craigkillie Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) League Cup confirmed as following the same format as usual. All 42 SPFL clubs have agreed to participate and Brora and Kelty have been invited. Starts on 6th October with the group stage games played during the international break. Final on 28th February. https://spfl.co.uk/news/betfred-cup-dates-confirmed Edited July 20, 2020 by craigkillie 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDD Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 The gap between top flight and lower leagues could be exacerbated even further by dint of the premiership sides having an 8/9 game head-start. One would presume, though, that a lot if not all of the top flight sides will use this as an opportunity to get competitive game time into the legs of their fringe players ahead of a period when they are going to be needed, with congested fixtures and injuries likely to take a toll. How great is it that all 42 clubs appear to be making it through to the other side of this pandemic though? Let's hope that situation holds through autumn/winter. Encouraging, nonetheless. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 Some of the top flight clubs will have a handful of players away on international duty too - probably only one or two at most clubs, but it could level the playing field a little bit more. However, I agree and I do expect a few absolute drubbings to be dished out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djchapsticks Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 The great equaliser in league cup games is that all players, regardless of level are a bit rusty in mid-July. Several squads are being built and not quite completed yet either. This not only removes this equaliser, but actually tips even further in favour of Premier league teams as lower league sides will still be in pre-season and Premier league sides won't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDD Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 35 minutes ago, craigkillie said: Some of the top flight clubs will have a handful of players away on international duty too - probably only one or two at most clubs, but it could level the playing field a little bit more. However, I agree and I do expect a few absolute drubbings to be dished out. Are the european representatives going to be missing from this as per, or is that changing due to the later start? I imagine the top flight sides will play their squad/fringe players, it would be a sensible move. Even so, think you're right about some absolute doings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phillips455 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 24 minutes ago, AndyDD said: Are the european representatives going to be missing from this as per, or is that changing due to the later start? I imagine the top flight sides will play their squad/fringe players, it would be a sensible move. Even so, think you're right about some absolute doings. The 4 European Qualifer sides (Celtic, Rangers Motherwell & Aberdeen) will avoid the group stage section as its still the same set-up but delayed to october. The 8 group winners, 4 best runners-up and the european teams makes up the next round. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) I assume the only shuffle needed from last season is to account for the south side losing a team (Berwick Rangers), because Kilmarnock will simply replace Motherwell. Under normal circumstances, I'd have expected them to push Stenhousemuir into the South, but I wonder if they might move Hearts instead so that every group has a Premiership team and, perhaps more importantly, there's no group that has two? That would give (assuming I've got this right): North Top seeds St Johnstone Hibernian Ross County Dundee Utd Second seeds Inverness CT Dundee Arbroath Alloa Athletic Unseeded Raith Rovers Montrose East Fife Peterhead Forfar Athletic Cove Rangers Elgin City Cowdenbeath Stirling Albion Stenhousemuir Brechin City Brora Rangers South Top seeds Livingston Kilmarnock St Mirren Hamilton Second Seeds Hearts Ayr Utd Dunfermline Athletic Greenock Morton Unseeded Queen of the South Partick Thistle Falkirk Airdrie Dumbarton Clyde Stranraer Edinburgh City Queen's Park Annan Athletic Albion Rovers Kelty Hearts If they do move Stenhousemuir, then Hearts go into the top seeds of the North, displacing Dundee Utd into the second, and Alloa into unseeded; the south would see Queen of the South move into the second seeds. Edit: of course, if they did move Hearts then the obvious accusations would come pouring out of Tynecastle... Edited July 20, 2020 by The Master 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDD Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 11 minutes ago, Phillips455 said: The 4 European Qualifer sides (Celtic, Rangers Motherwell & Aberdeen) will avoid the group stage section as its still the same set-up but delayed to october. The 8 group winners, 4 best runners-up and the european teams makes up the next round. Thought as much; in that case, don't see many international call ups having an impact. Well this is me basing it entirely on Scotland, suppose there might be players eligible for other nations in the premier league sides who didn't make europe. Shankland is the only likely Scotland cap I can think of as being impacted here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djchapsticks Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, The Master said: I assume the only shuffle needed from last season is to account for the south side losing a team (Berwick Rangers), because Kilmarnock will simply replace Motherwell. Under normal circumstances, I'd have expected them to push Stenhousemuir into the South, but I wonder if they might