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Lowland League 2020/21 General Chat

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54 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

This simply isn't true. The 6 clubs you mentioned are all SPFL members, and all participated in the democratic vote which led to the cancellation of the SPFL play-offs. The SPFL also had the legal right to cancel their own Premiership, Championship and League 1 play-offs.

Brora and Kelty had no say in the cancellation of the League 2 play-off, and it was not really within the SPFL's power to do so. The only reason there wasn't more of a challenge on this is that it was not practically possible to play the matches.

It is true by your own admission it simply wasn’t possible - thus the SPFL and other parties had no other choice - so a democratic vote would have had no point 

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The relevant part of the SPFL rules is -  The Club occupying position 42 in the League at the end of Season 2014/2015 and in each Season thereafter will take part in a Pyramid Play–Off Competition against a Candidate Club identified by the Scottish FA from and by means of a national competition approved by the Board between clubs which are not members of the League.   - Thus the SFA identifies a candidate club by means of a competition that must be approved by the SPFL Board.  

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The SPFL did however recognise Brora and Kelty as champion clubs of the HL and LL in the curtailed season that was 2019/20.  That is self evident from the SPFL inviting those clubs to participate in the 2020/21 Betfred Cup, the SPFL's own cup competition.

There is no reason why they should not do so again this season.

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4 minutes ago, Footballfirst said:

The SPFL did however recognise Brora and Kelty as champion clubs of the HL and LL in the curtailed season that was 2019/20.  That is self evident from the SPFL inviting those clubs to participate in the 2020/21 Betfred Cup, the SPFL's own cup competition.

There is no reason why they should not do so again this season.

2 different things - who were the champions and the criteria for the candidate club 

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8 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

The relevant part of the SPFL rules is -  The Club occupying position 42 in the League at the end of Season 2014/2015 and in each Season thereafter will take part in a Pyramid Play–Off Competition against a Candidate Club identified by the Scottish FA from and by means of a national competition approved by the Board between clubs which are not members of the League.   - Thus the SFA identifies a candidate club by means of a competition that must be approved by the SPFL Board.  

The approved competition is the Play-off between the HL v. LL Champion. Not how the HL and LL Champions are determined in the first place.

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3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The approved competition is the Play-off between the HL v. LL Champion. Not how the HL and LL Champions are determined in the first place.

Is your interpretation 

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23 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

It is true by your own admission it simply wasn’t possible - thus the SPFL and other parties had no other choice - so a democratic vote would have had no point 

From a legal standpoint, the relegations/denial of play-off spots for SPFL clubs was within the rules, but the denial of play-off spots for Kelty and Brora was not.

I'm not saying that what happened was wrong, but just that those clubs do have a stronger legal position than anyone else did.

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27 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

The relevant part of the SPFL rules is -  The Club occupying position 42 in the League at the end of Season 2014/2015 and in each Season thereafter will take part in a Pyramid Play–Off Competition against a Candidate Club identified by the Scottish FA from and by means of a national competition approved by the Board between clubs which are not members of the League.   - Thus the SFA identifies a candidate club by means of a competition that must be approved by the SPFL Board.  

I think the board referred to is the SFA board.

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9 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

...but the denial of play-off spots for Kelty and Brora was not.

Not the case. The HL vs LL playoff is an SFA matter and could not be held last year due to the lockdown at the end of 2019-20 according to the rules as written. The subsequent HL/LL winner vs SPFL42 playoff takes place under SPFL auspices. There was no HL vs LL winner available for Club 42 to play against at the required timing at the end of the season, so the SPFL was within its rights to cancel the playoff on that basis.

https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/images/shares/pdfs/SPFL Rules and Regulations 16-Mar-21 (MASTER COPY) CLEAN.pdf

(a)The League Champions of the SHFL and the SLFL at the end of season 2015/2016 and in each season thereafter will (subject to rule III(f)) take part in the Play-Off Match which shall consist of a home and away two-legged match approved and organised by the Scottish F.A to determine, subject to these rules, which club shall take part in the Pyramid Play-Off Match. A draw supervised by the Scottish FA will determine which club has home advantage in the first match.

(b)The winner of the match detailed in rule III(a), or the team determined in accordance with rule III(f), will enter a home and away two-legged match against Club 42 known as the “Pyramid Play-Off Match”. The Pyramid Play-Off Match pursuant to this rule III(b) shall be approved and organised by the SPFL and the basis on which the Pyramid Play-Off Match shall take place shall be as specified in the SPFL Rules. The winner of the Pyramid Play-Off Match will be entitled to be a member of and play in the SPFL League Two during the immediately succeeding Season and shall thereafter comply with the Rules and Regulations of the SPFL.

