Lowland League 2020/21 General Chat

[big al]

11 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Brora and Kelty were both reigning champions and because the leagues were told by the SFA they couldn't put them forward to the pyramid play-off if they went null & void, they had to declare them champions on PPG (they were still both top anyway). Don't think any HL/LL club has a problem with that.

I fully understand how it came about mate, and that the rest of their leagues are behind it as their interests are to get them promoted and clear the way for the  rest to try and get up. 
They may have been reigning champions, again a league that they never completed so didn’t win in the way set out at the start of the season. That has no bearing on this season though. Reality is how can you be a champion without even playing other teams in your league once. 
I get there’s a strong feeling on this forum for more promotions etc but deep down nobody can honestly say they are deserved champions this season.

Im just being honest and pragmatic, remember I would want a better promotion/relegation system as well. 
My point was I don’t understand why folk are surprised the leagues might be looking at the validity of those 2 being champions, as everyone has their own self interest no matter which level of football.

[Big Dougie]

4 minutes ago, big al said:

I fully understand how it came about mate, and that the rest of their leagues are behind it as their interests are to get them promoted and clear the way for the  rest to try and get up. 
They may have been reigning champions, again a league that they never completed so didn’t win in the way set out at the start of the season. That has no bearing on this season though. Reality is how can you be a champion without even playing other teams in your league once. 
I get there’s a strong feeling on this forum for more promotions etc but deep down nobody can honestly say they are deserved champions this season.

Im just being honest and pragmatic, remember I would want a better promotion/relegation system as well. 
My point was I don’t understand why folk are surprised the leagues might be looking at the validity of those 2 being champions, as everyone has their own self interest no matter which level of football.

I get what you are saying, but there is nothing in any play-off rules to say you have to play a certain amount games to qualify.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Big Dougie said:

I’m not sure VoL can complain too much, the league was expanded last year to keep them in.

Only on the basis that PPG denied them the 7 games that could have seen them avoid relegation. 

I know people like to take the 201920 standings as gospel these days but it was it was far from certain. Same with this year. 

[Big Dougie]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Only on the basis that PPG denied them the 7 games that could have seen them avoid relegation. 

I know people like to take the 201920 standings as gospel these days but it was it was far from certain. Same with this year. 

Given that VoL have accumulated a total of 8 pts over the 2 seasons then I would say it was as close to gospel as you can get.

[FairWeatherFan]

19 minutes ago, Big Dougie said:

Given that VoL have accumulated a total of 8 pts over the 2 seasons then I would say it was as close to gospel as you can get.

Only one relegation spot and VoL are a poor side surrounded by a few poor sides.

And what would have been the final run in.

Gretna 2008
Mar 07
Mar 14     Spartans (H)
Mar 21     East Stirlingshire (H)
Mar 28     East Kilbride (H)
Apr 04      Vale of Leithen (A)
Apr 11      Bonnyrigg (A)
Apr 18      BSCG (H)


Edinburgh University
Mar 07
Mar 14     Kelty (H)
Mar 21     BSCG (A)
Mar 28
Apr 04      BSCG (H)*
Apr 11      Dalbeattie (H)
Apr 18      Gala (A)


Dalbeattie Star
Mar 07     Vale of Leithen (A)
Mar 14     BSCG (H)
Mar 21     Gala (A)
Mar 28     Caledonian Braves (H)
Apr 04      Berwick (H)
Apr 11      Edinburgh Uni (A)
Apr 18      Civil Service (H)


Vale of Leithen
Mar 07     Dalbeattie (H)
Mar 14     Berwick (H)
Mar 21     East Kilbride (A)
Mar 28     BSCG (H)
Apr 04      Gretna (H)
Apr 11      Civil Service (A)
Apr 18      Stirling Uni (H)

This season they would almost certainly go down if the LL was returning to 16 teams, but they still had the likes of Edinburgh University and Dalbeattie Star to play from a 50% perspective.

Its the same familiar faces at this end of the table that have shown they can beat each other and take random points off others. It's not certain VoL would be bottom if they games were actually played.

 

 

[Big Dougie]

40 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Only one relegation spot and VoL are a poor side surrounded by a few poor sides.

And what would have been the final run in.

