Mr. Brightside Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 Transphobes are homophobes but scared to admit it. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theroadlesstravelled Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 3 hours ago, oaksoft said: Teacher sacked 'after refusing to call schoolgirl, eight, by a boy's name' launches judicial review (msn.com) But apparently there's no such thing as Cancel Culture as we keep being reassured. It sounds like the teacher has anger issues and shouldn’t be around kids. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 It's the dismissal of people you've never met and assumption that they're acting out of nefarious motives that I don't get. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 4 minutes ago, Theroadlesstravelled said: It sounds like the teacher has anger issues and shouldn’t be around kids. Taking your culture war issues out on eight year old kids who don't even have a twitter account seems like grounds for instant disqualification for a primary school teacher to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted October 16, 2022 Share Posted October 16, 2022 1 hour ago, welshbairn said: Taking your culture war issues out on eight year old kids who don't even have a twitter account seems like grounds for instant disqualification for a primary school teacher to me. Could be even worse than that it seems 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsdad Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 4 minutes ago, oaksoft said: This is simply about making sense of what we are looking at. If you have XY chromosome you are a man and if you have XX you are a woman. If you have XY chromosomes and feel like a woman you are an feminine man. If you have XX chromosomes and feel like a man you are a masculine woman. It is simple This may be your definition. But the definition that comes from trans people themselves is different and the law is changing also to update this definition. As for your point about millenia-old definitions, I see it differently. There have always been trans and gay people but "society" kept those people from living their own lives on their own terms. Organised religion has played a big part in keeping people repressed. I for one think it is great that people (in some countries) can live freely and happily as themselves. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 8 minutes ago, oaksoft said: I've deleted my original response and replaced it with this one. This isn't about how we treat trans people. They are humans and deserve to be treated like any other. That goes without saying. This is simply about making sense of what we are looking at. If you have XY chromosome you are a man and if you have XX you are a woman. If you have XY chromosomes and feel like a woman you are an feminine man. If you have XX chromosomes and feel like a man you are a masculine woman. It is simple The complexity is coming from those who choose to change those millenia-old definitions of man and woman without having the decency to explain their new definitions and why we should simply accept them. That isn't how science works I'm afraid. You don't get to bully others into accepting your position just....because. And sacking people from their jobs over this is outrageous and will help absolutely nobody. BTW, not sure why you think I don't know any trans people. Not sure why you'd even raise that. That woman wasn’t sacked for her views. She was sacked for refusing to do what she was paid to do. No one is suggesting that she can’t hold her views, but if they are incompatible with her job something has to give. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GAD Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Sacking people for refusing to do their jobs is absolutely acceptable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWorldwideJr Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Noted trans rights supporter Oaksoft once again losing his mind at the mere mention of somebody having to respect trans peoples rights is it? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
velo army Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 15 hours ago, oaksoft said: Teacher sacked 'after refusing to call schoolgirl, eight, by a boy's name' launches judicial review (msn.com) But apparently there's no such thing as Cancel Culture as we keep being reassured. I don't normally red dot, but I came bloody close here for making me unwittingly click on a Daily Mail article. The Daily Mail's schtick is to leave out details from their articles which may divert the rage of the reader from the strawman du jour. In this case, we're told that the teacher is backed by a Christian group who help people who are "taking a stand for Jesus". Now it may be grandstanding and piggy backing by this group, but it could also be that this teacher is motivated by a more evangelical agenda that we're not being told about. Also, if the parents are supporting it, then I imagine it's not something the wean has just decided that week (as they are wont to do) but rather something that has been ongoing. In that case, the most responsible thing for a teacher to do is to go with it. To not do so would be to announce open season on said wean for all sorts of bullying. It's part of a duty of care. I have mixed feelings about this. The concept of transgenderism has been mainstream for barely a decade, and I don't think there is enough understanding and compassion for people who struggle to incorporate it into their cognitive schema of the world they inhabit. I've seen people asking good faith questions (not you, Ms Rowling) being hounded as transphobes and bigots. I'm uncomfortable with someone being banned from teaching, especially if they have a reasonably career length, as it doesn't give much opportunity for growth. On the other hand, the school has a duty to its pupils and we don't know how immune this teacher has been to any attempts to teach her about the lived experience of transgender bairns. By the looks of it, but the details are scant, she has been quite intransigent. I reckon it's obtuse to say that there is no such thing as cancel culture, but I don't think this is it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Imagine thinking, in this day and age, that openly discriminating against a child isn't a valid sacking offence [emoji23] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoDiego Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 I'm the sort of curmudgeon who would refuse to call someone Becca or Steve if their birth certificate said Rebecca or Steven, so I'd probably be out on my arse as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 2 hours ago, oaksoft said: BTW, not sure why you think I don't know any trans people. Not sure why you'd even raise that. Because this screed of absolute horseshit could only come from someone who has absolutely no idea about the lived experiences of others. I await 'I can't possibly be transist, I have trans friends!' No you don't. And if you do, and you've told them 'nah mate, you're just a masculine woman! Science!' then you certainly don't anymore. Go away. