East Region Juniors

[FairWeatherFan]

Dealing with the reality of it NCL, North Juniors, and NoT East Juniors. It might be best for the North and NoT East Juniors to create a senior league ala the WoSFL.

NoT East Juniors lose Tayport and likely Scone Thistle leaving them at 15 clubs and it's not like they'll get anyone from the Highland League anytime soon. They could end up with worse numbers than the NCL.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

There is no evidence that the HL currently has any intention of involving Tayside junior clubs from the east region in its feeder leagues and they will have to sign off on any new arrangements in that regard before anything will happen. They are only negotiating with the NCL and the north region juniors and Tayside never even rates a mention when these negotiations are reported on to local media oulets in the traditional HL catchment.

The only place this possibility ever seems to get talked about as if it is a serious option is on P&B. People need to bear in mind that although this may be their preferred outcome or what they perceive to be the rational outcome there are no fixed boundaries for leagues in the senior grade and leagues are autonomous entities with the ability to push their own selfish self-interest rather than having to heed one of Tom Johnston's "board directives" from on high where a pyramid masterplan favoured by the SFA board is concerned.

Tayside clubs could be ****ed because as Dave Baikie of Tayport recently stated in a podcast interview neither pyramid setup wants them on board for what are likely to be distance of travel related reasons. The problem at that point is that the SFA are unlikely to do anything drastic to force a particular outcome to help out clubs that very few people outside of the immediate Dundee and Angus area have the slightest bit of interest in.

Best course of action for them would be to actively test out the different possibilities so they have something to appeal against to highlight their plight. Otherwise both the EoS and HL may well be happy enough to watch what remains of the east region north putter along doing its own thing with somebody from Lochee occasionally saying something delusional about a new Midlands League that can safely be ignored.

Edited February 21, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Bestsinceslicebread]

7 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There is no evidence that the HL currently has any intention of involving Tayside junior clubs from the east region in its feeder leagues and they will have to sign off on any new arrangements in that regard before anything will happen. They are only negotiating with the NCL and the north region juniors and Tayside never even rates a mention when these negotiations are reported on to local media oulets in the traditional HL catchment.

The only place this possibility ever seems to get talked about as if it is a serious option is on P&B. People need to bear in mind that although this may be their preferred outcome or what they perceive to be the rational outcome there are no fixed boundaries for leagues in the senior grade and leagues are autonomous entities with the ability to push their own selfish self-interest rather than having to heed one of Tom Johnston's "board directives" from on high where a pyramid masterplan favoured by the SFA board is concerned.

Tayside clubs could be ****ed because as Dave Baikie of Tayport recently stated in a podcast interview neither pyramid setup wants them on board for travel reasons. The problem at that point is that the SFA are unlikely to do anything drastic to force a particular outcome to help out clubs that very few people outside of the immediate Dundee and Angus area have the slightest bit of interest in.

Best course of action for them would be to actively test out the different possibilities so they have something to appeal against to highlight their plight. Otherwise both the EoS and HL may well be happy enough to watch what remains of the east region north putter along doing its own thing with somebody from Lochee occasionally saying something delusional about a new Midlands League that can safely be ignored.

I've not looked into in great detail as obviously in the past few years but I have been keeping an eye on it but my main focus was that  I've been seeing what's been happing in the EOSFL, EOS the old WOS and the new WOSFL and SOS for that matter but the Dundee and Angus area should be definitive in an area ie, which boundary do they come under, HL or EOSFL.   Out with any of these associations allowing them in. I heard that some of these clubs are in the EOSFL area side and the rest in the HL area side, is this true?.

The Highland League does not have a feeder, is that by their own choice.  When does it get to the stage that the SFA should say, Now this isn't on, Highland league we want a feeder into your league, get it sorted or reconstruction will have to happen.  I know these leagues vote on what's happening but if they are clearly a closed shop for their own interest, (not saying HL is) shouldn't the control be taken out of their hands but arranging a feeder into their league.  The committee of the Highland league must surely know that not having a feeder league is just 'not playing ball'.

