Cancel culture

[JMDP]

23 minutes ago, GiGi said:

Been on P&B for 13 years and have no idea, please explain 12 Ruel Street.

I'm sketchy on the specifics but someone (a clyde fan I think) got a bit heated over an argument on here and wanted a scrap with the other poster and told them to come to 12 Ruel Street and "bring yer maw".

I think this is right but someone with a better memory might correct me. 

[Mark Connolly]

15 minutes ago, JMDP said:

I'm sketchy on the specifics but someone (a clyde fan I think) got a bit heated over an argument on here and wanted a scrap with the other poster and told them to come to 12 Ruel Street and "bring yer maw".

I think this is right but someone with a better memory might correct me. 

Surprised this post got a red coloured circle, because it's pretty accurate.

[GiGi]

32 minutes ago, JMDP said:

I'm sketchy on the specifics but someone (a clyde fan I think) got a bit heated over an argument on here and wanted a scrap with the other poster and told them to come to 12 Ruel Street and "bring yer maw".

I think this is right but someone with a better memory might correct me. 

Cheers. Sounds like early 2010s Clyde fans for sure.

[anotherchance]

If you’re passionately against things like transphobia, you need change to help defeat them, change needs consensus and to get consensus you need to get people on-side. Cancel culture is completely counter productive to that.

Instead of screaming on Twitter for folk to boycott Harry Potter, challenge her arguments. One of the good things about Twitter is that it’s an open forum - you’re probably unlikely to change JK Rowling’s mind but there’ll invariably be undecided people reading in who might be swayed by your arguments, hence consensus. Has to be better than screaming your head off and expecting that to change the world surely?

I’m left wing, but by far the most vitriol I’ve had has come from folk further left than me, when I’ve questioned whether their approach is the best one to be taking. Infuriating.

[pandarilla]

Is "Cancel culture" not just a modern day equivalent to boycotting things you didn't like? South Africa during apartheid for example, was subject to significant public boycotts across a lot of areas.
The only real issue I see with the Twitter version is that it seems there is a lot of immaturity involved across the board, and a complete lack of ability/willingness to try and see things from any perspective other than the one that you have decided to come at it from, and there is no room for any grey areas in debate, only absolutism.

Yeah pretty much this. It's definitely unhealthy when intelligent folk are in fear of speaking their minds (not in any way saying everyone on that list is intelligent but there are some important folk on it and their voices absolutely should be heard).

The fact that this letter needs to be published is a bit worrying.

Malcolm Gladwell is basically Joe Rogan for the middle class #FBPE types.

I've only ever heard him on a podcast with adam buxton and was very impressed with some of his theories on life.

No doubt someone will be along to explain how much of a c**t he is though.

Yes it's important for people to know your views on other issues or your past record on topics but holding that against them forever, and using one mistake to dismiss them entirely is such a horrible trait. It's very common on here in the politics forum. One thing from years ago means folk can be completely wiped out as a legitimate opinion.

[Shotgun]

Nicely put. The expression “cancel culture” is merely an extension of “everyone’s offended by everything”.

No, they aren’t. They’re simply calling you out on your shit when they wouldn’t have done before. 

[anotherchance]

Nicely put. The expression “cancel culture” is merely an extension of “everyone’s offended by everything”.
No, they aren’t. They’re simply calling you out on your shit when they wouldn’t have done before. 

If it stopped there, then I’d agree - it doesn’t though.

People are going off their head at JK Rowling, wanting boycotts of her books, giving her death threats and basically wanting her to be persona non grata because they disagree with her views on something. That’s a lot more than just “calling someone out” on something.

Yes, it’s a multi millionaire this time but imagine someone took a joke or throwaway remark you made on Facebook or Twitter years ago, removed all context and used it online as evidence of you being a bigot - then you get the abuse online, the death threats and the attempts to get you the sack from your job.

In a tolerant society, people get the opportunity to reflect on mistakes, apologise and better themselves as a result - there’s no incentive for them to improve themselves if they’re just cast aside.

[AL-FFC]

8 hours ago, ICTChris said:

An open letter has been published in Harper's Magazine, where a number of well known writers, journalists, academics and others have condemned what has been called 'cancel culture'.