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 2 hours ago, oaksoft said: I've deleted my original response and replaced it with this one. This isn't about how we treat trans people. They are humans and deserve to be treated like any other. That goes without saying. This is simply about making sense of what we are looking at. If you have XY chromosome you are a man and if you have XX you are a woman. If you have XY chromosomes and feel like a woman you are an feminine man. If you have XX chromosomes and feel like a man you are a masculine woman. It is simple The complexity is coming from those who choose to change those millenia-old definitions of man and woman without having the decency to explain their new definitions and why we should simply accept them. That isn't how science works I'm afraid. You don't get to bully others into accepting your position just....because. And sacking people from their jobs over this is outrageous and will help absolutely nobody. BTW, not sure why you think I don't know any trans people. Not sure why you'd even raise that. No little Johnny, I'm not calling you Jane, you're not a girl, you're a girly boy. Hope you're all listening class. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 3 hours ago, oaksoft said: If you have XY chromosome you are a man and if you have XX you are a woman. If you have XY chromosomes and feel like a woman you are an feminine man. If you have XX chromosomes and feel like a man you are a masculine woman. It is simple If you have the name oaksoft, you are a complete fanny. This making up rules is easy. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawson Park Boy Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 19 hours ago, welshbairn said: Eh, you think a teacher should decide what name to call somebody's child? We don't know anything about the child and his biological history (just peeking at what nonsense you're coming up with now as your post followed mine, in case you're concerned) Let’s just wait and see what the Judicial Review has to say in this case. Coming up quite soon, I believe. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 4 hours ago, oaksoft said: I've deleted my original response and replaced it with this one. This isn't about how we treat trans people. They are humans and deserve to be treated like any other. That goes without saying. This is simply about making sense of what we are looking at. If you have XY chromosome you are a man and if you have XX you are a woman. If you have XY chromosomes and feel like a woman you are an feminine man. If you have XX chromosomes and feel like a man you are a masculine woman. It is simple The complexity is coming from those who choose to change those millenia-old definitions of man and woman without having the decency to explain their new definitions and why we should simply accept them. That isn't how science works I'm afraid. You don't get to bully others into accepting your position just....because. And sacking people from their jobs over this is outrageous and will help absolutely nobody. BTW, not sure why you think I don't know any trans people. Not sure why you'd even raise that. See this millenia old definition - when were chromosomes discovered, roughly? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrWorldwideJr Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, velo army said: I have mixed feelings about this. The concept of transgenderism has been mainstream for barely a decade, and I don't think there is enough understanding and compassion for people who struggle to incorporate it into their cognitive schema of the world they inhabit. I've seen people asking good faith questions (not you, Ms Rowling) being hounded as transphobes and bigots. I'm uncomfortable with someone being banned from teaching, especially if they have a reasonably career length, as it doesn't give much opportunity for growth. On the other hand, the school has a duty to its pupils and we don't know how immune this teacher has been to any attempts to teach her about the lived experience of transgender bairns. By the looks of it, but the details are scant, she has been quite intransigent. For me, a big problem is that transgender people are treated in our society as a 'debate', as something to have an opinion on, to be discussed and argued over as a concept. As opposed to real people who's experience the general public don't know much about and should be looking to learn more about. Its this that leads people to choosing to die on the hill of refusing to use correct pronouns or a name rather than showing a little bit of respect for the human being behind those pronouns and name. I think this is actually quite well reflected on P&B. We have a few really good threads on here where different topics are discussed and the overall atmosphere in the thread is one of learning and sharing experiences. Where people will come to ask questions and others will come to share their thoughts from having lived through similar things. I'm thinking in particular of the depression, pregnancy and autism threads. By contrast the P&B thread about transgender people is titled 'the gender debate' and the mood reflects that. Its not really a place for learning or asking questions. Its a place to argue, to ask questions purely so that you can mock the answers and for entrenched views regardless of how little knowledge of the topic you actually have. I'm not really sure how to achieve this but we need the general discourse around trans people to move away from the latter and towards the former. Part of that is that there are spaces for people to learn about being transgender, to ask questions and to get things wrong in good faith and learn from it. As you say not everybody is going to be able to get their head around it immediately. I think part of it is also acknowleding that its OK to recognise that there are people who don't have any intention of getting their head around it and no amount of patience is going to get them to a place of understanding because they don't want to understand. I suspect that if a teacher is intentionally misgendering a child under their care despite everyone asking them to stop then they probably fall into the latter group. I've linked to it before but I'd urge anyone who wants to learn a little about what its like to be transgender to take a look at the gender dysphoria bible or seek out a similar resource. I think it does a good job of describing the lived experience of dysphoria and explaining some of the more common tropes you might see. Edited October 17, 2022 by MrWorldwideJr 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boo Khaki Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 So that's Graham Norton deactivated his Twitter. No explanation whatsoever, yet all the folk previously squealing about the unfairness of certain celebrities being 'cancelled' have jumped to the conclusion that this is a self-cancelling and are busy having a mutual back-patting session over it. Yet another example of the brass-necked hypocrisy inherent in culture wars pish. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 The duality of mind and body has challenged some of western civilizations greatest thinkers for millennia from Plato through Descartes to the modern day They never really cracked it The idea that Graham Linehan or Eddie Izzard would be able to neatly sum it up in 256 characters is ludicrous 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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