 

We are at a stage and always have been when each individual team throughout Scotland look after their own self interest and future and that I agree with but anything that harms the pyramid system or process should be looked at by the main governing bodies and a clear consensus  should be worked on by all parties in order to facilitate all areas with feeder systems that is fair to everyone involved.   I will say there is always teams who will not benefit greatly when this type of things happen but if they are in the area that they should be then that is the correct decision.

[Jimi Shandrix]

8 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There is no evidence that the HL currently has any intention of involving Tayside junior clubs from the east region in its feeder leagues and they will have to sign off on any new arrangements in that regard before anything will happen. They are only negotiating with the NCL and the north region juniors and Tayside never even rates a mention when these negotiations are reported on to local media oulets in the traditional HL catchment.

The only place this possibility ever seems to get talked about as if it is a serious option is on P&B. People need to bear in mind that although this may be their preferred outcome or what they perceive to be the rational outcome there are no fixed boundaries for leagues in the senior grade and leagues are autonomous entities with the ability to push their own selfish self-interest rather than having to heed one of Tom Johnston's "board directives" from on high where a pyramid masterplan favoured by the SFA board is concerned.

Tayside clubs could be ****ed because as Dave Baikie of Tayport recently stated in a podcast interview neither pyramid setup wants them on board for what are likely to be distance of travel related reasons. The problem at that point is that the SFA are unlikely to do anything drastic to force a particular outcome to help out clubs that very few people outside of the immediate Dundee and Angus area have the slightest bit of interest in.

Best course of action for them would be to actively test out the different possibilities so they have something to appeal against to highlight their plight. Otherwise both the EoS and HL may well be happy enough to watch what remains of the east region north putter along doing its own thing with somebody from Lochee occasionally saying something delusional about a new Midlands League that can safely be ignored.

Would a Midland League, if it were proposed, not be the answer to the problems raised by the EOS and the HL regarding travel. What are people's reservations surrounding this idea?

[San Starko Rover]

Guessing this might be it?

I find it a bit farcical that some of those remaining East Juniors on the South side are considered big teams, only for them to complain about travel. The vast majority of the Borders teams will be rooted to the bottom tier of the EoSFL. At which point it's mainly South Fife to the just East of Edinburgh you have to worry about in the upper tiers with a few exceptions. If they played to their reputation they'd only have to deal with a nice away day in a cup to the Borders every once in a while.
I can only imagine they're panicking about Tayside getting in.

As an outsider looking in it amazes me these kind of attitudes are still around on boards.

What’s the saying, “there's none so blind as those who will not see”. The irony is it’s people like this Whitburn board member and their insular attitude that’s killed the SJFA and will eventually see the Junior Cup die a slow death as they’re stuck in a bygone era of Junior teams packing out Hampden with crowds that rivalled the SFL.

The pyramid was inevitable when the SFA backed it and the SJFA had the chance to lead the entire non league show by coming up with a Highland and Lowland solution (remember the SPFL wouldn’t allow 3 feeders) but they didn’t want to know. Had they lead the charge and found a way to incorporate the HL, NCL, SOS and EOS teams fairly into their setup (Not just “they can join at the bottom”) they could have had all the non league under the banner of the SJFA and in the Junior Cup.

Once they refused and started putting up barriers the Lowland League was formed without them. This was their final chance to get on board and lead the system but again too many dinosaurs wanted to mock the Lowland League and any pyramid idea. It was only a matter of time until a Kelty happened and once Dalkeith followed the dominos fell.

The boards defecting haven’t killed “the grade” the boards that refused to change have.

[stanley]

18 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

 

As an outsider looking in it amazes me these kind of attitudes are still around on boards.

What’s the saying, “there's none so blind as those who will not see”. The irony is it’s people like this Whitburn board member and their insular attitude that’s killed the SJFA and will eventually see the Junior Cup die a slow death as they’re stuck in a bygone era of Junior teams packing out Hampden with crowds that rivalled the SFL.

The pyramid was inevitable when the SFA backed it and the SJFA had the chance to lead the entire non league show by coming up with a Highland and Lowland solution (remember the SPFL wouldn’t allow 3 feeders) but they didn’t want to know. Had they lead the charge and found a way to incorporate the HL, NCL, SOS and EOS teams fairly into their setup (Not just “they can join at the bottom”) they could have had all the non league under the banner of the SJFA and in the Junior Cup.