Here is the letter

Below is a list of the signatories, I've put it in spoiler tags so the post doesnt look too weird.

 

Several people on the list have been attacked for things they have siad - most notably JK Rowling for what she has said about trans rights and women's rights.  Others include Steven Pinker, who some have sought to have removed from the Linguist Society of the US for some of his repsonses to the recent crisis.  Salman Rushdie was given a death sentence by the Iranian state for his novel the Satanic Verses, several people involved in it were murdered.  Noam Chomsky has been attacked for his advocacy of freedom of speech for Robert Faurisson, a Holocasust denier.  Margaret Atwood has been criticised for her support of a colleague who was accused of being sexually inappropriate with students.  There are probably other people on there who have similar backgrounds.

What do P&Bers think of this letter and of cancel culture in general?  Does it exist?  If it doesn't should it?

Have any P&Bers ever been cancelled?  Have you ever cancelled anyone?

I should be cancelled for being unable to use spoiler tags.  I am learning and with your support will do better.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Elliot Ackerman
Saladin Ambar, Rutgers University
Martin Amis
Anne Applebaum
Marie Arana, author
Margaret Atwood
John Banville
Mia Bay, historian
Louis Begley, writer
Roger Berkowitz, Bard College
Paul Berman, writer
Sheri Berman, Barnard College
Reginald Dwayne Betts, poet
Neil Blair, agent
David W. Blight, Yale University
Jennifer Finney Boylan, author
David Bromwich
David Brooks, columnist
Ian Buruma, Bard College
Lea Carpenter
Noam Chomsky, MIT (emeritus)
Nicholas A. Christakis, Yale University
Roger Cohen, writer
Ambassador Frances D. Cook, ret.
Drucilla Cornell, Founder, uBuntu Project
Kamel Daoud
Meghan Daum, writer
Gerald Early, Washington University-St. Louis
Jeffrey Eugenides, writer
Dexter Filkins
Federico Finchelstein, The New School
Caitlin Flanagan
Richard T. Ford, Stanford Law School
Kmele Foster
David Frum, journalist
Francis Fukuyama, Stanford University
Atul Gawande, Harvard University
Todd Gitlin, Columbia University
Kim Ghattas
Malcolm Gladwell
Michelle Goldberg, columnist
Rebecca Goldstein, writer
Anthony Grafton, Princeton University
David Greenberg, Rutgers University
Linda Greenhouse
Rinne B. Groff, playwright
Sarah Haider, activist
Jonathan Haidt, NYU-Stern
Roya Hakakian, writer
Shadi Hamid, Brookings Institution
Jeet Heer, The Nation
Katie Herzog, podcast host
Susannah Heschel, Dartmouth College
Adam Hochschild, author
Arlie Russell Hochschild, author
Eva Hoffman, writer
Coleman Hughes, writer/Manhattan Institute
Hussein Ibish, Arab Gulf States Institute
Michael Ignatieff
Zaid Jilani, journalist
Bill T. Jones, New York Live Arts
Wendy Kaminer, writer
Matthew Karp, Princeton University
Garry Kasparov, Renew Democracy Initiative
Daniel Kehlmann, writer
Randall Kennedy
Khaled Khalifa, writer
Parag Khanna, author
Laura Kipnis, Northwestern University
Frances Kissling, Center for Health, Ethics, Social Policy
Enrique Krauze, historian
Anthony Kronman, Yale University
Joy Ladin, Yeshiva University
Nicholas Lemann, Columbia University
Mark Lilla, Columbia University
Susie Linfield, New York University
Damon Linker, writer
Dahlia Lithwick, Slate
Steven Lukes, New York University
John R. MacArthur, publisher, writer
Susan Madrak, writer
Phoebe Maltz Bovy, writer
Greil Marcus
Wynton Marsalis, Jazz at Lincoln Center
Kati Marton, author
Debra Maschek, scholar
Deirdre McCloskey, University of Illinois at Chicago
John McWhorter, Columbia University
Uday Mehta, City University of New York
Andrew Moravcsik, Princeton University
Yascha Mounk, Persuasion
Samuel Moyn, Yale University
Meera Nanda, writer and teacher
Cary Nelson, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Olivia Nuzzi, New York Magazine
Mark Oppenheimer, Yale University
Dael Orlandersmith, writer/performer
George Packer
Nell Irvin Painter, Princeton University (emerita)
Greg Pardlo, Rutgers University – Camden
Orlando Patterson, Harvard University
Steven Pinker, Harvard University
Letty Cottin Pogrebin
Katha Pollitt, writer
Claire Bond Potter, The New School
Taufiq Rahim, New America Foundation
Zia Haider Rahman, writer
Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen, University of Wisconsin
Jonathan Rauch, Brookings Institution/The Atlantic
Neil Roberts, political theorist
Melvin Rogers, Brown University
Kat Rosenfield, writer
Loretta J. Ross, Smith College
J.K. Rowling
Salman Rushdie, New York University
Karim Sadjadpour, Carnegie Endowment
Daryl Michael Scott, Howard University
Diana Senechal, teacher and writer
Jennifer Senior, columnist
Judith Shulevitz, writer
Jesse Singal, journalist
Anne-Marie Slaughter
Andrew Solomon, writer
Deborah Solomon, critic and biographer
Allison Stanger, Middlebury College
Paul Starr, American Prospect/Princeton University
Wendell Steavenson, writer
Gloria Steinem, writer and activist
Nadine Strossen, New York Law School
Ronald S. Sullivan Jr., Harvard Law School
Kian Tajbakhsh, Columbia University
Zephyr Teachout, Fordham University
Cynthia Tucker, University of South Alabama
Adaner Usmani, Harvard University
Chloe Valdary
Lucía Martínez Valdivia, Reed College
Helen Vendler, Harvard University
Judy B. Walzer
Michael Walzer
Eric K. Washington, historian
Caroline Weber, historian
Randi Weingarten, American Federation of Teachers
Bari Weiss
Sean Wilentz, Princeton University
Garry Wills
Thomas Chatterton Williams, writer
Robert F. Worth, journalist and author
Molly Worthen, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Matthew Yglesias
Emily Yoffe, journalist
Cathy Young, journalist
Fareed Zakaria

