ICTChris Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) An open letter has been published in Harper's Magazine, where a number of well known writers, journalists, academics and others have condemned what has been called 'cancel culture'. Here is the letter Quote A Letter on Justice and Open Debate July 7, 2020 The below letter will be appearing in the Letters section of the magazine’s October issue. We welcome responses at letters@harpers.org Our cultural institutions are facing a moment of trial. Powerful protests for racial and social justice are leading to overdue demands for police reform, along with wider calls for greater equality and inclusion across our society, not least in higher education, journalism, philanthropy, and the arts. But this needed reckoning has also intensified a new set of moral attitudes and political commitments that tend to weaken our norms of open debate and toleration of differences in favor of ideological conformity. As we applaud the first development, we also raise our voices against the second. The forces of illiberalism are gaining strength throughout the world and have a powerful ally in Donald Trump, who represents a real threat to democracy. But resistance must not be allowed to harden into its own brand of dogma or coercion—which right-wing demagogues are already exploiting. The democratic inclusion we want can be achieved only if we speak out against the intolerant climate that has set in on all sides. The free exchange of information and ideas, the lifeblood of a liberal society, is daily becoming more constricted. While we have come to expect this on the radical right, censoriousness is also spreading more widely in our culture: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. We uphold the value of robust and even caustic counter-speech from all quarters. But it is now all too common to hear calls for swift and severe retribution in response to perceived transgressions of speech and thought. More troubling still, institutional leaders, in a spirit of panicked damage control, are delivering hasty and disproportionate punishments instead of considered reforms. Editors are fired for running controversial pieces; books are withdrawn for alleged inauthenticity; journalists are barred from writing on certain topics; professors are investigated for quoting works of literature in class; a researcher is fired for circulating a peer-reviewed academic study; and the heads of organizations are ousted for what are sometimes just clumsy mistakes. Whatever the arguments around each particular incident, the result has been to steadily narrow the boundaries of what can be said without the threat of reprisal. We are already paying the price in greater risk aversion among writers, artists, and journalists who fear for their livelihoods if they depart from the consensus, or even lack sufficient zeal in agreement. This stifling atmosphere will ultimately harm the most vital causes of our time. The restriction of debate, whether by a repressive government or an intolerant society, invariably hurts those who lack power and makes everyone less capable of democratic participation. The way to defeat bad ideas is by exposure, argument, and persuasion, not by trying to silence or wish them away. We refuse any false choice between justice and freedom, which cannot exist without each other. As writers we need a culture that leaves us room for experimentation, risk taking, and even mistakes. We need to preserve the possibility of good-faith disagreement without dire professional consequences. If we won’t defend the very thing on which our work depends, we shouldn’t expect the public or the state to defend it for us. Below is a list of the signatories, I've put it in spoiler tags so the post doesnt look too weird. Several people on the list have been attacked for things they have siad - most notably JK Rowling for what she has said about trans rights and women's rights. Others include Steven Pinker, who some have sought to have removed from the Linguist Society of the US for some of his repsonses to the recent crisis. Salman Rushdie was given a death sentence by the Iranian state for his novel the Satanic Verses, several people involved in it were murdered. Noam Chomsky has been attacked for his advocacy of freedom of speech for Robert Faurisson, a Holocasust denier. Margaret Atwood has been criticised for her support of a colleague who was accused of being sexually inappropriate with students. There