East Region Juniors

[Dev]

14 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^prime example of myopic P&B posts that latch onto the one thing they can find that fits their preferred line of argument and extrapolate wildly from there rather than looking at the totality of the available information that's a lot more complex.

Ten out of Ten for entertainment but Nil for accuracy!

[LongTimeLurker]

Whatever bud. Reality is the Club 42 rule only applies to Club 42 and has had zero impact on how the SFA board has handled PWG negotiations related to tier 6. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[invergowrie arab]

LTL accusing other of myopia whilst itching to breakout his killer Luncarty argument for the millionth time 

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, LongTimeLurker said:

^^^prime example of myopic P&B posts that latch onto the one thing they can find that fits their preferred line of argument and extrapolate wildly from there rather than looking at the totality of the available information that's a lot more complex.

So, quoting the SPFL playoff rules that specifically say that a club dropping out of SPFL2 that is north of the Tay Bridge line must go to the Highland League is myopic? Maybe it's you who needs new glasses.

[LongTimeLurker]

11 hours ago, invergowrie arab said:

LTL accusing other of myopia whilst itching to breakout his killer Luncarty argument for the millionth time 

Over the line according to the Club 42 rule so shows clearly that rule is irrelevant at tier 6 and below if they can get in, but whatever at this point. The same small gaggle of posters on here will keep posting the same misleading assertions over and over because they are emotionally invested in the outcome, so will simply dismiss the evidence that doesn't fit their preferred picture.

Edited February 25, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Cyclizine]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...keep posting the same misleading assertions over and over because they are emotionally invested in the outcome, so will simply dismiss the evidence that doesn't fit their preferred picture...

Oh, mate

[FairWeatherFan]

I think the consensus opinion from the same "small gaggle of posters" amounts to the following:

1. Tayside teams relied on the SJFA to negotiate their entry into the pyramid through the PWG. The PWG ended in January 2020 with the SFA walking away. Tayside teams then did nothing, while West Region teams pursued the creation of a WoSFL.
2. Working in their own interests, the SPFL threatened the Lowland and Highland Leagues in an attempt to remove the boundary from the SPFL Playoff with Club 42. The SPFL Playoff boundary has remained unchanged.
3. Luncarty are a small club that largely slipped under the radar without any fuss no different than how the likes of Tweedmouth Rangers entered Scottish Football with no one caring about internation boundaries. No one knows how a multi-time East Region Superleague champion like Lochee United would get treated.
4. The SPFL & SFA at Professional Game Board level are working on expanding the SPFL. "Big" SPFL clubs wanting Colt teams. "Small" SPFL clubs wanting to save themselves from relegation. Tier 5 clubs looking for increased promotion upwards. No one really caring what goes on below that.
5. The Highland League signed up for the pyramid with the expectation of clubs from Dundee northwards could soon end up in the league from above and below. They've never walked that back publicly.

Edited February 25, 2021 by FairWeatherFan

[Junior Pub League]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Over the line according to the Club 42 rule so shows clearly that rule is irrelevant at tier 6 and below if they can get in, but whatever at this point. The same small gaggle of posters on here will keep posting the same misleading assertions over and over because they are emotionally invested in the outcome, so will simply dismiss the evidence that doesn't fit their preferred picture.

You have no self awareness at all.

[invergowrie arab]

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Over the line according to the Club 42 rule so shows clearly that rule is irrelevant at tier 6 and below if they can get in, but whatever at this point. The same small gaggle of posters on here will keep posting the same misleading assertions over and over because they are emotionally invested in the outcome, so will simply dismiss the evidence that doesn't fit their preferred picture.

Ok, genuine question.

The Tayside Juniors get their shit together and say, we are ready to go senior as a whole league.

They hedge their bets and ask HFL and LL to consider them as a feeder at Tier 6 but every individual club also makes an individual application to EoSL.

What do you think unfolds?

[Bestsinceslicebread]

27 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I think the consensus opinion from the same "small gaggle of posters" amounts to the following:

1. Tayside teams relied on the SJFA to negotiate their entry into the pyramid through the PWG. The PWG ended in January 2020 with the SFA walking away. Tayside teams then did nothing, while West Region teams pursued the creation of a WoSFL.
   I remember this well but think there was quite a few who wanted to pursue the WOSFL but the rest joined in a domino effect, there were clubs in the old west region premier, first, second and third divisions who didn't want change but they knew its time to go with the times and NOT be left behind.
    
2. Working in their own interests, the SPFL threatened the Lowland and Highland Leagues in an attempt to remove the boundary from the SPFL Playoff with Club 42. The SPFL Playoff boundary has remained unchanged.
   Yip agree 100% of this.
    
3. Luncarty are a small club that largely slipped under the radar without any fuss no different than how the likes of Tweedmouth Rangers entered Scottish Football with no one caring about internation boundaries. No one knows how a multi-time East Region Superleague champion like Lochee United would get treated.
   Not to clued up on the full history of the clubs joining that you mentioned but if the north of the Tay was to join the Highland league it means a very strong Lochee team would move to the Highland league association and the EOSFL would know that was a big team lost to them
    
4. The SPFL & SFA at Professional Game Board level are working on expanding the SPFL. "Big" SPFL clubs wanting Colt teams. "Small" SPFL clubs wanting to save themselves from relegation. Tier 5 clubs looking for increased promotion upwards. No one really caring what goes on below that.
   I believe this to be correct but think once they authorities realize the protentional in clubs  below tier 5 who can become bigger than some of the SPFL 2 clubs then it may change over time, who knows.
    