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23 minutes ago, Big Dougie said:

I think the board referred to is the SFA board.

No these are the SPFL rules and the list of definitions in those rules states the Board means SPFL Board.  It would say SFA Board if that was what was intended

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1 hour ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

Is your interpretation 

True, based on it being "Approved competition" singular. Whereas the Highland League, Lowland, and HL v. LL Play-off for a Candidate club are multiple competitions.

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9 minutes ago, Cowden Cowboy said:

These are in effect all parts of a single competition designed to produce a candidate club

Give Donald a shout and ask him to come on here and give us the gen on the rules. 👍

 

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Approval of the playoff competition format has already happened and the relevant rules are already in the SPFL constitution. The area of discretion that the SPFL still has on this that determines whether playoff games proceed relates to where there is a discrepancy between SPFL membership requirements and those for entry level licensing where the "Champion Clubs" are concerned rather than how said clubs were identified by the HL and LL:

https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/images/shares/pdfs/SPFL Rules and Regulations 16-Mar-21 (MASTER COPY) CLEAN.pdf

(h)In the event that one of the Champion Clubs in the SHFL or the SLFL fails to comply with the Membership Criteria in circumstances where it is required to do so as the Candidate Club in terms of the SPFL Rules, and the SPFL Board has not granted any waiver, relaxation or period of grace in respect of that club’s requirement to comply with the Membership Criteria, there will be no Play-Off Match in terms of rule III(a) and, the other Champion Club will automatically go forward to the Pyramid Play-Off Match in terms of rule III(b).

(g)In the event that neither the Champion Club of the SHFL nor of the SLFL complies with the Membership Criteria in circumstances where it is required to do so as theCandidate Club in terms of the SPFL Rules, and the SPFL Board has not granted any waiver, relaxation or period of grace in respect of both Clubs’ requirement to comply with the relevant part of the Membership Criteria, there will be no Pyramid Play-Off Competition at the end of the relevant Season and Club 42 will retain its place in the SPFL in the immediately succeeding Season

In the past the question of whether Brora's floodlights were up to SPFL standards was speculated to be a way that they could avoid the playoffs and stay in the HL. In the event they still wound up playing Montrose.

--------------------------------

The Membership Criteria are:-.

D4.1a Club participating in the League must be a member of the Scottish FA

D4.2a Club participating in the League must have registered or be deemed to have registered its ground in accordance with Rule H13;

D4.3a Club participating in the League must:-

D4.3.1.itself, or through a subsidiary or holding company of such Club, own its Registered Ground;

orD4.3.2.have such other rights of occupation or tenure in its Registered Ground as may be approved by the Board;

D4.4any ground which a Club or the Candidate Club registers or is deemed to have registered as its Registered Ground, must, by not later than 31st March preceding any Season and for the whole of that Season:

D4.4.1 with respect to Clubs entitled to play in the Premiership and the Championship have achieved and maintain with respect to stadia criteria at least the Bronze Standard set out in The Scottish Football Association National Club Licensing Manual 63 in force and as amended or supplemented from time to time;

D4.4.2 with respect to Clubs and Candidate Clubs entitled to play in League One and League Two have achieved and maintain with respect to stadia criteria at least the Entry Level Standard set out in The Scottish Football Association National Club Licensing Manual in force and as amended or supplemented from time to time;

D4.4.3 with respect to Clubs entitled to play in the Premiership and the Championship have had and have adequate winter pitch protection, as provided in Rule H10;

and D4.4.4 comply with Rules H18 and H19.

H18All registered grounds and grounds at which League Matches and Play-Off Matches are played must have floodlights. For Clubs entitled in any Season to participate in the Premiership, the Championship and the Premiership/Championship Play-Off Competition such floodlights must be and operate at least to the Silver Standard with respect to floodlighting as set out in The Scottish Football Association National Club Licensing Manual in force and as amended or supplemented from time to time. For Clubs entitled in any Season to participate in the League One, League Two and the Championship/League One and League One/League Two Play-Off Competitions such floodlights must be and operate at least to the Bronze Standard with respect to floodlighting as set out in The Scottish Football Association National Club Licensing Manual in force and as amended or supplemented from time to time.

