OFFICIAL HEARTS JUGGERNAUT THREAD 2020-

[Bogbrush1903]

1 hour ago, Squonk said:

To summarise the above:

When calculating how superior Aberdeen are over Hearts, ignore last season when the dons were abysmal and finished a lowly and embarrassing 10th. The early part of this season, when the dons were regularly on the receiving end of five and six goal humpings, along with the marvel of Darvel must also be airbrushed out of the picture as irrelevant, otherwise it will distort Aberdeen's supremacy.

When calculating Hearts superiority over the dons, only take account of the first few games of the season, before European football and injuries decimated the squad.

Am I doing this right?

No you're not right because you've missed the point of what I was trying to say but perhaps I didn't express it clearly enough.

I'm not saying Aberdeen are superior over Hearts or Hibs for that matter (although as @HarleyQuinnpoints out, we've had a better record in the league generally over the last ten years or so).

As in the head-to-head between the clubs show, Aberdeen and Hearts ( and to a lesser extent Hibs)usually trade punches depending on whom has the home advantage. 

I'm just saying that any one of the holy trinity can take advantage when the others aren't performing or are in a period of turmoil.

Just like this season, where Hearts had a bad run of defeats and we took advantage with a run of wins and that was enough.

That's why I don't think anyone will consolidate the third force tag any time soon.

Indeed, there has been plenty of occasions when all three clubs have been in turmoil and allowed the even smaller clubs like Motherwell to take advatage.

*In the past, I would've included Dundee United as a club that, everything being equal, should finish anywhere between 3rd-6th but they now look to be becoming a bit of a yo-yo club.

[Bogbrush1903]

1 hour ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Sandy Roy was a known rogue and scoundrel who couldn't be trusted while Bill Crombie, being from Edinburgh, was a man of impeachable honour and integrity

I've got no proof of this theory but it does fit the few facts made available to me so it seems a reasonable working hypothesis

Funnily enough, the general feeling I think is that when Colin Hendry hacked down Sandy Clark for what looked like a stonewal penalty early in the first half, Crombie's allegiances may have worked against Hearts as he didn't want to show any perceived bias.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Bogbrush1903

[VincentGuerin]

9 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

1) Hearts finished 3rd last season with Hibs and Aberdeen in the bottom six.

2) Everything being equal, who would expect Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts to be the main challengers for 3rd to 5th.

3) If two of the three clubs are having awful seasons then it should, in theory, make it easier for the third club.

4) Some Hearts fans, like you, seemed to think it was the beginning of some kind of sustained period of third force dominance.

5) The more canny observers thought that unlikely, and that either Aberdeen or Hibs or both would improve.

Although, to be fair, I wasn't one of those canny observers because we still had Goodwin in charge and Hibs had that irritating little Englishman.

1) Aberdeen and Hibs were rubbish and Hearts were quite good, yes.

2) But how often does this actually happen? Not very, because all clubs have periods when they're doing well and doing badly. It's a meaningless thing to say. Aberdeen were bottom six regulars for years and were very fortunate not to be relegated on a couple of occasions.

3) Yes. But this is the normal state of things. For example, Aberdeen's recent relative success relative to Hearts and Hibs comes on the back of Hearts being in administration and Hibs running themselves into the ground while Rangers were liquidated. This has unquestionably aided Aberdeen, who were really nowhere before 2012. And it should be pointed out for all the Aberdeen crowing, that they have one League Cup to show for this 'dominance' and are about to play group stage European football one year after Hearts. Not really that much to shout about for an era where things have all been in your favour. I think I'm right in saying Hearts finished ahead of Aberdeen in 12 of 15 seasons before that, winning three Scottish Cups in the process.

4) Medium term I still think Hearts and Hibs are much more well-placed than Aberdeen. We can do the whole stadium dance another day, but I think most observers would agree that Aberdeen face significant challenges in the medium term.

5) This canny observer was shouted down for saying Goodwin would be out by the summer while Aberdeen sat third in the league.