5. The Highland League signed up for the pyramid with the expectation of clubs from Dundee northwards could soon end up in the league from above and below. They've never walked that back publicly.
   Again not too clued up on the Highland league history about signing up to the pyramid and what they have done to progress it but looking from the outside it seems they haven't done much to progress in making it bigger, am I right or wrong with this observation ? 

 

[Burnieman]

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The same small gaggle of posters on here will keep posting the same misleading assertions over and over because they are emotionally invested in the outcome, so will simply dismiss the evidence that doesn't fit their preferred picture.

Wow

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, invergowrie arab said:

Ok, genuine question.

The Tayside Juniors get their shit together and say, we are ready to go senior as a whole league.

They hedge their bets and ask HFL and LL to consider them as a feeder at Tier 6 but every individual club also makes an individual application to EoSL.

What do you think unfolds?

It's more the EoS and WoS you need to worry about on a Midland League as they would also need to sign off on it and are unlikely to want another promotion playoff entrant. Available evidence (admittedly anecdotal) points to the LL not being that bothered about a rule change on Club 42 as long as they can get something out of it, but they are also clearly not going to roll over on that just because the SPFL orders them to. HL meanwhile would likely point to the SFA having only considered the NCL and north region in PWG terms on the north feeder negotiations as being more relevant than the Club 42 rule because they would also be likely to latch onto only those actions from on high that fit their preferred outcome. Think there would  be a solution eventually if enough of a fuss is kicked up by the Tayside clubs but nobody is likely to be in a rush to accomodate them so it could take a while (as in years rather than months).

Edited February 25, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

25 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Again not too clued up on the Highland league history about signing up to the pyramid and what they have done to progress it but looking from the outside it seems they haven't done much to progress in making it bigger, am I right or wrong with this observation ? 

It's not really their job to do anything. The Lowland League benefited somewhat in still having the EoS and SoS to be tacked on to start increasing the pyramid.

For the Highland League this is the first time in over a decade that the NCL has had 10 or more teams in it. So had never been a viable feeder. The North Juniors were not included in the original SJFA questionnaire in 2017 about entering the pyramid. Then when the PWG meetings began in 2018 the North Juniors said they weren't interested at the time.

Since the pyramid started the Highland League did have a vote over splitting into two Divisions of 10 that would have seen 2 clubs added and probably would have grown over time from there. That vote I think went pretty close to 9-9 so never passed, as there were obviously clubs that never wanted to be cut off from each other. Not to mention it would have only been 18 league games at the time.

More recently they actually had to go to Banks O'Dee and actually ask them to join. Only for Banks O'Dee turn them down.

Edited February 25, 2021 by FairWeatherFan

[Pyramidic]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

1. The Highland League signed up for the pyramid with the expectation of clubs from Dundee northwards could soon end up in the league from above and below. They've never walked that back publicly.

Correct!

New pyramid system for Highland League  - The Press and Journal: June 5, 2014

The landscape of Scottish football has been redrawn and senior clubs from Angus will play in the Highland League if they are relegated from League 2 from next season.

Montrose, Arbroath, Brechin City and Forfar Athletic will join clubs based from Aberdeen to Wick if they lose their league place when the relegation play-off comes into effect.

Only Wick Academy and Clach meet the current criteria for admission to the SPFL.

But the prospect of Wick making a 500-mile round-trip to play a Highland League fixture could become a reality after the geographical line was drawn at Dundee, either side of the River Tay.

New Wick chairman James Innes said: “If any of the Angus clubs join the Highland League we would just have to accept it and make them welcome.

“We are used to long journeys, as are Brora Rangers, but I would hope it would only be a once a season trip.

“We drew 4-4 against Brechin in the Scottish Cup in 2009 at Harmsworth Park and the replay the following Saturday was postponed when we were half an hour from Glebe Park.

“We had to go down the following Tuesday night and unfortunately we lost the tie 4-2.”

The Gable Endies, who finished sixth last season, will be joined in League 2 next season by Arbroath after their relegation and former Highland League club Elgin City, who finished eighth.

The other seven clubs in League 2 would join the Lowland League if they finished bottom and lost the play-off.

Should they meet the promotion criteria, the Highland League champions would meet the winner of the Lowland League with the victor facing the club which finishes bottom of League 2 to decide which club would play in the fourth tier in the following campaign.

Highland League president Finlay Noble, pictured,who along with secretary John Grant was instrumental in rewriting his league’s constitution, said: “On January 31 each season, the clubs in contention must make an application to join the SPFL.

“Should their title challenge falter by March 31 the clubs would be permitted to withdraw their application.

“If a team won the league and did not meet the specific SPFL criteria, they would not be permitted to take part in the play-offs.