H19The dimensions of the field of play for all League Matches and the Premiership/Championship Play-Off Competition played by Clubs in the Premiership and the Championship shall be as follows:-MinimumRecommendedMaximumLength95 metres105 metres110 metresWidth60 metres68 metres72 metres

and for all League Matches played in League One and League Two and matches played in the Championship/League One and League One/League Two Play-Off Competitions the dimensions of the field of play shall be as follows:- MinimumRecommendedMaximumLength90 metres105 metres110 metresWidth56 metres68 metres72 metres

Edited by LongTimeLurker

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23 hours ago, craigkillie said:

Changing the rules in extreme circumstances with the consent of the majority of clubs is entirely reasonable. Pushing for a null and void purely to reprieve your club from relegation for a second consecutive season is a bit pathetic.

Let me introduce you to Brechin fans as well ;)

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20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Approval of the playoff competition format has already happened and the relevant rules are already in the SPFL constitution. The area of discretion that the SPFL still has on this that determines whether playoff games proceed relates to where there is a discrepancy between SPFL membership requirements and those for entry level licensing where the "Champions Clubs" are concerned rather than how said clubs were identified by the HL and LL:

https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/images/shares/pdfs/SPFL Rules and Regulations 16-Mar-21 (MASTER COPY) CLEAN.pdf

(h)In the event that one of the Champion Clubs in the SHFL or the SLFL fails to comply with the Membership Criteria in circumstances where it is required to do so as the Candidate Club in terms of the SPFL Rules, and the SPFL Board has not granted any waiver, relaxation or period of grace in respect of that club’s requirement to comply with the Membership Criteria, there will be no Play-Off Match in terms of rule III(a) and, the other Champion Club will automatically go forward to the Pyramid Play-Off Match in terms of rule III(b).

(g)In the event that neither the Champion Club of the SHFL nor of the SLFL complies with the Membership Criteria in circumstances where it is required to do so as theCandidate Club in terms of the SPFL Rules, and the SPFL Board has not granted any waiver, relaxation or period of grace in respect of both Clubs’ requirement to comply with the relevant part of the Membership Criteria, there will be no Pyramid Play-Off Competition at the end of the relevant Season and Club 42 will retain its place in the SPFL in the immediately succeeding Season

In the past the question of whether Brora's floodlights were up to SPFL standards was speculated to be a way that they could avoid the playoffs and stay in the HL. In the event they still wound up playing Montrose.

--------------------------------

The Membership Criteria are:-.

D4.1a Club participating in the League must be a member of the Scottish FA

D4.2a Club participating in the League must have registered or be deemed to have registered its ground in accordance with Rule H13;

D4.3a Club participating in the League must:-

D4.3.1.itself, or through a subsidiary or holding company of such Club, own its Registered Ground;

orD4.3.2.have such other rights of occupation or tenure in its Registered Ground as may be approved by the Board;

D4.4any ground which a Club or the Candidate Club registers or is deemed to have registered as its Registered Ground, must, by not later than 31st March preceding any Season and for the whole of that Season:

D4.4.1 with respect to Clubs entitled to play in the Premiership and the Championship have achieved and maintain with respect to stadia criteria at least the Bronze Standard set out in The Scottish Football Association National Club Licensing Manual 63 in force and as amended or supplemented from time to time;

D4.4.2 with respect to Clubs and Candidate Clubs entitled to play in League One and League Two have achieved and maintain with respect to stadia criteria at least the Entry Level Standard set out in The Scottish Football Association National Club Licensing Manual in force and as amended or supplemented from time to time;

D4.4.3 with respect to Clubs entitled to play in the Premiership and the Championship have had and have adequate winter pitch protection, as provided in Rule H10;

and D4.4.4 comply with Rules H18 and H19.

H18All registered grounds and grounds at which League Matches and Play-Off Matches are played must have floodlights. For Clubs entitled in any Season to participate in the Premiership, the Championship and the Premiership/Championship Play-Off Competition such floodlights must be and operate at least to the Silver Standard with respect to floodlighting as set out in The Scottish Football Association National Club Licensing Manual in force and as amended or supplemented from time to time. For Clubs entitled in any Season to participate in the League One, League Two and the Championship/League One and League One/League Two Play-Off Competitions such floodlights must be and operate at least to the Bronze Standard with respect to floodlighting as set out in The Scottish Football Association National Club Licensing Manual in force and as amended or supplemented from time to time.

