OFFICIAL HEARTS JUGGERNAUT THREAD 2020-

[jagfox]

 

[VincentGuerin]

43 minutes ago, jagfox said:

 

[VincentGuerin]

Everybody looking forward to Killie then?

f**k knows what kind of defence we'll have on the park, I'd bite your arm off for a point now. Return of Sibbick?

We're in a hole just now, but I think there's two ways of seeing how things are going.

I'll begin with the case for the defence: It's unfortunate for the club that we've hit the group stages of this thing with important players missing. All teams get injuries, but taking out our two first pick centre halves, our best midfielder, and the kind of link up player Boyce is would massively hurt any non-OF team, and we simply can't expect the team to perform to its highest level when missing a chunk of the spine. Beyond them we've had lots of other injuries while playing loads of games meaning the squad has been stretched, there's been no continuity of selection, and we look a rabble. Part of that is just being unlucky, and to an extent I sympathise with the coaching staff.

However:

One thing Neilson knows how to do is suck the atmosphere out of the stadium and put the team on the back foot. I actually said to my mate walking to the game last night that it would be bouncing and really noisy until twenty seconds into the game when we retreated to our own six-yard box and the life got sucked out of the support. And I was more or less bang on. The atmosphere at Tynecastle for big games is shite these days, and it's because the team is fucking boring and uninspiring. The whole place got a lift last night at the point where Cochrane just shut some c***s down! That's all it needs, a bit of aggression, and a bit of an attempt to win a game. But that's just not how Robbie approaches big games, and it's killing the place.

Fiorentina were always likely to gub us. They're miles better than us to start with, and with the players missing that we have, we were incredibly unlikely to beat them. But you have a fucking go. We did the worst of both worlds in being dull while not being capable at the back. We give teams way too much respect and Robbie is making less of our squad than what they should be.

In reality, this isn't the end of the world. Nobody expected us to go through, and Robbie is right when he says that this is a learning curve. I, and many others, made this point before a ball was kicked. The main thing is we stabilise and stay in touch with 3rd in the league and try to build on what we'll take from this, which is experience and a chunk of cash.

It's just really frustrating to see the club managing this situation so badly.

 

 

[DukDukGoose]

2 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

Everybody looking forward to Killie then?

f**k knows what kind of defence we'll have on the park, I'd bite your arm off for a point now. Return of Sibbick?

We're in a hole just now, but I think there's two ways of seeing how things are going.

I'll begin with the case for the defence: It's unfortunate for the club that we've hit the group stages of this thing with important players missing. All teams get injuries, but taking out our two first pick centre halves, our best midfielder, and the kind of link up player Boyce is would massively hurt any non-OF team, and we simply can't expect the team to perform to its highest level when missing a chunk of the spine. Beyond them we've had lots of other injuries while playing loads of games meaning the squad has been stretched, there's been no continuity of selection, and we look a rabble. Part of that is just being unlucky, and to an extent I sympathise with the coaching staff.

However:

One thing Neilson knows how to do is suck the atmosphere out of the stadium and put the team on the back foot. I actually said to my mate walking to the game last night that it would be bouncing and really noisy until twenty seconds into the game when we retreated to our own six-yard box and the life got sucked out of the support. And I was more or less bang on. The atmosphere at Tynecastle for big games is shite these days, and it's because the team is fucking boring and uninspiring. The whole place got a lift last night at the point where Cochrane just shut some c***s down! That's all it needs, a bit of aggression, and a bit of an attempt to win a game. But that's just not how Robbie approaches big games, and it's killing the place.

Fiorentina were always likely to gub us. They're miles better than us to start with, and with the players missing that we have, we were incredibly unlikely to beat them. But you have a fucking go. We did the worst of both worlds in being dull while not being capable at the back. We give teams way too much respect and Robbie is making less of our squad than what they should be.

In reality, this isn't the end of the world. Nobody expected us to go through, and Robbie is right when he says that this is a learning curve. I, and many others, made this point before a ball was kicked. The main thing is we stabilise and stay in touch with 3rd in the league and try to build on what we'll take from this, which is experience and a chunk of cash.

It's just really frustrating to see the club managing this situation so badly.

 

 

I'm still surprised you boys didn't bring a few more better quality players to beef up the squad.

[Leith Green]

2 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

One thing Neilson knows how to do is suck the atmosphere out of the stadium and put the team on the back foot. I actually said to my mate walking to the game last night that it would be bouncing and really noisy until twenty seconds into the game when we retreated to our own six-yard box and the life got sucked out of the support. And I was more or less bang on. The atmosphere at Tynecastle for big games is shite these days, and it's because the team is fucking boring and uninspiring. The whole place got a lift last night at the point where Cochrane just shut some c***s down! That's all it needs, a bit of aggression, and a bit of an attempt to win a game. But that's just not how Robbie approaches big games, and it's killing the place.