The overall point here is one that you've acknowledged. Clubs rely on each other failing to succeed. Rangers don't win the treble (or maybe anything) in 2003 if Celtic don't get to the UEFA Cup final. Hearts don't finish second in 2006 if Rangers don't have a bad season. Aberdeen don't finish third in 2007 if Hearts don't make insane decisions in the 18 months up to May 2007. Motherwell struggle to finish third in 2008 if any of Hearts, Hibs, or Aberdeen had properly got their shit together or if Aberdeen hadn't had the distraction of Europe that season.

It's almost never the case that a team's success is purely down to their good work.

It's just how football works. Saying Hearts were third last year because Aberdeen were bad is just utterly meaningless. Do you think Aberdeen finishing third this season is undermined by Hearts' injuries and schedule this season?

Edited May 26, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[Bogbrush1903]

28 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

1) Aberdeen and Hibs were rubbish and Hearts were quite good, yes.

2) But how often does this actually happen? Not very, because all clubs have periods when they're doing well and doing badly. It's a meaningless thing to say. Aberdeen were bottom six regulars for years and were very fortunate not to be relegated on a couple of occasions.

3) Yes. But this is the normal state of things. For example, Aberdeen's recent relative success relative to Hearts and Hibs comes on the back of Hearts being in administration and Hibs running themselves into the ground. This has unquestionably aided Aberdeen. And it should be pointed out for all the Aberdeen crowing, that they have one League Cup to show for this 'dominance' and are about to play group stage European football one year after Hearts. Not really that much to shout about for an era where things have all been in your favour. I think I'm right in saying Hearts finished ahead of Aberdeen in 12 of 15 seasons before that, winning three Scottish Cups in the process.

4) Medium term I still think Hearts and Hibs are much more well-placed than Aberdeen. We can do the whole stadium dance another day, but I think most observers would agree that Aberdeen face significant challenges in the medium term.

5) This canny observer was shouted down for saying Goodwin would be out by the summer while Aberdeen sat third in the league.

The overall point here is one that you've acknowledged. Clubs rely on each other failing to succeed. Hearts don't finish second in 2006 if Rangers don't have a bad season. Aberdeen don't finish third in 2007 if Hearts don't make insane decisions in the 18 months up to May 2007. Motherwell struggle to finish third in 2008 if any of Hearts, Hibs, or Aberdeen had properly got their shit together or if Aberdeen hadn't had the distraction of Europe that season.

It's just how football works. Saying Hearts were third last year because Aberdeen were bad is just utterly meaningless. Do you think Aberdeen finishing third this season is undermined by Hearts' injuries and schedule this season?

I seem to have uttered many "meaningless" statements

Well, as is your modus operandi, you've inferred a lot of things here that I didn't say.

I've never mentioned  anything about Aberdeen being dominant recently but they have had the upperhand in league positions over the last ten years.

Whether Hearts made the group stages a year before Aberdeen isn't relevant (and remember, Aberdeen haven't made the group stages yet until Celtic win the Cup).

What would be more relevant (financially speaking)  is if Hearts were to make the group stages in consecutive seasons, which you can still do through qualifying.

I didn't say anything about Hearts third place finish being "undermined" nor did I say that you wouldn't have finished third anyway even with a strong Aberdeen and Hibs. I just said that Hearts sealed third at a canter, in part, because they didn't have any challenge from their traditional rivals (the three clubs in the league of a similar size).

I think with the riches at stake for finishing third currently avaiable, it would be more difficult for a team outside Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs to finish third especially once each club start spending the money from European campaigns to build stronger squads but I may yet be proved wrong.

I do think a group stage European campaign will make a non-gruesome Scottish team vulnerable domestically but then I think the other teams of the trinity would take advantage.

What might be interesting though is if Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs all made the group stages in the same season.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Bogbrush1903

[VincentGuerin]

5 minutes ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

I think with the riches at stake for finishing third currently avaiable, it would be more difficult for a team outside Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs to finish third especially once each club start spending the money from European campaigns to build stronger squads but I may yet be proved wrong.

I absolutely think this will happen. It's one of the flaws of the European system. Motherwell making the group stages once a decade will make pretty much no competitive difference, but the bigger clubs doing so on top of the commercial advantages they already have will skew the league. I think we'll see less of the likes of Motherwell, Killie etc finishing third.

