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[The Master]

19 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

If you want more cameras though you are going to have to pay for it one way or another.

The quoted cost from the people who looked into it was over £1m a season for it to work. Or around £4500 per game. I am just explaining where those costs come from.

Why are the BBC only responsible for 2 of the Saturday 3pm kick offs? Seems like it is another perk for the OF since i imagine there games get the better cameras and production. There are certainly more than 4 broadcast cameras at Ibrox when I was forced to watch a Rangers Tv stream of the Motherwell game.

Sorry, bad formatting. I was referring to the English Premier League re Sky/BT/BBC’s obligations. 

In Scotland, it’s a bit more complicated. For non-televised games, the home clubs can arrange their own production, except if picked by Alba, which is what Celtic and Rangers do. Otherwise, it’s up to the BBC.

I did say it’s usually no more than 5 cameras at Celtic Park and Ibrox, although from the highlights it looks like there were 6 at the former on Sunday (which, incidentally, is all Premier Sports had at Dens at Tannadice last week). 

I was also only pointing out that in England the cost of producing non-televised games (and hence a large chunk of what it takes to have VAR) is taken on by Sky and the BBC, not the clubs. 

[Ray Patterson]

You only need 4 cameras for VAR - two on the halfway line and one on each 18 yard line - plus any extra cameras angles can be useful. It would be Basic VAR but still VAR.

(NB: 4 Camera VAR isn't VAR Lite - which is a different thing targeted at leagues like the Failed Statelet and Cymru Premier and shouldn't be considered at all for the top flight)

All Scottish Premiership games have at least 4 cameras at them, with the two on halfway that you need for VAR - one usually more zoomed out to show the main camera angle, with one focusing on a player running with the ball or something. However, the other two angles are usually behind the goal and not suitable for VAR. So for Scotland to move to VAR you would need to either move the cameras or bring new ones in. The latter has the larger additional cost. Sky games already have the cameras required.

The non-live Premiership games are already remotely produced in Glasgow by QTV from this season, I believe, so there's probably scope for the "Bletchley Park" to be there. So the costs are certainly coming down and certainly are not the £1-2m a season that some were claiming.
 

[craigkillie]

Crucially, VAR is fucking shite and should be kept away from our game for as long as possible, forever ideally.

[The Master]

19 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

You only need 4 cameras for VAR - two on the halfway line and one on each 18 yard line - plus any extra cameras angles can be useful. It would be Basic VAR but still VAR.
 

For VAR to be used for offside, you also need goal line cameras.

[Junior_Arab]

8 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Crucially, VAR is fucking shite and should be kept away from our game for as long as possible, forever ideally.

Yep. One of the few benefits of Scottish clubs being utterly broke. 

[Ray Patterson]

1 hour ago, The Master said:

For VAR to be used for offside, you also need goal line cameras.

Well they could just have the Basic VAR for the non-live games and then offside VAR for the Sky games - some league are doing it with VAR in only a couple of games per week.

[Greenmachine]

Basic VAR = Douglas Ross sitting in a tent outside the ground!

[Swello]

54 minutes ago, Greenmachine said:

Basic VAR = Douglas Ross sitting in a tent outside the ground!

Basic VAR = SFA Compliance Officer watching Sportscene and sending some emails.

[Lex]

It’s when not if VAR comes into top flight Scottish football. It won’t be next season but it will be in before 2030 I’m sure.
Pandora’s box has been opened and it will be ubiquitous throughout the professional game within a decade or two.

[Theyellowbox]

12 hours ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

80%+ of games aren't on TV so who cares about what TV audiences expeect.

VAR is pish and I only like it in games where i am watching as a neutral for the heads gone aspect of late/reversed decisions.

Sitting in Fir Park, or indeed any stadium in Scotland and having Bobby Madden talk Willie Collum through replays for five minutes isn't filling me with hope that they will get a decision right.

I think you underestimate the cost. There aren't enough angles either for most decisions. Almost no Scottish stadium is regularly equipped with camera set up for most offside decisions. How many broadcast cameras were at Fir Park for the Ross County game?

  Reveal hidden contents

Four

You would need at least double that for any sort of reliable VAR. And that means more cameras, most camera operators, more technicians, more referees. It would supposedly cost each club £100K per year. Obviously the OF would have fewer extra costs because Ibrox and Celtic Park are currently using more cameras than other Scottish grounds.

I disagree. All games are filmed, so video is instantly available.

Agree, we probably currently don't have as many cameras as EPL, but you can go for a 'light' option.

I genuinely don't think that extra cameras would pick up much more that a ref could not see already on what we have. It's all about clear and obvious mistakes, so if we can make a judgement call on what we have already on 90% of the incorrect calls, then that is better than we are at now.

As for the delays, by the time it takes to calm the players down and restart the game, decisions on VAR are made.

On the £100k per year, that would obviously be a central cost and actually, taking VAR aside, probably could create value by having extra TV coverage. I.e, can sell games worldwide better possibly with the better coverage. Could even sell the VAR decisions vi's advertising. Eg at Easter Road, VAR check sponsored by Farmers garages. Teams spread sell corner advertisements on big screens.