He was exactly the same in his first spell with you, he cant get his head round bigger games and his subs and the timing of them can be baffling.

Long may it continue........................

[paranoid android]

2 hours ago, Merkland Red said:

I'm still surprised you boys didn't bring a few more better quality players to beef up the squad.

So are we.

[VincentGuerin]

4 hours ago, Merkland Red said:

I'm still surprised you boys didn't bring a few more better quality players to beef up the squad.

Sort of. But I think some of this is just unavoidable.

For example, how many centre-halves is it reasonable to have? I don't think many clubs could really cope with having their two first picks in that position injured for weeks on end while playing lots of games. And games against good sides.

And that has a knock-on effect through the team. We're weak at the back as a result, so there's more pressure on a midfield already missing our best player in that position too. Then we lost Boyce, again a player who helps us control possession and keep the heat off a weak back line. We've hit a perfect storm.

The transfer activity could have been better, but the club can reasonably point out that, Craig Gordon aside, we've just been hit with exactly the injuries that will hurt us most.

Tactically Neilson has been (is?) poor, but it's unarguable that we'd be much better off even if we had two of Baningime, Halkett, Boyce, and Rowles available just now. There's only so much you can plan for.

Edited October 7, 2022 by VincentGuerin

[JamieThomas]

Any news on Devlin being released from jail after his horror tackle that upset Falkirk and Aberdeen fans and led to Matondo missing exactly zero games?

[DC92]

22 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

Sort of. But I think some of this is just unavoidable.

For example, how many centre-halves is it reasonable to have? I don't think many clubs could really cope with having their two first picks in that position injured for weeks on end while playing lots of games. And games against good sides.

And that has a knock-on effect through the team. We're weak at the back as a result, so there's more pressure on a midfield already missing our best player in that position too. Then we lost Boyce, again a player who helps us control possession and keep the heat off a weak back line. We've hit a perfect storm.

The transfer activity could have been better, but the club can reasonably point out that, Craig Gordon aside, we've just been hit with exactly the injuries that will hurt us most.

Tactically Neilson has been (is?) poor, but it's unarguable that we'd be much better off even if we had two of Baningime, Halkett, Boyce, and Rowles available just now. There's only so much you can plan for.

I agree with most of what you've said but I don't think the current lack of depth in defence is acceptable.

Last season we lacked a proper no-nonsense defender to cover Halkett and results massively suffered when he was out of the team. We've also since lost Souttar and Moore, both of whom covered the right hand side of defence. While talking about needing to add quality and extra depth all over the pitch, we brought in a left-sided defender from Australia and a teenager who's barely played a game at Premiership level. Thankfully Rowles has looked good so far, but overall that's a significant downgrade in experience and depth on the right side of defence when we were supposed to be doing the opposite.

I made this argument in the summer before Halkett and Rowles got injured and pointed out that Halkett missing a few weeks in September/October could be disastrous. Unfortunately it's proving as much so far.

The thing is, the club already knew this and agreed with me. Neilson was quoted as wanting another CB right through the summer. We took Joe Wright on trial before rejecting him because we wanted better. Then that chat cooled down in the last couple of weeks of the window right as Halkett and Rowles got injured. My strong suspicion is that we had a few targets and failed to get them.

The club has a stated policy of not signing players unless they think they're an improvement on what's here already. Anyone signed for cover is generally no older than 23/24. That's admirable in theory, but even a bang average, meat-and-potatoes, 30 year old Premiership level defender would have been a significant help in this run of games. After two injuries we don't have a single option who's just a proper defender and I don't think that's right.

I will say that I've seen comments that a defender instead of Kiomourtzoglou and that's just daft. I don't know if he's any good yet, but those people wouldn't be saying the same if Devlin and Grant/Haring had got injured instead of Halkett and Rowles. We needed both.

[paranoid android]

I agree that we should have strengthened at RCB/RB, but, to be fair, we'd be in a stronger position if Sibbick was performing better - I'd probably say the same for Atkinson - we might have to use both on Thursday. 

I believe Atkinson was decent on Sunday apart from his goal.

Up to them if they want to claim a regular starting place.

[DC92]

27 minutes ago, paranoid android said:

I agree that we should have strengthened at RCB/RB, but, to be fair, we'd be in a stronger position if Sibbick was performing better - I'd probably say the same for Atkinson - we might have to use both on Thursday. 

I believe Atkinson was decent on Sunday apart from his goal.

Up to them if they want to claim a regular starting place.

To be more fair, Sibbick looked rubbish last season. "Let's not sign a Souttar replacement because we've got Toby Sibbick" would not have been a sound plan at any point.

I think we'll see Atkinson again on Thursday. Unfortunately I think we'll also see the Kingsley-Cochrane partnership at CB. 

[paranoid android]

32 minutes ago, DC92 said:

To be more fair, Sibbick looked rubbish last season. "Let's not sign a Souttar replacement because we've got Toby Sibbick" would not have been a sound plan at any point.