Once they refused and started putting up barriers the Lowland League was formed without them. This was their final chance to get on board and lead the system but again too many dinosaurs wanted to mock the Lowland League and any pyramid idea. It was only a matter of time until a Kelty happened and once Dalkeith followed the dominos fell.

The boards defecting haven’t killed “the grade” the boards that refused to change have.

 

Good post. Let's not forget the way the EoS brought in the conferences when they could have made the East juniors start at the bottom. The vast majority of their old members ended up lower down the leagues because of that when they could have put the East juniors at the bottom and made them take years to all get promoted. The negative attitudes have come from clubs like Whitburn (at least the decision-makers at the clubs).

[Bestsinceslicebread]

3 minutes ago, stanley said:

Good post. Let's not forget the way the EoS brought in the conferences when they could have made the East juniors start at the bottom. The vast majority of their old members ended up lower down the leagues because of that when they could have put the East juniors at the bottom and made them take years to all get promoted. The negative attitudes have come from clubs like Whitburn (at least the decision-makers at the clubs).

I think all of this is old hat, we know there are members still like this but that's for the the here and now, Hopefully all the clubs will be functioning when we are all long gone and a new breed of committee will come in and not even think of all this crap.   It is what it is right now and we want to see the pyramid progress as it will be beneficial to teams who want to TRY and progress with the best intentions.  In business if you take things personally then you wont go far,  This is a great forum despite all the arguments and sometimes personal vendettas going on but the pyramid is growing and some teams might end up lower down from where they should be but so what, there is time just to keep building and try to progress. That choice is there for every single team in Scotland to progress that is amateur, part time team, junior, senior, even youth

[invergowrie arab]

1 hour ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

Would a Midland League, if it were proposed, not be the answer to the problems raised by the EOS and the HL regarding travel. What are people's reservations surrounding this idea?

Where it is feeding into is the issue.

If it feeds into Highland League then the HL will just need to put up with it.  They agreed to be part of a pyramid set up with a defined boundary. If they don't want to accept Tayside teams then the Tayside teams should offer to start a new Tier 5 league which is the feeder to League football. This won't happen of course as the HL would accept them because they still need to be licesensed and for the vast majority of teams  a couple to trips to Dundee each year will be no worse than Brora and Wick and worth the trade off to empty FW into the NCL. 

I see it feeding into the EOSL as massively problematic. Apart from anything it causes all sorts of issues for real world problems like Brechin getting relegated.

Secondly what level does it sit at?  Apart from history why would SoSL get to sit at Tier 6 but not a Midlands League?

If it's at Tier 8 do we go down a route where Tier 7 is bottom rung for majority of clubs but one or two can go to Tier 8 by way of geography?

Could also lead to the slow death of any Midlands League should, for example, Lochee, Broughty, Carnoustie etc start getting promoted but no one coming down (admittedly this is also an issue at Tier 6 North)

Edited February 21, 2021 by invergowrie arab

[stanley]

1 hour ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I think all of this is old hat, we know there are members still like this but that's for the the here and now, Hopefully all the clubs will be functioning when we are all long gone and a new breed of committee will come in and not even think of all this crap.   It is what it is right now and we want to see the pyramid progress as it will be beneficial to teams who want to TRY and progress with the best intentions.  In business if you take things personally then you wont go far,  This is a great forum despite all the arguments and sometimes personal vendettas going on but the pyramid is growing and some teams might end up lower down from where they should be but so what, there is time just to keep building and try to progress. That choice is there for every single team in Scotland to progress that is amateur, part time team, junior, senior, even youth

I agree but if Whitburn are going to say that the old East juniors have destroyed non-league football by moving to the EoS then I think it's worthwhile having some balance and showing what the EoS have done positively regarding the pyramid. Personally, I hope Whitburn and all the West Lothian clubs joining the EoS because I think it's the most sensible solution and it would be very unfortunate to see clubs still in separate leagues despite being from the same area (like we had with the senior/junior divide). Regardless of what old committee members are saying, I still think clubs like Whitburn should be encouraged to join the EoS and forget about any negative feelings regarding clubs moving to the EoS.

Hopefully this will all be forgotten about in a few years and all clubs will be under the same system.

