The_Kincardine Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, Theroadlesstravelled said: I don't understand what she's having a meltdown about. I suspect the claim there's, "no such thing as a 'biologically male/female body" when there clearly is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 5 hours ago, The_Kincardine said: I suspect the claim there's, "no such thing as a 'biologically male/female body" when there clearly is. Well... there isn't really in the sense there is no single binary definition of male or female that doesn't exclude a surprisingly large percentage of the population. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Waldo Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 5 hours ago, The_Kincardine said: I suspect the claim there's, "no such thing as a 'biologically male/female body" when there clearly is. Ho ho. I am lookjng forward to the replies for this one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 As with most things in life I check what one of the Derry Girls are saying about it and agree with them WWDGD? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 TRT (The Right Thing)Surely they'd use funnier banter than that? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moonster Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 6 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said: What sex is an hermaphrodite? Don't know. Are they born in an hospital? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Well... there isn't really in the sense there is no single binary definition of male or female that doesn't exclude a surprisingly large percentage of the population.Wait, what?I might need a lesson here.I thought the whole thing was about the gender - but are we actually disputing whether people can have a biologically male or female body?Excuse my ignorance but do cocks and chromosomes not always match up? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 I dunno if it's really necessary to read reams of primary literature about biological sex etc. Other than checking what the Derry Girls say about stuff I think it's enough to just think it's probably good for the mental health of folk to feel a bit more accepted earlier on, and that if it's being opposed by the kind of people who oppose it, it's probably worth supporting.I love that show but that's a proper cop out mixu (kop out? - i don't think I've ever written that down).You can't deny that humans don't have a biological sex, can you?I'm happy to use whatever pronouns folk feel most comfortable with, and I'm coming round to supporting the change in legislation (not that my support matter a f**k or not). But are we supposed to pretend that things aren't things? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, pandarilla said: I love that show but that's a proper cop out mixu (kop out? - i don't think I've ever written that down). You can't deny that humans don't have a biological sex, can you? I'm happy to use whatever pronouns folk feel most comfortable with, and I'm coming round to supporting the change in legislation (not that my support matter a f**k or not). But are we supposed to pretend that things aren't things? I’m not going to pretend to be an expert, but I think the crux of the matter is that the idea that chromosomes decide whether you’re male or female is a massive simplification, and that there are many possible variations in biology which don’t neatly fit into a simple male or female binary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshmallo Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/ -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsimButtHitsASix Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 45 minutes ago, pandarilla said: Excuse my ignorance but do cocks and chromosomes not always match up? Naw. With a surprisingly high amount of mix ups. (Well it surprised me). Up to 10% of the population have at least one biological marker, of some kind, that belongs to the opposite sex. Chromosones, for example, have 16 naturally occurring variations and sometimes folk with bell ends might not have a Y chromosome and those with bobs and vagine will have one (or even two). The majority of these folk will never even know it. Then there's all sorts of other kinds of markers like skeletal structure, gonads, hormones, etc. etc. It's a separate argument to gender/gender identity but there's just no binary way to define sex in any animals outwith the abstract or the "duck test" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshmallo Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 1 hour ago, pandarilla said: But are we supposed to pretend that things aren't things? -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 I love that show but that's a proper cop out mixu (kop out? - i don't think I've ever written that down).It’s “cop” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Naw. With a surprisingly high amount of mix ups. (Well it surprised me). Up to 10% of the population have at least one biological marker, of some kind, that belongs to the opposite sex. Chromosones, for example, have 16 naturally occurring variations and sometimes folk with bell ends might not have a Y chromosome and those with bobs and vagine will have one (or even two). The majority of these folk will never even know it. Then there's all sorts of other kinds of markers like skeletal structure, gonads, hormones, etc. etc. It's a separate argument to gender/gender identity but there's just no binary way to define sex in any animals outwith the abstract or the "duck test" https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/ I’m not going to pretend to be an expert, but I think the crux of the matter is that the idea that chromosomes decide whether you’re male or female is a massive simplification, and that there are many possible variations in biology which don’t neatly fit into a simple male or female binary.Every day's a school day.Some interesting stuff in there.I can't see the 10% bit you're referring to, but certainly more people than i presumed.And it appears a majority of those folk aren't trans. But still. Like i said earlier, i knew about the debate around gender but always thought the chromosomes were clear cut (so to speak). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Marshmallo said: https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/ That article is absolute nonsense. The existence of intersex people doesn't have anything to with the trans debate and the failure of a fetus to achieve binary sex characteristics hardly proves that binary norms don't exist. The links to studies about the brain can be summed up as some things are similar and some things are different plus we don't really know what different bits of the brain definitely do. They would be as well studying height. The conclusion has absolutely nothing to do with all the multitudes of links and that come prior and the author is obviously hoping that by citing every study going the reader is impressed/exhausted into accepting their crackpot conclusion. Edited July 16, 2020 by Detournement 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Expected Detournement to be on the side of trans people given they’ve adopted a new identity and get mad when people refer to their old one 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 52 minutes ago, pandarilla said: Like i said earlier, i knew about the debate around gender but always thought the chromosomes were clear cut (so to speak). Intersex fetus's have nothing to with the trans debate. They are down to abnormalities in the womb. The vast, vast majority of trans people are not intersex and very few intersex people are trans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshmallo Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 23 minutes ago, Detournement said: That article is absolute nonsense. The existence of intersex people doesn't have anything to with the trans debate and the failure of a fetus to achieve binary sex characteristics hardly proves that binary norms don't exist. The links to studies about the brain can be summed up as some things are similar and some things are different plus we don't really know what different bits of the brain definitely do. They would be as well studying height. The conclusion has absolutely nothing to do with all the multitudes of links and that come prior and the author is obviously hoping that by citing every study going the reader is impressed/exhausted into accepting their crackpot conclusion. The reason I posted the article was that someone said "sex is binary" -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 9 minutes ago, NotThePars said: Expected Detournement to be on the side of trans people given they’ve adopted a new identity and get mad when people refer to their old one If you actual read the article it makes a throwaway claim that there are homosexual brain characteristics. Looking into that it seems to come from a single experiment into the sexual preferences of sheep from the University of Oregon. The article is nonsense. Gender is a social construct. Believing that observable biological difference within male and female populations proves that they don't exist is either bad faith or stupidity. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Marshmallo said: The reason I posted the article was that someone said "sex is binary" It is. The rate of intersex babies is around 1 in 1000. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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