I think we'll see Atkinson again on Thursday. Unfortunately I think we'll also see the Kingsley-Cochrane partnership at CB. 

Although, if Halliday is injured, Cochrane might have to move to LB. 

I think I'd actually prefer that, tbh. 

Edited October 10, 2022 by paranoid android

[topcat(The most tip top)]

12 minutes ago, DC92 said:

To be more fair, Sibbick looked rubbish last season. "Let's not sign a Souttar replacement because we've got Toby Sibbick" would not have been a sound plan at any point.

I think we'll see Atkinson again on Thursday. Unfortunately I think we'll also see the Kingsley-Cochrane partnership at CB. 

Wasn't Kye Rowles the Souttar replacement? 

Although replacing Souttar's injury problems probably wasn't part of the plan

[Tony Wonder]

Sibbick is nowhere near as bad as made out. He's made mistakes, but he'd still be a better option than Neilson or playing 3 left backs in a 4 at this point. However, the fact he never played yesterday and never even came on when we got an injury suggests Neilson just isn't entertaining the thought of playing him just now.

[DC92]

55 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Wasn't Kye Rowles the Souttar replacement? 

Although replacing Souttar's injury problems probably wasn't part of the plan

Souttar played almost all his games last season on the right of a back three, occasionally in the middle of a three and occasionally on the right of a two. Kye Rowles has only played on the left of a two or the left of a three for us. There's no overlap there, so I would say no.

Even if he is the Souttar replacement, who is the Moore replacement? Moore wasn't up to much, but he was reasonably experienced cover and he also filled in at right-back when needed.

Even with the better options we had last season, we looked really vulnerable and lacking in out-and-out defenders when Souttar and Halkett were both out. Despite the significantly increased budget, the difference without Halkett and Rowles this season is even more acute.

[DC92]

11 minutes ago, Tony Wonder said:

Sibbick is nowhere near as bad as made out. He's made mistakes, but he'd still be a better option than Neilson or playing 3 left backs in a 4 at this point. However, the fact he never played yesterday and never even came on when we got an injury suggests Neilson just isn't entertaining the thought of playing him just now.

Better than playing three left-backs? Probably. Better than Neilson? Maybe. 

Making the odd mistake like not clearing his lines in the semi-final is one thing. Frequently getting caught out of position or letting men run off him is another. He's also not particularly great in the air or on the ball, so I'm not seeing it. There are probably benchwarmers in the bottom 6 who'd do a better job.

He's been less bad in the middle of a three so I might be tempted to play him there on Thursday with Kingsley and Smith (if fit) either side and Cochrane and Atkinson at wing-back. Devlin, Grant and Kio/Halliday in midfield and Humphrys and Shankland up front. I still don't see that team averting another hammering though.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

51 minutes ago, DC92 said:

Even if he is the Souttar replacement, who is the Moore replacement? Moore wasn't up to much, but he was reasonably experienced cover and he also filled in at right-back when needed.

 

Good point, I didn't anticipate missing Taylor Moore quite as much as I do

[Falcor Roar]

I think Neilson's strength is training a team that can move the ball forward at speed, who can vary the means of attack either by balls over the top from midfield or working it out to the wings. Thinking about most of last season, thinking about the first half vs Zurich at home where we had them truly rattled. We've got quality in Shankland, as good a set of wingers as I've seen for a long time, a good mixture of midfielders who can do different things. Another striker would have been handy but hey ho.

I couldn't agree more with DC92 with regards the defence. It was the same as the Championship season, make do with a totally finished Berra and bring in the Romanian jobber who couldn't get a game at st mirren. It could have ended in disaster if it wasn't for Gordon. It's an utter bizarre blind spot he has.

You don't get good sides who are dreadful at the back. The defence dictates shape with and without the ball. It starts the moves, it permeates the confidence you need to play good football. We were obviously a couple of injuries away from disaster and it's predictably come to pass. The excuses were laughable. There were improved players at cb out there, we just failed to find them. If you can't find anyone better then you at least bring in cover. All teams need to do is drift a cross into our box and you'll get chances.

And Sibbick is all at sea in defence that much is clear even to Neilson. He doesn't have the ability to track markers or position himself.

Having said all this we're within touching distance of a poor hibs side in third who have not played Celtic yet so we've done well all incompetence considered.

[Stylish Kid]

I've said this before, but I think TS was purchased as a long term replacement for Souttar, however based on his form this season (and there has been some bad luck there too!), he's been low on confidence and isn't really in RN's thoughts. However, given the state of playing 2 LB's in CB and a midfielder at LB, surely would have been worth a run out on Saturday?

McKay's miss.... I've seen it happen. I've seen worse too. Disappointed with a draw, but it shows some spirit to get back to 2-2 which we've definitely been missing.

[naegoodinthedark]

Don’t worry lads, you’ll get “back to winning ways” this weekend.