[Dons_1988]

It’s not one of the flaws of the European system, it is the flaw of the European system. 

I never want to see Aberdeen so far clear of other teams that they won’t compete (and that won’t happen). 

It’s a fucking shite part of modern football that there are fans out there who do desire this. 
 

[kingjoey]

F*ck*ng hell, the Hearts fans on here have taken being not as good as Aberdeen this season, and potentially not even as good as Hibs, quite badly.

[Molotov]

So some Hearts fans now blaming “injuries and schedule” for their arse collapse now?  

Hope Hibs pump them on Saturday and then Jay Henderson scores a winning goal in cup final for ICT. 

[the jambo-rocker]

We've been off it since January acting like we had it sewn up and didn't deserve it ultimately. Its shite and feels like a real missed opportunity to kick on. I can only say fair play to Aberdeen for taking advantage and enjoy your trips. You'll make some good memories this autumn, I guarantee you that much.

It's on us now to take stock and realise it's not going to be handed to us. We have a lot of things going for us and hopefully a stronger Aberdeen means a stronger and better Hearts for next season.

CBA with tomorrow mind, we have everything to lose and Hibs have everything to gain. Fucking Scott 'cream rises to the top' Bain.

[Bogbrush1903]

5 hours ago, VincentGuerin said:

I absolutely think this will happen. It's one of the flaws of the European system. Motherwell making the group stages once a decade will make pretty much no competitive difference, but the bigger clubs doing so on top of the commercial advantages they already have will skew the league. I think we'll see less of the likes of Motherwell, Killie etc finishing third.

And I don't disagree about the stadium issue for Aberdeen, it's the elephant in the room. Both Hibs and Hearts have modernised whilst we remain with a deteriorating and neglected stadium.

How can Aberdeen fund a new/rebuilt stadium but remain competitive with Hearts and Hibs? I'm not sure we can but, at the moment, we don't even know if there are any plans in the pipeline.

Or maybe we do and I've lost track of what has become a very tedious issue that has rumbled on for years.

[kingjoey]

I think that on the league table for season 2022/23, Hearts should get an *. Underneath the table should be;

* only fifth because of playing in excess European ties, injuries, managerial incompetency and teams finishing above them winning too many games.

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, kingjoey said:

I think that on the league table for season 2022/23, Hearts should get an *. Underneath the table should be;

* only fifth because of playing in excess European ties, injuries, managerial incompetency and teams finishing above them winning too many games.

*finished 3rd in January but league table distorted by robbie neilsons tactics and a reliance on Robert snodgrass 

[Frank Grimes]

This thread 

 

 

[kingjoey]

When is someone going to change "juggernaut" to "charabanc" in the thread title?

[Squonk]

17 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

When is someone going to change "juggernaut" to "charabanc" in the thread title?

Shortly after 'The Famous Aberdeen' thread becomes 'The Darvelous Dons' thread.

[Hoose Rice]

27 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

When is someone going to change "juggernaut" to "charabanc" in the thread title?

Around 14:30 today. 

[kingjoey]

16 minutes ago, Squonk said:

Shortly after 'The Famous Aberdeen' thread becomes 'The Darvelous Dons' thread.

Good attempt. You do realise that your team finished below the team that lost to Darvel?

Edited May 27, 2023 by kingjoey

[lennyzer0]

8 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Good attempt. You do realise that your team finished below the team that lost to Darvel?

I'm not sure that's how slagging a team for the worst cup result in the history of the cup works.

 

PS Thanks for taking that particular record off of us so quickly. Much appreciated.

[kingjoey]

15 minutes ago, lennyzer0 said:

I'm not sure that's how slagging a team for the worst cup result in the history of the cup works.

 

PS Thanks for taking that particular record off of us so quickly. Much appreciated.

It was a pleasure and it solidified our "famous" tag.

[Dons_1988]

20 minutes ago, lennyzer0 said:

I'm not sure that's how slagging a team for the worst cup result in the history of the cup works.

 

PS Thanks for taking that particular record off of us so quickly. Much appreciated.

I’m not sure Brora beating a struggling championship side even really registered tbh.