are probably other people on there who have similar backgrounds. What do P&Bers think of this letter and of cancel culture in general? Does it exist? If it doesn't should it? Have any P&Bers ever been cancelled? Have you ever cancelled anyone? I should be cancelled for being unable to use spoiler tags. I am learning and with your support will do better. Elliot Ackerman Saladin Ambar, Rutgers University Martin Amis Anne Applebaum Marie Arana, author Margaret Atwood John Banville Mia Bay, historian Louis Begley, writer Roger Berkowitz, Bard College Paul Berman, writer Sheri Berman, Barnard College Reginald Dwayne Betts, poet Neil Blair, agent David W. Blight, Yale University Jennifer Finney Boylan, author David Bromwich David Brooks, columnist Ian Buruma, Bard College Lea Carpenter Noam Chomsky, MIT (emeritus) Nicholas A. Christakis, Yale University Roger Cohen, writer Ambassador Frances D. Cook, ret. Drucilla Cornell, Founder, uBuntu Project Kamel Daoud Meghan Daum, writer Gerald Early, Washington University-St. Louis Jeffrey Eugenides, writer Dexter Filkins Federico Finchelstein, The New School Caitlin Flanagan Richard T. Ford, Stanford Law School Kmele Foster David Frum, journalist Francis Fukuyama, Stanford University Atul Gawande, Harvard University Todd Gitlin, Columbia University Kim Ghattas Malcolm Gladwell Michelle Goldberg, columnist Rebecca Goldstein, writer Anthony Grafton, Princeton University David Greenberg, Rutgers University Linda Greenhouse Rinne B. Groff, playwright Sarah Haider, activist Jonathan Haidt, NYU-Stern Roya Hakakian, writer Shadi Hamid, Brookings Institution Jeet Heer, The Nation Katie Herzog, podcast host Susannah Heschel, Dartmouth College Adam Hochschild, author Arlie Russell Hochschild, author Eva Hoffman, writer Coleman Hughes, writer/Manhattan Institute Hussein Ibish, Arab Gulf States Institute Michael Ignatieff Zaid Jilani, journalist Bill T. Jones, New York Live Arts Wendy Kaminer, writer Matthew Karp, Princeton University Garry Kasparov, Renew Democracy Initiative Daniel Kehlmann, writer Randall Kennedy Khaled Khalifa, writer Parag Khanna, author Laura Kipnis, Northwestern University Frances Kissling, Center for Health, Ethics, Social Policy Enrique Krauze, historian Anthony Kronman, Yale University Joy Ladin, Yeshiva University Nicholas Lemann, Columbia University Mark Lilla, Columbia University Susie Linfield, New York University Damon Linker, writer Dahlia Lithwick, Slate Steven Lukes, New York University John R. MacArthur, publisher, writer Susan Madrak, writer Phoebe Maltz Bovy, writer Greil Marcus Wynton Marsalis, Jazz at Lincoln Center Kati Marton, author Debra Maschek, scholar Deirdre McCloskey, University of Illinois at Chicago John McWhorter, Columbia University Uday Mehta, City University of New York Andrew Moravcsik, Princeton University Yascha Mounk, Persuasion Samuel Moyn, Yale University Meera Nanda, writer and teacher Cary Nelson, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Olivia Nuzzi, New York Magazine Mark Oppenheimer, Yale University Dael Orlandersmith, writer/performer George Packer Nell Irvin Painter, Princeton University (emerita) Greg Pardlo, Rutgers University – Camden Orlando Patterson, Harvard University Steven Pinker, Harvard University Letty Cottin Pogrebin Katha Pollitt, writer Claire Bond Potter, The New School Taufiq Rahim, New America Foundation Zia Haider Rahman, writer Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen, University of Wisconsin Jonathan Rauch, Brookings Institution/The Atlantic Neil Roberts, political theorist Melvin Rogers, Brown University Kat Rosenfield, writer Loretta J. Ross, Smith College J.K. Rowling Salman Rushdie, New York University Karim Sadjadpour, Carnegie Endowment Daryl Michael Scott, Howard University Diana Senechal, teacher and writer Jennifer Senior, columnist Judith Shulevitz, writer Jesse Singal, journalist Anne-Marie Slaughter Andrew Solomon, writer Deborah Solomon, critic and biographer Allison Stanger, Middlebury College Paul Starr, American Prospect/Princeton University Wendell Steavenson, writer Gloria Steinem, writer and activist Nadine Strossen, New York Law School Ronald S. Sullivan Jr., Harvard Law School Kian Tajbakhsh, Columbia University Zephyr Teachout, Fordham University Cynthia Tucker, University of South Alabama Adaner Usmani, Harvard University Chloe Valdary Lucía Martínez Valdivia, Reed College Helen Vendler, Harvard University Judy B. Walzer Michael Walzer Eric K. Washington, historian