Several people on the list have been attacked for things they have siad - most notably JK Rowling for what she has said about trans rights and women's rights.  Others include Steven Pinker, who some have sought to have removed from the Linguist Society of the US for some of his repsonses to the recent crisis.  Salman Rushdie was given a death sentence by the Iranian state for his novel the Satanic Verses, several people involved in it were murdered.  Noam Chomsky has been attacked for his advocacy of freedom of speech for Robert Faurisson, a Holocasust denier.  Margaret Atwood has been criticised for her support of a colleague who was accused of being sexually inappropriate with students.  There are probably other people on there who have similar backgrounds.

What do P&Bers think of this letter and of cancel culture in general?  Does it exist?  If it doesn't should it?

Have any P&Bers ever been cancelled?  Have you ever cancelled anyone?

 

 

Whilst i understand their argument effectively its the all lives matter retort when someone says black lives matter.  but at the same time if someone is getting harangued for their views then is a sort of limitation on someones freedom of speech whether you agree with their point of view or not.  Basically it is possible to read someones take on a topic acknowledge it then move on without the need to be an arsehole about the whole thing (this being both sides of it).

JK biggest problem is shes a unionist thats my issue with her

[Marshmallo]

1 hour ago, anotherchance said:

If you’re passionately against things like transphobia, you need change to help defeat them, change needs consensus and to get consensus you need to get people on-side. Cancel culture is completely counter productive to that.

Instead of screaming on Twitter for folk to boycott Harry Potter, challenge her arguments. One of the good things about Twitter is that it’s an open forum - you’re probably unlikely to change JK Rowling’s mind but there’ll invariably be undecided people reading in who might be swayed by your arguments, hence consensus. Has to be better than screaming your head off and expecting that to change the world surely?

I’m left wing, but by far the most vitriol I’ve had has come from folk further left than me, when I’ve questioned whether their approach is the best one to be taking. Infuriating.

^^^^ Dave Rubin

[pandarilla]

If it stopped there, then I’d agree - it doesn’t though.

People are going off their head at JK Rowling, wanting boycotts of her books, giving her death threats and basically wanting her to be persona non grata because they disagree with her views on something. That’s a lot more than just “calling someone out” on something.