Gretna 2008
Mar 07
Mar 14     Spartans (H)
Mar 21     East Stirlingshire (H)
Mar 28     East Kilbride (H)
Apr 04      Vale of Leithen (A)
Apr 11      Bonnyrigg (A)
Apr 18      BSCG (H)


Edinburgh University
Mar 07
Mar 14     Kelty (H)
Mar 21     BSCG (A)
Mar 28
Apr 04      BSCG (H)*
Apr 11      Dalbeattie (H)
Apr 18      Gala (A)


Dalbeattie Star
Mar 07     Vale of Leithen (A)
Mar 14     BSCG (H)
Mar 21     Gala (A)
Mar 28     Caledonian Braves (H)
Apr 04      Berwick (H)
Apr 11      Edinburgh Uni (A)
Apr 18      Civil Service (H)


Vale of Leithen
Mar 07     Dalbeattie (H)
Mar 14     Berwick (H)
Mar 21     East Kilbride (A)
Mar 28     BSCG (H)
Apr 04      Gretna (H)
Apr 11      Civil Service (A)
Apr 18      Stirling Uni (H)

This season they would almost certainly go down if the LL was returning to 16 teams, but they still had the likes of Edinburgh University and Dalbeattie Star to play from a 50% perspective.

Its the same familiar faces at this end of the table that have shown they can beat each other and take random points off others. It's not certain VoL would be bottom if they games were actually played.

 

 

I admire your defence of VoL but there is no evidence that they would have picked enough random points, based on their performances to that date.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Big Dougie

[Bundesliga Boy]

Another school of thought of what could potentially happen on the 19th, aimed at those who are far more confident than I, that the pyramid play-off final will proceed.

Could the negative statement from the SPFL be a forewarning that perhaps the Highland and Lowland playoff wont happen, but that Club 42 v Lowland champ might?

Allow me to indulge.

Brora have had 2 very competitive (and very recent) Scottish cup ties, and as such are far closer to match fitness than a club such as Kelty who haven't laced up in a while.  This way the SPFL can ditch Brora under the auspices of them only having played 3 league games, when others in the league had only played once - and in Strathspeys case, hadn't started at all.  The SPFL can't then be accused of closing off the Pyramid play-off altogether, but instead take their chances against a team who haven't played in a long while.  Would also explain why it took a suspiciously long time for Kelty to be given permission to even train. 

Yes I know, talent usually wins out in the end, and Kelty would likely still be regarded as heavy favourites against Brechin.......or whoever happens to finish as Club 42.

For the avoidance of doubt, I still believe and fear that the pyramid play-off final will be abolished altogether, however the above scenario would mean the SPFL saves face a little, and gives them far more credit with the neutrals whilst very very slightly increasing the chances of Club 42 remaining in the league due to Kelty being dormant for so long.  Just something to consider.

Edited April 10, 2021 by Bundesliga Boy

[morley]

8 hours ago, Bundesliga Boy said:

Another school of thought of what could potentially happen on the 19th, aimed at those who are far more confident than I, that the pyramid play-off final will proceed.

Could the negative statement from the SPFL be a forewarning that perhaps the Highland and Lowland playoff wont happen, but that Club 42 v Lowland champ might?

Allow me to indulge.

Brora have had 2 very competitive (and very recent) Scottish cup ties, and as such are far closer to match fitness than a club such as Kelty who haven't laced up in a while.  This way the SPFL can ditch Brora under the auspices of them only having played 3 league games, when others in the league had only played once - and in Strathspeys case, hadn't started at all.  The SPFL can't then be accused of closing off the Pyramid play-off altogether, but instead take their chances against a team who haven't played in a long while.  Would also explain why it took a suspiciously long time for Kelty to be given permission to even train. 

Yes I know, talent usually wins out in the end, and Kelty would likely still be regarded as heavy favourites against Brechin.......or whoever happens to finish as Club 42.

For the avoidance of doubt, I still believe and fear that the pyramid play-off final will be abolished altogether, however the above scenario would mean the SPFL saves face a little, and gives them far more credit with the neutrals whilst very very slightly increasing the chances of Club 42 remaining in the league due to Kelty being dormant for so long.  Just something to consider.

I will indulge your conspiracy theory further and say as far as I can see the pyramid rules/spfl membership criteria make no reference to the scenario of only 1 team as the rules say the team which plays club 42 in the playoff has to first have come through a HL/LL playoff. So the spfl could argue it they dont recognise Brora as a legit HL champion but recognise Kelty as a LL champion, Kelty still wouldn't be a legit entrant to the pyramid playoff as they can't be deemed a nationwide non league champion given the HL failed to put forward a legit champion in the spfl eyes. So failing the spirit of the spfl membership criteria meaning the whole pyramid agreement is void given one of the parties to the agreement has failed to fulfill their side of it........ love a conspiracy theory. I should add I do actually think the spfl board will conform both and the pyramid playoffs will go ahead.