“Clach and Wick Academy are the only clubs in the league who currently hold the required bronze level standard.

“The requirements range from the quality of the floodlights to the provision of club doctors and physiotherapists.”

He added: “In addition, if in the future any of the Tayside junior clubs such as Lochee United or Broughty Athletic wanted to go down the route of getting full membership and club licensing, and become involved in the pyramid-system, they would also apply to come into the Highland League.”

In another change to the competition rules Highland League clubs will also be permitted to name seven substitutes for matches next season.

Source: https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/245852/new-pyramid-system-for-highland-league/

[LongTimeLurker]

16 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

... He added: “In addition, if in the future any of the Tayside junior clubs such as Lochee United or Broughty Athletic wanted to go down the route of getting full membership and club licensing, and become involved in the pyramid-system, they would also apply to come into the Highland League.” ...

This one solitary P&J quote from many years ago is consistent with what I am emotionally invested in as the outcome so I am now just going to ignore everything else that has happened subsequently on PWG negotiations, stick my fingers in my ears and go la la la la la la, if anybody points out that applying is not the same thing as being accepted.

[Cyclizine]

12 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

stick my fingers in my ears and go la la la la la la

That sounds like a plan. You do that.

[FairWeatherFan]

44 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

everything else that has happened subsequently on PWG negotiations, stick my fingers in my ears and go la la la la la la, if anybody points out that applying is not the same thing as being accepted.

Those PWG meetings amounting to the EoS saying no to the East Region entering intact from the very beginning in TJ's own words:

The EoS then changing their stance at the 1st proper meeting with Ian Maxwell back in September 2018 by suggesting the creation of a Tayside League.

Further supported in the January 2019 Lowland PWG meeting:

Quote

There were already East leagues and there could be no room for another one. AR said that the Pyramid must be extended to north of the Tay and the West as there was a gap there.

Only to be knocked back by TJ as he wouldn't tell members to change leagues:

Quote

TJ said that the SJFA has Tayside and West Lothian clubs and he would not be willing to tell them that they had to join the EOS FA to progress.

Which then led to the repeated attempts at getting the West Region and East Region accepted into the Lowland pyramid until the PWG broke down in January 2020 when the SFA walked away.

It was never clear that the EoS would accept Tayside teams in to the EoSFL, only offering the pathway into the Lowland pyramid.

Since then away from the PWG that no longer exists. The SPFL had to resort to threatening the removal of teams from the SPFL League Cup and SPFL Challenge Cup in order to seek a change of the SPFL Playoff boundary line by the Highland and Lowland Leagues. Which didn't work.

And the West of Scotland Football League was created in early 2020 with everyone signing off on a statement saying it marked the final piece of the pyramid in the Lowland.

So, yes everyone will go back to the statements made by the Highland League. Since they were going to be accepting Brechin City into the League if they had been relegated. The SPFL Playoff boundary has stayed the same for 7 years. They've also never once walked back any of the statements that said they would accept Tayside teams.

Being agreeable to the East Region going into the Lowland League doesn't mean the Highland League are against them entering the HL area. Why would they want to pursue them when they know that Tayside have been proactively trying to enter the Lowland or stubbornly sit out the pyramid if they don't get what they want?

Edited February 25, 2021 by FairWeatherFan

[Dev]

 

The EoS then changing their stance at the 1st proper meeting with Ian Maxwell back in September 2018 by suggesting the creation of a Tayside League.

But they didn't say that this league would be part of the Lowland Pyramid...... so that would fit with : 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Dev
.

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

The EoS then changing their stance at the 1st proper meeting with Ian Maxwell back in September 2018 by suggesting the creation of a Tayside League.

But they didn't say that this league would be part of the Lowland Pyramid...... so that would fit with : 

The September 2018 PWG was the only one that had everyone involved including the Highland League. It's also the only place the Highland/Lowland seems to have been discussed on any level. However, the minutes for it either don't exist or have never been disclosed. Following that meeting the PWG would split into Highland and Lowland Sub Groups.

Maxwell would also send out his draft email saying that it had been agreed that the EoS/SoS/West Region/East Region would all see it under the Lowland League at Tier 6. With the Highland side being worked on. While there was obviously confusion over Tayside = East Region. I'm not sure that would extend to the idea of 4 feeders to the Lowland League.

Then when East Region / Tayside gets raised again in the Lowland Sub Group PWG meeting in Jan 2019 there's no discussion over the Highland League in it.

I think it's more likely that the EoSFL compromised over allowing a Tayside league enter the Lowland Pyramid as they were the only hold out on the East Region entering intact. This probably being part of wider revamp of the LL Playoff for more promotion to make up for the increased number of leagues covering the area. These West and Tayside leagues were also meant to be new leagues that fell under the scope of the SFA's JPP which was another wrinkle that was never resolved.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

To paraphase Dave Baikie of Tayport on a recent podcast:

"...the Highland League dinnae want them, the East of Scotland League dinnae want them..."

Applications can be made in either direction by either the clubs or league in a Tayside context but it is as clear as mud what the outcome would be because other league memberships get to vote on these issues as well who will have their own selfish self-interest agendas.

Edited February 25, 2021 by LongTimeLurker