Caroline Weber, historian Randi Weingarten, American Federation of Teachers Bari Weiss Sean Wilentz, Princeton University Garry Wills Thomas Chatterton Williams, writer Robert F. Worth, journalist and author Molly Worthen, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Matthew Yglesias Emily Yoffe, journalist Cathy Young, journalist Fareed Zakaria Several people on the list have been attacked for things they have siad - most notably JK Rowling for what she has said about trans rights and women's rights. Others include Steven Pinker, who some have sought to have removed from the Linguist Society of the US for some of his repsonses to the recent crisis. Salman Rushdie was given a death sentence by the Iranian state for his novel the Satanic Verses, several people involved in it were murdered. Noam Chomsky has been attacked for his advocacy of freedom of speech for Robert Faurisson, a Holocasust denier. Margaret Atwood has been criticised for her support of a colleague who was accused of being sexually inappropriate with students. There are probably other people on there who have similar backgrounds. What do P&Bers think of this letter and of cancel culture in general? Does it exist? If it doesn't should it? Have any P&Bers ever been cancelled? Have you ever cancelled anyone? Edited July 8, 2020 by ICTChris 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Shandon Par Posted July 8, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted July 8, 2020 Just now, ICTChris said: An open letter has been published in Harper's Magazine, where a number of well known writers, journalists, academics and others have condemned what has been called 'cancel culture'. Here is the letter Here is a list of the signatories, I've put it in spoiler tags so the post doesnt look too weird. Reveal hidden contents Elliot Ackerman Saladin Ambar, Rutgers University Martin Amis Anne Applebaum Marie Arana, author Margaret Atwood John Banville Mia Bay, historian Louis Begley, writer Roger Berkowitz, Bard College Paul Berman, writer Sheri Berman, Barnard College Reginald Dwayne Betts, poet Neil Blair, agent David W. Blight, Yale University Jennifer Finney Boylan, author David Bromwich David Brooks, columnist Ian Buruma, Bard College Lea Carpenter Noam Chomsky, MIT (emeritus) Nicholas A. Christakis, Yale University Roger Cohen, writer Ambassador Frances D. Cook, ret. Drucilla Cornell, Founder, uBuntu Project Kamel Daoud Meghan Daum, writer Gerald Early, Washington University-St. Louis Jeffrey Eugenides, writer Dexter Filkins Federico Finchelstein, The New School Caitlin Flanagan Richard T. Ford, Stanford Law School Kmele Foster David Frum, journalist Francis Fukuyama, Stanford University Atul Gawande, Harvard University Todd Gitlin, Columbia University Kim Ghattas Malcolm Gladwell Michelle Goldberg, columnist Rebecca Goldstein, writer Anthony Grafton, Princeton University David Greenberg, Rutgers University Linda Greenhouse Rinne B. Groff, playwright Sarah Haider, activist Jonathan Haidt, NYU-Stern Roya Hakakian, writer Shadi Hamid, Brookings Institution Jeet Heer, The Nation Katie Herzog, podcast host Susannah Heschel, Dartmouth College Adam Hochschild, author Arlie Russell Hochschild, author Eva Hoffman, writer Coleman Hughes, writer/Manhattan Institute Hussein Ibish, Arab Gulf States Institute Michael Ignatieff Zaid Jilani, journalist Bill T. Jones, New York Live Arts Wendy Kaminer, writer Matthew Karp, Princeton University Garry Kasparov, Renew Democracy Initiative Daniel Kehlmann, writer Randall Kennedy Khaled Khalifa, writer Parag Khanna, author Laura Kipnis, Northwestern University Frances Kissling, Center for Health, Ethics, Social Policy Enrique Krauze, historian Anthony Kronman, Yale University Joy Ladin, Yeshiva University Nicholas Lemann, Columbia University Mark Lilla, Columbia University Susie Linfield, New York University Damon Linker, writer Dahlia Lithwick, Slate Steven Lukes, New York University John R. MacArthur, publisher, writer Susan Madrak, writer Phoebe Maltz Bovy, writer Greil Marcus Wynton Marsalis, Jazz at Lincoln Center Kati Marton, author Debra Maschek, scholar Deirdre McCloskey, University of Illinois at Chicago John McWhorter, Columbia University Uday Mehta, City University of New York Andrew Moravcsik, Princeton University Yascha Mounk, Persuasion Samuel Moyn, Yale University Meera Nanda, writer and teacher Cary Nelson, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Olivia Nuzzi, New York Magazine Mark