Yes, it’s a multi millionaire this time but imagine someone took a joke or throwaway remark you made on Facebook or Twitter years ago, removed all context and used it online as evidence of you being a bigot - then you get the abuse online, the death threats and the attempts to get you the sack from your job.

In a tolerant society, people get the opportunity to reflect on mistakes, apologise and better themselves as a result - there’s no incentive for them to improve themselves if they’re just cast aside.

You've saved me posting.

It's not just 'people calling you out for stuff', and anyone claiming that I'd bring completely disingenuous.

[pandarilla]

At your service sirrah:
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/aug/09/malcolm-gladwell-how-i-ruined-best-friends-wedding
(just incredible he writes this as if he's in the right)

He doesn't write that like he's in the right, he regrets it, and he's explain the immaturity in his actions.

Surely you're not suggesting that nothing he ever says or does now matters - because of that story?

[Jacksgranda]

6 hours ago, beefybake said:

As I recall, Rowling has been the subject of physical abuse by men/or a partner.  And that's the underlying reason she's fearful of, for example, transgender people

using women's public lavatories.   Seems a valid reason for her to express that view on Twitter , or anywhere else she chooses to. 

The difference between red dotting and , for example, Twitter, is that here, everyone's 'anonymous'.

If you want to remain anonymous, don't go on Twitter.

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Damn, folk are actually losing their jobs for being bigots ?

That's a step too far, we should probably just stop calling out people for their shitty opinions. The last thing we want to do is make these people feel uncomfortable.

In the well known George Orwell book Animal Farm, 1984 was the amount of racists who lost their job due to cancel culture.

Spooky stuff.

[anotherchance]

This doesn't seem to be possible anymore according to this erstwhile ally's thread.
Moreover I'm no more going to by-your-logic someone's transphobia away as I'm going to debate away someone's racism. This is the 'exposing their arguments to sunlight' fallacy. For whatever reason this coterie have come down on the wrong side as history will judge it and dug their heels in & there really is nothing left at this stage but to call them wankers.

But then it goes back to the same thing - who’s the moral arbiter or what constitutes transphobia?

No doubt a lot of bigots are on the “feminists” side when it comes to the safe spaces debate, but then probably just as many wont be bigoted or transphobic. Cancel culture and the consequences of being associated with a narrative that acts as a shield for *some* to hide their bigotry is no use, because again - it’s stopping folk speaking up because people lump them all together.

Trans issues are a big, relatively modern concept (compared to racism) which a lot of people, especially the older generation, won’t have the first scooby about - and if you start screeching at folk at the first sign of an ignorant or naive viewpoint and brand them as bigots then you’ll get nowhere.

[Shotgun]

1 hour ago, anotherchance said:

Yes, it’s a multi millionaire this time but imagine someone took a joke or throwaway remark you made on Facebook or Twitter years ago, removed all context and used it online as evidence of you being a bigot - then you get the abuse online, the death threats and the attempts to get you the sack from your job.

 

Firstly; I have received death threats online. I've had photographs of my home posted on local forums, complete with address and the caption "Here's where an America hater lives." I've had people tell me that they'll send a few of their army buddies around to "have a chat" with me. Hell, I was once driving home from a peaceful protest when I heard a radio presenter say the police should've beaten me and my fellow protesters and thrown us in jail. The employer of one of my friends was contacted anonymously by someone from a different forum, attempting to get her the sack from her job. And the things we were speaking out against were a lot less provocative than Rowling's. But I don't recall a single conservative sticking up for us. Even the ones we thought were our friends.

So let's not fall for the narrative that this is a one way street.  In recent weeks, we've seen peaceful protesters being tear-gassed, shot with rubber bullets, beaten with nightsticks in real life, not just metaphorically online. And that was for the crime of trying to ensure that people received their rights under the law, rather than advocating people have rights taken away. When conservatives start complaining about that, I'll listen to what they have to say. And If JK Rowling thinks she's a victim, she should try talking to some trans-women and hearing what they go through every single day.

ETA: And I've just realised that I wasn't clear with my comment "Everyone's so offended by everything / No, they're calling you out". It wasn't in relation to this particular issue; it merely set my mind off in that direction. It's really a different topic. I wasn't saying that what's happened to Rowling was just "people calling her out."