move Hearts instead so that every group has a Premiership team and, perhaps more importantly, there's no group that has two? That would give (assuming I've got this right): North Top seeds St Johnstone Hibernian Ross County Dundee Utd Second seeds Inverness CT Dundee Arbroath Alloa Athletic Unseeded Raith Rovers Montrose East Fife Peterhead Forfar Athletic Cove Rangers Elgin City Cowdenbeath Stirling Albion Stenhousemuir Brechin City Brora Rangers South Top seeds Livingston Kilmarnock St Mirren Hamilton Second Seeds Hearts Ayr Utd Dunfermline Athletic Greenock Morton Unseeded Queen of the South Partick Thistle Falkirk Airdrie Dumbarton Clyde Stranraer Edinburgh City Queen's Park Annan Athletic Albion Rovers Kelty Hearts St. Mirren, Hearts, Partick Thistle, Stranraer and Kelty Hearts would be perfect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshmallo Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 In an ideal world we get the worst possible teams St Mirren Ayr Annan Albion Rovers -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 49 minutes ago, The Master said: Under normal circumstances, I'd have expected them to push Stenhousemuir into the South, but I wonder if they might move Hearts instead so that every group has a Premiership team and, perhaps more importantly, there's no group that has two? That would give (assuming I've got this right): ... If they do move Stenhousemuir, then Hearts go into the top seeds of the North, displacing Dundee Utd into the second, and Alloa into unseeded; the south would see Queen of the South move into the second seeds. Edit: of course, if they did move Hearts then the obvious accusations would come pouring out of Tynecastle... I think you've got the process for seeding confused here. They decide on Pot 1 and Pot 2 first, based entirely on league finish, and then divide each of those into four north and four south. After that they divide the remaining teams into north and south. So Stenhousemuir moving from north to south will have no impact on Hearts or any of the other seeded clubs. Additionally. seeding is based on last season's finishes, so Hearts will be top seeds and Dundee United second seeds. Last year Dundee were top seeds last year and Ross County were second, which is how County ended up in the same group as St Johnstone. Similarly, the previous year Killie were in the same group as St Mirren, in the previous year County and Hibs were and in the first year Motherwell and Rangers were. Therefore I'd expect the groupings to actually be: North Pot 1: St Johnstone, Hibs, Ross County, Hearts Pot 2: Dundee United, Inverness, Dundee, Arbroath Unseeded: Raith Rovers, Montrose, East Fife, Peterhead, Forfar Athletic, Cove Rangers, Elgin City, Cowdenbeath, Stirling Albion, Stenhousemuir, Brechin City, Brora Rangers South Pot 1: Livingston, Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Hamilton Pot 2: Ayr United, Dunfermline, Greenock Morton, Alloa Athletic Unseeded: Queen of the South, Partick Thistle, Falkirk, Airdrie, Dumbarton, Clyde, Stranraer, Edinburgh City, Queen's Park, Annan Athletic, Albion Rovers, Kelty Hearts 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
true_rover Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 I assume the only shuffle needed from last season is to account for the south side losing a team (Berwick Rangers), because Kilmarnock will simply replace Motherwell. Under normal circumstances, I'd have expected them to push Stenhousemuir into the South, but I wonder if they might move Hearts instead so that every group has a Premiership team and, perhaps more importantly, there's no group that has two? That would give (assuming I've got this right): North Top seeds St Johnstone Hibernian Ross County Dundee Utd Second seeds Inverness CT Dundee Arbroath Alloa Athletic Unseeded Raith Rovers Montrose East Fife Peterhead Forfar Athletic Cove Rangers Elgin City Cowdenbeath Stirling Albion Stenhousemuir Brechin City Brora Rangers South Top seeds Livingston Kilmarnock St Mirren Hamilton Second Seeds Hearts Ayr Utd Dunfermline Athletic Greenock Morton Unseeded Queen of the South Partick Thistle Falkirk Airdrie Dumbarton Clyde Stranraer Edinburgh City Queen's Park Annan Athletic Albion Rovers Kelty Hearts If they do move Stenhousemuir, then Hearts go into the top seeds of the North, displacing Dundee Utd into the second, and Alloa into unseeded; the south would see Queen of the South move into the second seeds. Edit: of course, if they did move Hearts then the obvious accusations would come pouring out of Tynecastle...Surely Kelty would be in the North section rather than Cowdenbeath or Raith as it's (just) further north than both? Or is there a rule that the Lowland League teams goes into the South whatever? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, true_rover said: Surely Kelty would be in the North section rather than Cowdenbeath or Raith as it's (just) further north than both? Or is there a rule that the Lowland League teams goes into the South whatever? I hadn't actually thought of that - just assumed they would. If they did go north it would be Stenhousemuir who would be sent south, as the southernmost "north" team. Edited July 20, 2020 by craigkillie 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted July 20, 2020 Author Share Posted July 20, 2020 1 hour ago, AndyDD said: Thought as much; in that case, don't see many international call ups having an impact. Well this is me basing it entirely on Scotland, suppose there might be players eligible for other nations in the premier league sides who didn't make europe. Shankland is the only likely Scotland cap I can think of as being impacted here. I am expecting Stuart Findlay to be in the Scotland squad if he's fit, and there's an outside chance of Brophy