Edited April 11, 2021 by morley

[pipedreamer]

1 hour ago, morley said:

I will indulge your conspiracy theory further and say as far as I can see the pyramid rules/spfl membership criteria make no reference to the scenario of only 1 team as the rules say the team which plays club 42 in the playoff has to first have come through a HL/LL playoff. So the spfl could argue it they dont recognise Brora as a legit HL champion but recognise Kelty as a LL champion, Kelty still wouldn't be a legit entrant to the pyramid playoff as they can't be deemed a nationwide non league champion given the HL failed to put forward a legit champion in the spfl eyes. So failing the spirit of the spfl membership criteria meaning the whole pyramid agreement is void given one of the parties to the agreement has failed to fulfill their side of it........ love a conspiracy theory. I should add I do actually think the spfl board will conform both and the pyramid playoffs will go ahead.

I suggest you read the articles sent to the lowland and highland clubs in December that Mozza posted the link to on Twitter which explicitly states that if there was only one eligible champion club from either league they would go straight to playing club 42. 

Edited April 11, 2021 by pipedreamer

[newcastle broon]

10 hours ago, Big Dougie said:

I admire your defence of VoL but there is no evidence that they would have picked enough random points, based on their performances to that date.

There is also no evidence to say they wouldn't have taken something from their games against Vale and Dalbeattie though.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

10 hours ago, Big Dougie said:

I admire your defence of VoL but there is no evidence that they would have picked enough random points, based on their performances to that date.

It's certainly not a defence. VoL are a poor team that benefit from being surrounded by other poor teams. In 2019-20 with 7 games to go a win and a draw would have got them off the bottom and they had already beaten Dalbeattie away from home that season. What was meant to be another 20 games in 2020-21 they needed 2 wins to do the same.

Now that the EoS has a peer at Tier 6 that actually wants promotion, they'll hopefully push for two promotion spots. Since Tier 6 leagues are likely not getting promotion this year and having to deal with the extra relegation from the LL due to their temporary expansion.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, pipedreamer said:

I suggest you read the articles sent to the lowland and highland clubs in December that Mozza posted the link to on Twitter...

There's nothing obvious in there that they can go after. People need to keep this factual rather than paranoia driven. The main angle of attack if you read what supporters of potential Club 42 candidates are posting elsewhere appears to be that the LL supposedly broke its own rules by declaring a champion based on PPG but as far as I can see from reading the constitutions it's not the SPFL's job to determine that it would be the SFA's and the SFA are known to have actively advised the HL and LL on how to end their seasons in a way that would provide a valid "League Champion".  There's also the small matter of the SPFL having already accepted League and Challenge Cup entrants from the LL on the basis of last season's PPG outcome.

[Big Dougie]

47 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

There's nothing obvious in there that they can go after. People need to keep this factual rather than paranoia driven. The main angle of attack if you read what supporters of potential Club 42 candidates are posting elsewhere appears to be that the LL supposedly broke its own rules by declaring a champion based on PPG but as far as I can see from reading the constitutions it's not the SPFL's job to determine that it would be the SFA's and the SFA are known to have actively advised the HL and LL on how to end their seasons in a way that would provide a valid "League Champion".  There's also the small matter of the SPFL having already accepted League and Challenge Cup entrants from the LL on the basis of last season's PPG outcome.

No rules were broken as far as I can see, unless I have missed it of course.

[Big Dougie]

1 hour ago, newcastle broon said:

There is also no evidence to say they wouldn't have taken something from their games against Vale and Dalbeattie though.

 

All you can say is that there is more than 50% probability that Vale would not have picked up enough points to survive, based on their performances to date.

[LongTimeLurker]

1 hour ago, Big Dougie said:

No rules were broken as far as I can see, unless I have missed it of course.

They are clutching at straws basically. The royal funeral at 3pm next Saturday is exactly the sort of scenario that the SPFL website story was describing as making it impossible for the SPFL to set fixed dates for the playoffs yet as any postponements would complicate reaching 18 game in time to do the extra four they had planned.

https://spfl.co.uk/news/ken-ferguson-steps-down-from-spfl-board

...A spokesman for the SPFL said: “Given that there are a number of uncertainties, including whether League 2 clubs will play 22 or 18 games this season, we are not in a position to announce dates for Pyramid Play-Off ties this season...