Oppenheimer, Yale University Dael Orlandersmith, writer/performer George Packer Nell Irvin Painter, Princeton University (emerita) Greg Pardlo, Rutgers University – Camden Orlando Patterson, Harvard University Steven Pinker, Harvard University Letty Cottin Pogrebin Katha Pollitt, writer Claire Bond Potter, The New School Taufiq Rahim, New America Foundation Zia Haider Rahman, writer Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen, University of Wisconsin Jonathan Rauch, Brookings Institution/The Atlantic Neil Roberts, political theorist Melvin Rogers, Brown University Kat Rosenfield, writer Loretta J. Ross, Smith College J.K. Rowling Salman Rushdie, New York University Karim Sadjadpour, Carnegie Endowment Daryl Michael Scott, Howard University Diana Senechal, teacher and writer Jennifer Senior, columnist Judith Shulevitz, writer Jesse Singal, journalist Anne-Marie Slaughter Andrew Solomon, writer Deborah Solomon, critic and biographer Allison Stanger, Middlebury College Paul Starr, American Prospect/Princeton University Wendell Steavenson, writer Gloria Steinem, writer and activist Nadine Strossen, New York Law School Ronald S. Sullivan Jr., Harvard Law School Kian Tajbakhsh, Columbia University Zephyr Teachout, Fordham University Cynthia Tucker, University of South Alabama Adaner Usmani, Harvard University Chloe Valdary Lucía Martínez Valdivia, Reed College Helen Vendler, Harvard University Judy B. Walzer Michael Walzer Eric K. Washington, historian Caroline Weber, historian Randi Weingarten, American Federation of Teachers Bari Weiss Sean Wilentz, Princeton University Garry Wills Thomas Chatterton Williams, writer Robert F. Worth, journalist and author Molly Worthen, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Matthew Yglesias Emily Yoffe, journalist Cathy Young, journalist Fareed Zakaria Several people on the list have been attacked for things they have siad - most notably JK Rowling for what she has said about trans rights and women's rights. Others include Steven Pinker, who some have sought to have removed from the Linguist Society of the US for some of his repsonses to the recent crisis. Salman Rushdie was given a death sentence by the Iranian state for his novel the Satanic Verses, several people involved in it were murdered. Noam Chomsky has been attacked for his advocacy of freedom of speech for Robert Faurisson, a Holocasust denier. Margaret Atwood has been criticised for her support of a colleague who was accused of being sexually inappropriate with students. There are probably other people on there who have similar backgrounds. What do P&Bers think of this letter and of cancel culture in general? Does it exist? If it doesn't should it? Have any P&Bers ever been cancelled? Have you ever cancelled anyone? It's essentially people crying about red-dotting. What goes on on twitter isn't necessarily real life to the bulk of the world's population. Rowling or Linehan, for example, are no different to folk on here taking the huff when they get called out for being an obnoxious c**t. Maybe those being "cancelled" need to work on their skills of fostering inclusive debate? Twitter, for example, has (IIRC) a limited number of characters, so if you are to enter into sensitive debate then the main thing you must have is linguistic dexterity. If you simply spout an opinion that is likely to cause anger then you invite the ire of those on the other side. Rowling, for example, wrote books about a Wizard school. Lineham wrote Father Ted (yet sounds an utterly insufferable c**t to work with according to many co-writers these days). Why have they appointed themselves as authorities on issues that have fek all to do with them? It seems like egos out of control that get bruised when suddenly they stray into territory beyond their ken they can't cope when their media feed goes from fawning to vitriol. 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanius Mullarkey Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 I cancelled my subscription to Q magazine a few years ago. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shandon Par Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Looking through the list, there's just one person I could say that I "follow" in terms of reading/listening to their stuff, and this letter won't have any impact on that. Other platforms should learn from P&B and have their own 12 Ruel Street. