been raised before. I know that they whole “well if Scotland is so bad why is England desperate to keep us?” response to Scottish independence is a common answer but I’m hoping to go a bit deeper than that.

Let’s imagine that Farage or someone of that ilk managed to get us to the point where there was an English vote to allow their citizens to vote for independence. For this example I’ll say it’s independence from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland instead of just England/Scotland.

Main questions from me are:

What do you think the result would be? Would the English public vote for independence to dissolve the Union?

How would it be approached from the various political parties? Who would be on what side? Or would it just be the main parties all pushing for the Union and desperately hoping it’s not a Brexit mk2 scenario. What would the SNP do?

Would we see it get very messy like Brexit with results being challenged, changes delayed etc if it was voted through?

 

I don't think it's all that inconceivable to see Farage types (probably the man himself too) turn the focus to going it alone once the EU withdrawal is completed; it'd be a nice, easy populist narrative that'd be straightforward enough to get a decent chunk of Daily Mail type outlets darn sarf backing it to sell copies. Basically a UKIP shift to providing a referendum for England to stop having to support Jockoland, the failed statelet and Wales once the EU aren't as easy to point the finger at for why people's lives are quite so shite in some of the poorer bits of England.

Dunno what the right up here would do, probably just blame the SNP and go "look it's their fault England wants to split up now, please vote for us and maybe our lords and masters down south won't have a referendum of their own."

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Despite their attitudes, the likes of Farage, Mogg and Johnson are well aware of the importance of Scotland's resources to the RUK.

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46 minutes ago, LincolnHearts said:

Piss off plastic pedant.

Bit salty that your precious union is a broken, fractured thing held together by tape, gum, and the wetness produced by the likes of Mr de Pfeffel Johnson? Still furious at those fucking ungrateful paddies for daring to smash it up?

Beautiful.

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6 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Bit salty that your precious union is a broken, fractured thing held together by tape, gum, and the wetness produced by the likes of Mr de Pfeffel Johnson? Still furious at those fucking ungrateful paddies for daring to smash it up?

Beautiful.

WTF are you on about?

Put the Skol down, one's plenty for you.

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I am not sure how it would all pan out. Having lived down south and being married to an English girl many of her ilk don’t seem to know where England stops and Britain starts. They often say one when they actually mean the other. To the English The U.K. has always been England with a few celtic attachments.
Just look at what National Anthem the English football team uses. It’s also only from around Euro 96 when football came home the the flag of St George overtook the Union Flag as the colours of choice for English football fans.

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27 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

Despite their attitudes, the likes of Farage, Mogg and Johnson are well aware of the importance of Scotland's resources to the RUK.

I agree and I wouldn’t see the likes of Johnson or Mogg doing this. Farage is just a shit-stirrer who is happy to cause whatever trouble he wants just to be popular. I could certainly see him deciding that Scotland and NI are the natural next enemy to be tackled.

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9 minutes ago, LincolnHearts said:

WTF are you on about?

Put the Skol down, one's plenty for you.

The union is broken. It is a broken thing. It was irreversibly broken nearly a hundred years ago. Ergo, only thick twats like yourself continue to pour out tear-stained stupidity about it being “broken” in the future. It’s rather like you’re too stupid to even know the history and state of the political union you support.

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Haven't seen recent polling on this but it's usually a convincing majority for keeping the union isn't it? If the devolved governments actually had power to stop Brexit by withholding consent then sure it would change rapidly but they don't so why would they relinquish anything?

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