Edited February 21, 2021 by stanley

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

Would a Midland League, if it were proposed, not be the answer to the problems raised by the EOS and the HL regarding travel. What are people's reservations surrounding this idea?

Should have expanded slightly. The delusional bit is the scenario emanating from Lochee of expecting to get former pre-superleagues Tayside region clubs in Perthshire back along with adding all of Fife or a large chunk of it and slotting in at tier 6 below the LL beside EoS, WoS, SoS. Too many approvals from other leagues and clubs needed for it to have any hope at this late stage.

Edited February 21, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Cyclizine]

2 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

The Highland League does not have a feeder, is that by their own choice.  When does it get to the stage that the SFA should say, Now this isn't on, Highland league we want a feeder into your league, get it sorted or reconstruction will have to happen.  I know these leagues vote on what's happening but if they are clearly a closed shop for their own interest, (not saying HL is) shouldn't the control be taken out of their hands but arranging a feeder into their league.  The committee of the Highland league must surely know that not having a feeder league is just 'not playing ball'.

The Highland League is not a closed shop, they have always been open to applications. Indeed, they canvassed when Cove were promoted, just no-one applied.

The only clubs in the traditional Highland catchment area (i.e. not including Tayside for the moment) that could realistically have formed any sort of feeder were the clubs in the NRJFA and NCL.

When the juniors were surveyed about the pyramid, two-thirds of the North Region were in favour, but most clubs didn't really think it really applied to them. Outwith a few of the bigger clubs, most of them are essentially amateur, similar to the North Caley clubs, and although happy to be involved in the pyramid it was obvious they had no real desire to be involved in facilitating it. Hence why nothing really has happened.

We know now that the NRJFA and NCL are in discussions with the Highland League about becoming official feeders and rightly so. I would doubt that the HFL will relegate any clubs any time soon. They have a plan for expanding up to 20 clubs and splitting after this, they don't have a fixed limit of clubs. Simply by the NCL and NRJFA becoming recognised, it allows their clubs to become licenced and then apply for admission.

As for Tayside, I feel like a stuck record. The clubs here need to decide what they want. No one else is going to sort things out from them. If they end up in a recognised Tier 6 league either an existing one or an entirely new one and get licenced, then there will be a mechanism for them to progress.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Cyclizine

[Whitburn Vale]

The same problem is emanating from the Whitburn committee as has always been the problem.....themselves...

We flunked out of joining the Superleague when it was formed,after the 1st season of not being involved,they realised oh shit we've made a mistake here.....

It took us a further 4 seasons before we finally made it into the Superleague,coming close on a couple of occasions to actually winning it.

Then the pyramid became a reality and surprise surprise,the resistance to it from Central park was unbelievable.

The EoS and LL were slated and abused as inferior....

Myself and friends would often get into heated debates in the social club with some of the committee but it was like talking to a brick wall,so stuck in their "staunch" ways it was unbelievable!!

Then one by one more of the East Juniors left,they were branded traitors to the "grade".

Then the WoSFL was set up and they still couldn't see the bigger picture,all they could talk about was local games with local teams,a West Lothian league basically(as Whitburn manager Jamie Sandilands thought was a great idea at the time and depressingly outlined that fact in his podcast with down the divisions recently). 

Give him his due on one part,he did say on the podcast,that he had said recently to the committee that he wanted to see the team playing senior football next season.

Now we have them preferring the WoS over the EoS because of cultural ties.....,dear oh dear

That is the nail on the head,right there,the committee for the most part are L.O.L. or friends off it and surprise surprise are stuck in the past......

The only way they were ever gonna go to the EoS, was and is a last option,due to their hatred of the EoS and some of the teams in it......

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by Whitburn Vale

[Pyramidic]

10 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

The same problem is emanating from the Whitburn committee as has always been the problem.....themselves...

We flunked out of joining the Superleague when it was formed,after the 1st season of not being involved,they realised oh shit we've made a mistake here.....

It took us a further 4 seasons before we finally made it into the Superleague,coming close on a couple of occasions to actually winning it.

Then the pyramid became a reality and surprise surprise,the resistance to it from Central park was unbelievable.

The EoS and LL were slated and abused as inferior....