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz FFC Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 4 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said: I cancelled my subscription to Q magazine a few years ago. Could have been you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacksgranda Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 48 minutes ago, ICTChris said: An open letter has been published in Harper's Magazine, where a number of well known writers, journalists, academics and others have condemned what has been called 'cancel culture'. Here is the letter Below is a list of the signatories, I've put it in spoiler tags so the post doesnt look too weird. Several people on the list have been attacked for things they have siad - most notably JK Rowling for what she has said about trans rights and women's rights. Others include Steven Pinker, who some have sought to have removed from the Linguist Society of the US for some of his repsonses to the recent crisis. Salman Rushdie was given a death sentence by the Iranian state for his novel the Satanic Verses, several people involved in it were murdered. Noam Chomsky has been attacked for his advocacy of freedom of speech for Robert Faurisson, a Holocasust denier. Margaret Atwood has been criticised for her support of a colleague who was accused of being sexually inappropriate with students. There are probably other people on there who have similar backgrounds. What do P&Bers think of this letter and of cancel culture in general? Does it exist? If it doesn't should it? Have any P&Bers ever been cancelled? Have you ever cancelled anyone? I should be cancelled for being unable to use spoiler tags. I am learning and with your support will do better. Hide contents Elliot Ackerman Saladin Ambar, Rutgers University Martin Amis Anne Applebaum Marie Arana, author Margaret Atwood John Banville Mia Bay, historian Louis Begley, writer Roger Berkowitz, Bard College Paul Berman, writer Sheri Berman, Barnard College Reginald Dwayne Betts, poet Neil Blair, agent David W. Blight, Yale University Jennifer Finney Boylan, author David Bromwich David Brooks, columnist Ian Buruma, Bard College Lea Carpenter Noam Chomsky, MIT (emeritus) Nicholas A. Christakis, Yale University Roger Cohen, writer Ambassador Frances D. Cook, ret. Drucilla Cornell, Founder, uBuntu Project Kamel Daoud Meghan Daum, writer Gerald Early, Washington University-St. Louis Jeffrey Eugenides, writer Dexter Filkins Federico Finchelstein, The New School Caitlin Flanagan Richard T. Ford, Stanford Law School Kmele Foster David Frum, journalist Francis Fukuyama, Stanford University Atul Gawande, Harvard University Todd Gitlin, Columbia University Kim Ghattas Malcolm Gladwell Michelle Goldberg, columnist Rebecca Goldstein, writer Anthony Grafton, Princeton University David Greenberg, Rutgers University Linda Greenhouse Rinne B. Groff, playwright Sarah Haider, activist Jonathan Haidt, NYU-Stern Roya Hakakian, writer Shadi Hamid, Brookings Institution Jeet Heer, The Nation Katie Herzog, podcast host Susannah Heschel, Dartmouth College Adam Hochschild, author Arlie Russell Hochschild, author Eva Hoffman, writer Coleman Hughes, writer/Manhattan Institute Hussein Ibish, Arab Gulf States Institute Michael Ignatieff Zaid Jilani, journalist Bill T. Jones, New York Live Arts Wendy Kaminer, writer Matthew Karp, Princeton University Garry Kasparov, Renew Democracy Initiative Daniel Kehlmann, writer Randall Kennedy Khaled Khalifa, writer Parag Khanna, author Laura Kipnis, Northwestern University Frances Kissling, Center for Health, Ethics, Social Policy Enrique Krauze, historian Anthony Kronman, Yale University Joy Ladin, Yeshiva University Nicholas Lemann, Columbia University Mark Lilla, Columbia University Susie Linfield, New York University Damon Linker, writer Dahlia Lithwick, Slate Steven Lukes, New York University John R. MacArthur, publisher, writer Susan Madrak, writer Phoebe Maltz Bovy, writer Greil Marcus Wynton Marsalis, Jazz at Lincoln Center Kati Marton, author Debra Maschek, scholar Deirdre McCloskey, University of Illinois at Chicago John McWhorter, Columbia University Uday Mehta, City University of New York Andrew Moravcsik, Princeton University Yascha Mounk, Persuasion Samuel Moyn, Yale University Meera Nanda, writer and teacher Cary Nelson, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign Olivia Nuzzi, New York Magazine Mark Oppenheimer, Yale University Dael Orlandersmith, writer/performer George Packer Nell Irvin Painter, Princeton University (emerita) Greg Pardlo, Rutgers