being in there given that he's been called up a couple of times before. Livi will be expecting Dykes to be away with Scotland if he chooses to play for us (and probably with Australia otherwise if they have a game). Hearts might be without Gordon or Naismith (or even Souttar), though I doubt any of them will be called up with no competitive games behind them. There are also UEFA U21 games scheduled, and as you say, there are other countries to think about. Looking down the current squads I'd say the following players are at risk of being away for each club (based on them having been called up semi-recently): Livingston: McCrorie, Dykes, Menga, Ambrose, Lawson. St Johnstone: Wotherspoon, McCann. Hibs: Marciano, Porteous, Boyle, Kamberi, Gullan, Mackie Killie: Brophy, Findlay Ross County: Kelly, Shaw St Mirren: McCarthy, Magennis, McAllister Hamilton: Smith Dundee United: Shankland, Appere Hearts: Gordon, Smith, Souttar, Washington, Naismith, Uche, Brandon, Moore, Boyce, Burns, Morrison, Irving, Hickey Ayr: Harvie Dunfermline: Wilson That's obviously before any new signings come in too. So there is likely to be some mild levelling of the playing field in that respect, though Hearts appear to have the worst of both worlds given that they'll possibly be missing more players than anyone else yet won't have started their season either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyDD Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 @craigkillie yeah that's a fair point well made, when you consider the youth levels in particular. I'm in agreement with you about Findlay, I rather daftly overlooked him earlier when going off the top of my head. I'd expect there's a fair chance of it being either or when it comes to Dykes and Brophy and like you I don't anticipate Hearts players being called up, especially if the September internationals go well for Scotland, but then again much of who will or won't get a call will depend on myriad factors including form in the early part of the season. It could be a much more significant handicap than I'd first anticipated. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, craigkillie said: I think you've got the process for seeding confused here. They decide on Pot 1 and Pot 2 first, based entirely on league finish, and then divide each of those into four north and four south. After that they divide the remaining teams into north and south. So Stenhousemuir moving from north to south will have no impact on Hearts or any of the other seeded clubs. You're right, I was confused by the seeding system. I can see why it's done that way, although there is a chance it could create geographical anomalies in future (the current situation of Hearts/Hibs and Edinburgh City being in different halves notwithstanding). It's not entirely unrealistic that the bottom 8 of the Premiership becomes highly skewed towards one region or the other. Hearts moving into the second seeds was only based on my incorrect understanding of how the seeds were determined. It does mean the north section will have one "group of death" with two Premiership teams and one somewhat more open group consisting of only lower-league teams. This of course will always happen in one of the sections due to the previous season being used for seeding, but the lack of level playing field will make it more pronounced this season, I think. Edited July 20, 2020 by The Master 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludo*1 Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) I realise this is still a long way off but when will the draw likely be? Absolutely starved of football. ETA: I know the statement says 'in due course'. Edited July 20, 2020 by Ludo*1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forest_Fifer Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I think you've got the process for seeding confused here. They decide on Pot 1 and Pot 2 first, based entirely on league finish, and then divide each of those into four north and four south. After that they divide the remaining teams into north and south. So Stenhousemuir moving from north to south will have no impact on Hearts or any of the other seeded clubs. Additionally. seeding is based on last season's finishes, so Hearts will be top seeds and Dundee United second seeds. Last year Dundee were top seeds last year and Ross County were second, which is how County ended up in the same group as St Johnstone. Similarly, the previous year Killie were in the same group as St Mirren, in the previous year County and Hibs were and in the first year Motherwell and Rangers were. Therefore I'd expect the groupings to actually be: North Pot 1: St Johnstone, Hibs, Ross County, Hearts Pot 2: Dundee United, Inverness, Dundee, Arbroath Unseeded: Raith Rovers, Montrose, East Fife, Peterhead, Forfar Athletic, Cove Rangers, Elgin City, Cowdenbeath, Stirling Albion, Stenhousemuir, Brechin City, Brora Rangers South Pot 1: Livingston, Kilmarnock, St Mirren, Hamilton Pot 2: Ayr United, Dunfermline, Greenock Morton, Alloa Athletic Unseeded: Queen of the South, Partick Thistle, Falkirk, Airdrie, Dumbarton, Clyde, Stranraer, Edinburgh City, Queen's Park, Annan Athletic, Albion Rovers, Kelty HeartsHearts, Dundee United, Raith Rovers, Cove and Brora please... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DAVIDB69 Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 Does this put paid to the challenge cup with some of the dates involved 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RossBFaeDundee Posted July 21, 2020 Share Posted July 21, 2020 I would rather not have a derby where it's our first competitive game against them 2 months into proper football, thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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