Myself and friends would often get into heated debates in the social club with some of the committee but it was like talking to a brick wall,so stuck in their "staunch" ways it was unbelievable!!

Then one by one more of the East Juniors left,they were branded traitors to the "grade".

Then the WoSFL was set up and they still couldn't see the bigger picture,all they could talk about was local games with local teams,a West Lothian league basically(as Whitburn manager Jamie Sandilands thought was a great idea at the time and depressingly outlined that fact in his podcast with down the divisions recently). 

Give him his due on one part,he did say on the podcast,that he had said recently to the committee that he wanted to see the team playing senior football next season.

Now we have them preferring the WoS over the EoS because of cultural ties.....,dear oh dear

That is the nail on the head,right there,the committee for the most part are L.O.L. or friends off it and surprise surprise are stuck in the past......

The only way they were ever gonna go to the EoS, was and is a last option,due to their hatred of the EoS and some of the teams in it......

 

 

A sad summary. Sounds as though one or two need counselling!

[FairWeatherFan]

The only thing that matters at this point is that the East Region is about to become a "Tayside" league by default.

They either see North of Tay teams get accepted into the EoSFL this year providing the rest a pathway, or they become a standalone league that can find a pathway into the pyramid by finally representing their specifc interests.

[Baldie2k19]

Simple solution, Tayside clubs join with the North Region, making 3 divisions  for a new "NoSL" .

Premier Division,1st and 2nd divisions. Premier winners then playoff against NCL champions for promotion to HFL. Of course it will be a few years until any playoff winner is licensed and eligible for promotion.

EDIT: or a standalone Tayside league where the winners then playoff against the North region and NCL champions.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Baldie2k19

[LongTimeLurker]

30 minutes ago, Whitburn Vale said:

...Now we have them preferring the WoS over the EoS because of cultural ties.....,dear oh dear......

There's an episode of The Sopranos where the term "Elvis country" is explained to Furio as being somewhere out in the boonies with no Jews or Italians that you don't want to spend any time in. Guess Gala could seem like too much of a change from a West Lothian league format to some people due to the absence of bings and flute bands in much the same sort of way. There was an attempt by Gala Rovers to get into the east region a while back. Forget the excuse that was used to reject the application, but it went the same way as Breadalbane's at around much the same time no doubt based on Jamie Sandilands type of mentality on wet Tuesday nights.

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, Baldie2k19 said:

Simple solution, Tayside clubs join with the North Region, making 3 divisions  for a new "NoSL" .

Premier Division,1st and 2nd divisions.

While I think that's right. Since it was even considered feasible under the Junior structure 20 years ago. I would probably have the 1st Division be split North/South.

There's the numbers there that would have the South Division go no further North than Aberdeen. Then the North Division would cover the same area that the North Juniors do at present.

Otherwise a 2nd Division would largely be trips to Moray and lower level Tayside teams. Meaning the smallest teams make the longest trips.

[Baldie2k19]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

While I think that's right. Since it was even considered feasible under the Junior structure 20 years ago. I would probably have the 1st Division be split North/South.

There's the numbers there that would have the South Division go no further North than Aberdeen. Then the North Division would cover the same area that the North Juniors do at present.

Otherwise a 2nd Division would largely be trips to Moray and lower level Tayside teams. Meaning the smallest teams make the longest trips.

I actually meant to say that, 1st division north/south don't know why I typed 1st and 2nd divisions.

[LongTimeLurker]

This is basically what was originally proposed for the north superleague when the superleagues were brought in around 20 years ago. Neither the north juniors or the Tayside region wanted anything to do with it at the time and they had enough votes to help block the superleagues if they didn't get their way, so Tayside got tacked onto the east superleague instead much to the chagrin of people involved with clubs in West Lothian who would have greatly preferred to be able to hook up with the Glasgow area instead. The tensions over how to organise this stuff are not new.

Edited February 21, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[colourofthegrass]

If the Highland League really don't want to play as far south as Dundee. (it's not clear cos there has been no public move by the Tayside clubs) then they should have to split the North of the Tay area with the Tayside clubs equally.

So the winner of the Highland League plays off against the winner of the Tayside League (assuming licenced). Who then plays the Lowland League for the right to play the SPFL Club 42.

That would concentrate the minds of the Highland League blazers.