Edited July 8, 2020 by Shotgun

[Gordon EF]

Is a large part of the 'anti-cancel culture' side a bunch of arseholes and opinionated 'celebrities' who are happy to dish it out and cannae take it? Yes.

Is there a significant group of primarily online liberals who over-react enormously at certain types of controversial (in the true meaning of the word) opinions or viewpoints? Yes.

Would it be nice if both groups would shut the f**k up a bit more? Absolutely.

[Shotgun]

5 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Is a large part of the 'anti-cancel culture' side a bunch of arseholes and opinionated 'celebrities' who are happy to dish it out and cannae take it? Yes.

Is there a significant group of primarily online liberals who over-react enormously at certain types of controversial (in the true meaning of the word) opinions or viewpoints? Yes.

Would it be nice if both groups would shut the f**k up a bit more? Absolutely.

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote but question the point about it being primarily online liberals who over-react to certain opinions or viewpoints. Take a look at the comments on any Yahoo news item, or political YouTube video, or any forum where conservatives gather in number you'll see the hate that is dished out towards liberals. It's only when one of their own is on the wrong end of it, that conservatives find it unacceptable.

And yes, it would be nice if both sides would shut the f**k up a bit more. So on that note...

Edited July 8, 2020 by Shotgun

[anotherchance]

Firstly; I have received death threats online. I've had photographs of my home posted on local forums, complete with address and the caption "Here's where an America hater lives." I've had people tell me that they'll send a few of their army buddies around to "have a chat" with me. Hell, I was once driving home from a peaceful protest when I heard a radio presenter say the police should've beaten me and my fellow protesters and thrown us in jail. The employer of one of my friends was contacted anonymously by someone from a different forum, attempting to get her the sack from her job. And the things we were speaking out against were a lot less provocative than Rowling's. But I don't recall a single conservative sticking up for us. Even the ones we thought were our friends.
So let's not fall for the narrative that this is a one way street.  In recent weeks, we've seen peaceful protesters being tear-gassed, shot with rubber bullets, beaten with nightsticks in real life, not just metaphorically online. And that was for the crime of trying to ensure that people received their rights under the law, rather than advocating people have rights taken away. When conservatives start complaining about that, I'll listen to what they have to say. And If JK Rowling thinks she's a victim, she should try talking to some trans-women and hearing what they go through every single day.
ETA: And I've just realised that I wasn't clear with my comment "Everyone's so offended by everything / No, they're calling you out". It wasn't in relation to this particular issue; it merely set my mind off in that direction. It's really a different topic. I wasn't saying that what's happened to Rowling was just "people calling her out."

That sounds hellish - it shouldn’t be a left/right issue though.

I want a strong left, but I want it to be inclusive and not to reject anyone because they said the wrong thing once and got “cancelled” - there has to be room to f**k up, have the opportunity it’s to reflect, then learn from it and be accepted again.

[Gordon EF]

15 minutes ago, Shotgun said:

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote but question the point about it being primarily online liberals who over-react to certain opinions or viewpoints. Take a look at the comments on any Yahoo news item, or political YouTube video, or any forum where conservatives gather in number you'll see the hate that is dished out towards liberals. It's only when one of their own is on the wrong end of it, that conservatives find it unacceptable.

And yes, it would be nice if both sides would shut the f**k up a bit more. So on that note...

Fair point. The right definitely do a slightly different flavour of this kind of shit. It's a mistake from the 'anti-cancel culture' side to portray it as an issue with liberals.

[Gordon EF]

6 minutes ago, ThatBoyRonaldo said:

This is undeniably true but unfortunately probably impossible given the incentive structures of current political discourse. I wonder if you've had a similar experience to me the last few years - I recall you were quite vocal on the indyref threads back in ~2014. I've found as time goes by I have less and less to say on social media as by the time any issue has been live for more than a few hours almost any take feels unoriginal, and arguing in bad faith with people who'll never agree with you doesn't really appeal, while neither does agreeing uncritically with a bunch of others. 

Pretty much spot on. Both online and in real life I feel like people are way more entrenched than they were even 5-10 years ago and it makes discussing things with them pointless and frustrating.