H19The dimensions of the field of play for all League Matches and the Premiership/Championship Play-Off Competition played by Clubs in the Premiership and the Championship shall be as follows:-MinimumRecommendedMaximumLength95 metres105 metres110 metresWidth60 metres68 metres72 metres

and for all League Matches played in League One and League Two and matches played in the Championship/League One and League One/League Two Play-Off Competitions the dimensions of the field of play shall be as follows:- MinimumRecommendedMaximumLength90 metres105 metres110 metresWidth56 metres68 metres72 metres

Not all about the format though

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Not the case. The HL vs LL playoff is an SFA matter and could not be held last year due to the lockdown at the end of 2019-20 according to the rules as written. The subsequent HL/LL winner vs SPFL42 playoff takes place under SPFL auspices. There was no HL vs LL winner available for Club 42 to play against at the required timing at the end of the season, so the SPFL was within its rights to cancel the playoff on that basis.
https://spfl.co.uk/admin/filemanager/images/shares/pdfs/SPFL Rules and Regulations 16-Mar-21 (MASTER COPY) CLEAN.pdf
(a)The League Champions of the SHFL and the SLFL at the end of season 2015/2016 and in each season thereafter will (subject to rule III(f)) take part in the Play-Off Match which shall consist of a home and away two-legged match approved and organised by the Scottish F.A to determine, subject to these rules, which club shall take part in the Pyramid Play-Off Match. A draw supervised by the Scottish FA will determine which club has home advantage in the first match.
(b)The winner of the match detailed in rule III(a), or the team determined in accordance with rule III(f), will enter a home and away two-legged match against Club 42 known as the “Pyramid Play-Off Match”. The Pyramid Play-Off Match pursuant to this rule III(b) shall be approved and organised by the SPFL and the basis on which the Pyramid Play-Off Match shall take place shall be as specified in the SPFL Rules. The winner of the Pyramid Play-Off Match will be entitled to be a member of and play in the SPFL League Two during the immediately succeeding Season and shall thereafter comply with the Rules and Regulations of the SPFL.

The SPFL cancelled the play-offs unilaterally before the end of the season. The SPFL clubs approved the scrapping of the play-offs on 15th April, which was before the date on which a theoretical Highland v Lowland play-off would have been completed.

This therefore constituted an alteration to the pyramid play-off rules, something which should have been approved by both the HL and LL.

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9 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I think the last thing on George's mind is the Colts teams. He's not really interested in them, only if it affects the LL and HL promotion /relegation. He's more interested in having a stable, constant relegation/promotion to and from the SPFL 2 and the same at the bottom of the LL with promotion/relegation to and from EOSFL/WOSFL and SOSFL and to a certain extent, the same ide with the HL

If that was the case, he would have approached the L2 Clubs ages ago but never has. Just rants on about them protecting themselves.

Most L2 Clubs would support a bigger league but their fans won’t accept Colts so it’s strange that Frasers only route to get more LL access to the spfl  is thru Ibrox yet he could potentially get more joy by building a consensus with L2 and HL 

Maybe George could explain ?

 

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25 minutes ago, Brazilianlex said:

If that was the case, he would have approached the L2 Clubs ages ago but never has. Just rants on about them protecting themselves.

Most L2 Clubs would support a bigger league but their fans won’t accept Colts so it’s strange that Frasers only route to get more LL access to the spfl  is thru Ibrox yet he could potentially get more joy by building a consensus with L2 and HL 

Maybe George could explain ?

 

having not spoken to George in over a month I cant say right now the exact details of all of this.
I do know his views on the old firm teams but the decisions he precedes over does not influenced due to his views but of the evolution of the Lowland League and it's progression .

Me personally, I do think the Colts inclusion is good for Scottish Football, at what level I'm unsure, SPFL2, LL, WOSFL, I'm still unsure.
I do see it as a progression development not only of those Colts players but teams who play against them and the learning and experience that can be gained

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6 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

having not spoken to George in over a month I cant say right now the exact details of all of this.
I do know his views on the old firm teams but the decisions he precedes over does not influenced due to his views but of the evolution of the Lowland League and it's progression .

Me personally, I do think the Colts inclusion is good for Scottish Football, at what level I'm unsure, SPFL2, LL, WOSFL, I'm still unsure.
I do see it as a progression development not only of those Colts players but teams who play against them and the learning and experience that can be gained

The Colts should not be wrapped up with LL HL access to spfl. Two separate issues.

Pushing for increased L2 with auto up/down would not attract as much opposition as Colts but George seems to be a one trick pony on that one.
 

 

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