In the refs checking, I agree, the thought of Collum still checking these would give me the fear, but given it is remote, you could outsource to say English refs, which would remove any bias.

Ultimately, we will end up having VAR given it is so widespread, so why delay?

[TheScarf]

Due to the 10-2 voting stricture, VAR would never come into the top flight anyway.  Given that Celtic and Rangers know for a fact that they would get less decisions from it. 

 

[gannonball]

16 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Due to the 10-2 voting stricture, VAR would never come into the top flight anyway.  Given that Celtic and Rangers know for a fact that they would get less decisions from it. 

 

you don’t happen to be the guy that had the flat earth shop in Inverness? Sorry to hear it closed, keep fighting the good fight.

 

[craigkillie]

28 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

As for the delays, by the time it takes to calm the players down and restart the game, decisions on VAR are made.

This is quite simply a lie.

[TheScarf]

6 minutes ago, gannonball said:

you don’t happen to be the guy that had the flat earth shop in Inverness? Sorry to hear it closed, keep fighting the good fight.

 

The truth is hard to take sometimes isn't it?  I know your club need all the help they can get at the moment, given the utter diddy you have in charge.

[Swello]

21 minutes ago, Theyellowbox said:

Ultimately, we will end up having VAR given it is so widespread, so why delay?

Is this true though - I don't see it as inevitable as I think it is largely driven by the amount of money washing around in the biggest leagues and the consequences of decisions potentially costing owners a lot of money. I don't think that really applies here.

I think another element that is interesting is fan ownership and a 10-2 voting structure. VAR is not wildly popular amongst supporters and a decision like this would be significant enough that the fan-owned teams in the league couldn't do it against their "owners'" wishes - and there are 3 fan owned teams...

 

[gannonball]

31 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

The truth is hard to take sometimes isn't it?  I know your club need all the help they can get at the moment, given the utter diddy you have in charge.

The truth is I can be arsed with this conspiracy shite.

Whether it’s some Celtic fan claiming some Masonic bias, a *** claiming some unseen ****** hand shite, or some diddy claiming west coast bias. In fact I think there should be a sub-forum for all these bat shit crazy types like yourself to fight it out.

Edited September 29, 2021 by gannonball

[TheScarf]

9 minutes ago, gannonball said:

The truth is I can be arsed with this conspiracy shite.

Whether it’s some Celtic fan claiming some Masonic bias, a *** claiming some unseen ****** hand shite, or some diddy claiming west coast bias. In fact I think there should sub-forum for all these bat shit crazy types to fight it out.

There is.  It's for you and your fellow Celtic fans and fans of your club's business partners across the city.  Happy to point you to it - 

https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?/forum/116-celtic-v-rangers-rangers-v-celtic/

 

[gannonball]

21 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

There is.  It's for you and your fellow Celtic fans and fans of your club's business partners across the city.  Happy to point you to it - 

https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?/forum/116-celtic-v-rangers-rangers-v-celtic/

 

It’s still looks to be an open forum as well whilst peddling conspiracy nonsense. Seems more up your street, Enjoy mate, off you pop .

Edited September 29, 2021 by gannonball

[DiegoDiego]

80%+ of games aren't on TV so who cares about what TV audiences expeect.
VAR is pish

Aye. VAR is terrible if you're in the stadium. I've been at a game which stopped for four minutes, nobody knew why and we were left even more confused when the goal was chalked off and a penalty awarded the other way.

[Theyellowbox]

42 minutes ago, Swello said:

Is this true though - I don't see it as inevitable as I think it is largely driven by the amount of money washing around in the biggest leagues and the consequences of decisions potentially costing owners a lot of money. I don't think that really applies here.

I think another element that is interesting is fan ownership and a 10-2 voting structure. VAR is not wildly popular amongst supporters and a decision like this would be significant enough that the fan-owned teams in the league couldn't do it against their "owners'" wishes - and there are 3 fan owned teams...

 

Yeah, I do think it is inevitable. Given it is being used by the top leagues and European competitions, it will not be long before UEFA end up demanding it.

In terms of the infrastructure, if scottish clubs play in Europe, it will be needed anyway, so probably half the league would need to be kitted our anyway.

I really don't think the cost is massive to be honest.

I do think though, which may actually be the bigger cost, that if we do bring it in, we will probably need profesional refs. Can't have high value games and kit, but part time refs.

As for the argument over whether Rangers or Cetlic would be against it, I think it is probably in their interests. As much as we all moan about perceived ref bias towards them, they both perceive ref bias against them vs each other.

The reality is, the refs are human and when you have 50+ folk screaming you are wrong, the inclination is for that to influence that or the next decision. VAR to an extent, takes that pressure off the refs and that is to everyone's benefit.

Another angle is that as broadcasters are more used to VAR and for them actually adds to the entertainment, how long before SKY demand (or certainly request VAR) as part of their coverage package.