Edited April 11, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Stag Nation]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

They are clutching at straws basically. The royal funeral at 3pm next Saturday is exactly the sort of scenario that the SPFL website story was describing as making it impossible for the SPFL to set fixed dates for the playoffs yet as any postponements would complicate reaching 18 game in time to do the extra four they had planned.

https://spfl.co.uk/news/ken-ferguson-steps-down-from-spfl-board

...A spokesman for the SPFL said: “Given that there are a number of uncertainties, including whether League 2 clubs will play 22 or 18 games this season, we are not in a position to announce dates for Pyramid Play-Off ties this season...

I can't see the relevance of the royal funeral, unless some League 2 player has a hitherto-unknown close connection to the royal family. Nothing to stop earlier or later kick-offs on Saturday.

[LongTimeLurker]

2 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

I can't see the relevance of the royal funeral, unless some League 2 player has a hitherto-unknown close connection to the royal family. Nothing to stop earlier or later kick-offs on Saturday.

Hopefully that last bit will be what happens.

[GordonS]

16 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Only one relegation spot and VoL are a poor side surrounded by a few poor sides.

And what would have been the final run in.

Gretna 2008
Mar 07
Mar 14     Spartans (H)
Mar 21     East Stirlingshire (H)
Mar 28     East Kilbride (H)
Apr 04      Vale of Leithen (A)
Apr 11      Bonnyrigg (A)
Apr 18      BSCG (H)


Edinburgh University
Mar 07
Mar 14     Kelty (H)
Mar 21     BSCG (A)
Mar 28
Apr 04      BSCG (H)*
Apr 11      Dalbeattie (H)
Apr 18      Gala (A)


Dalbeattie Star
Mar 07     Vale of Leithen (A)
Mar 14     BSCG (H)
Mar 21     Gala (A)
Mar 28     Caledonian Braves (H)
Apr 04      Berwick (H)
Apr 11      Edinburgh Uni (A)
Apr 18      Civil Service (H)


Vale of Leithen
Mar 07     Dalbeattie (H)
Mar 14     Berwick (H)
Mar 21     East Kilbride (A)
Mar 28     BSCG (H)
Apr 04      Gretna (H)
Apr 11      Civil Service (A)
Apr 18      Stirling Uni (H)

This season they would almost certainly go down if the LL was returning to 16 teams, but they still had the likes of Edinburgh University and Dalbeattie Star to play from a 50% perspective.

Its the same familiar faces at this end of the table that have shown they can beat each other and take random points off others. It's not certain VoL would be bottom if they games were actually played.

 

 

I agree with you that it's harsh on VoL not to get the chance to dig themselves out. But there's nothing easy about any of this, and being completely fair to VoL almost certainly means being unfair to Kelty. League officials have an impossible balance to find and IMO it would be more unfair overall to hold Kelty back again or deny promotion into the league.

[FairWeatherFan]

15 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I agree with you that it's harsh on VoL not to get the chance to dig themselves out. But there's nothing easy about any of this, and being completely fair to VoL almost certainly means being unfair to Kelty. League officials have an impossible balance to find and IMO it would be more unfair overall to hold Kelty back again or deny promotion into the league.

I don't have a problem with using PPG even with the limited number of games, but then i'm not involved in any of the clubs.

Where this started though was over VoL can't complain too much over it. Which I think they're fine to do as they were not stick ons for relegation if games were actually played.

[Cowden Cowboy]

If we can get rid off the tinfoil trilbies.

Ken Ferguson was victimised by many last year and patently would not like the same treatment this year.  It was always ludicrous to suggest he held some sway over the SPFL Board.  
 

Kelty, Brora, Bonnyrigg were victims of Covid last year - as were Hearts, Falkirk, Cowdenbeath, Stranraer, Elgin and several other clubs.  They were all hard done to but there were only limited options - there was never a solution that didn’t disadvantage any club.  
 

That though has no bearing on 20/21 at all.  
 

As I previously pointed out the SPFL play off is I would surmise having read the rules contingent on the SPFL Board which has a duty to its members being satisfied with the (overall) competition that produces a club for play off/SPFL membership - a league competition of just 3 games and another that did not meet its original 50% criteria (nor indeed produce a result based on a balanced fixture card) certainly might be scrutinised.  
 

The football authorities I anticipate also would ideally like to leverage Colts into the mix - one way to do this is to provide an upside for LL/HL/Club 42 

I make no judgements beyond that but many views here are based on prejudices and preconceptions