University – Camden Orlando Patterson, Harvard University Steven Pinker, Harvard University Letty Cottin Pogrebin Katha Pollitt, writer Claire Bond Potter, The New School Taufiq Rahim, New America Foundation Zia Haider Rahman, writer Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen, University of Wisconsin Jonathan Rauch, Brookings Institution/The Atlantic Neil Roberts, political theorist Melvin Rogers, Brown University Kat Rosenfield, writer Loretta J. Ross, Smith College J.K. Rowling Salman Rushdie, New York University Karim Sadjadpour, Carnegie Endowment Daryl Michael Scott, Howard University Diana Senechal, teacher and writer Jennifer Senior, columnist Judith Shulevitz, writer Jesse Singal, journalist Anne-Marie Slaughter Andrew Solomon, writer Deborah Solomon, critic and biographer Allison Stanger, Middlebury College Paul Starr, American Prospect/Princeton University Wendell Steavenson, writer Gloria Steinem, writer and activist Nadine Strossen, New York Law School Ronald S. Sullivan Jr., Harvard Law School Kian Tajbakhsh, Columbia University Zephyr Teachout, Fordham University Cynthia Tucker, University of South Alabama Adaner Usmani, Harvard University Chloe Valdary Lucía Martínez Valdivia, Reed College Helen Vendler, Harvard University Judy B. Walzer Michael Walzer Eric K. Washington, historian Caroline Weber, historian Randi Weingarten, American Federation of Teachers Bari Weiss Sean Wilentz, Princeton University Garry Wills Thomas Chatterton Williams, writer Robert F. Worth, journalist and author Molly Worthen, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill Matthew Yglesias Emily Yoffe, journalist Cathy Young, journalist Fareed Zakaria Several people on the list have been attacked for things they have siad - most notably JK Rowling for what she has said about trans rights and women's rights. Others include Steven Pinker, who some have sought to have removed from the Linguist Society of the US for some of his repsonses to the recent crisis. Salman Rushdie was given a death sentence by the Iranian state for his novel the Satanic Verses, several people involved in it were murdered. Noam Chomsky has been attacked for his advocacy of freedom of speech for Robert Faurisson, a Holocasust denier. Margaret Atwood has been criticised for her support of a colleague who was accused of being sexually inappropriate with students. There are probably other people on there who have similar backgrounds. What do P&Bers think of this letter and of cancel culture in general? Does it exist? If it doesn't should it? Have any P&Bers ever been cancelled? Have you ever cancelled anyone? I skimmed through the list of signatories - the only two I recognised were J K Rowling & Salman Rushdie. Closer examination may reveal others, but to quote Mr McCoist "Who are these people"? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross. Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Is "Cancel culture" not just a modern day equivalent to boycotting things you didn't like? South Africa during apartheid for example, was subject to significant public boycotts across a lot of areas. The only real issue I see with the Twitter version is that it seems there is a lot of immaturity involved across the board, and a complete lack of ability/willingness to try and see things from any perspective other than the one that you have decided to come at it from, and there is no room for any grey areas in debate, only absolutism. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 My favourite part of this was that someone signed it and then retracted it because someone they didn't like had signed it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) Respect to Steven Pinker for practicing what he preaches and not letting something like running an international child trafficking ring stop you from engaging in a free exchange of ideas Edited July 8, 2020 by NotThePars 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoda Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Malcolm Gladwell is basically Joe Rogan for the middle class #FBPE types. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beefybake Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Shandon Par said: It's essentially people crying about red-dotting. What goes on on twitter isn't necessarily real life to the bulk of the world's population. Rowling or Linehan, for example, are no different to folk on here taking the huff when they get called out for being an obnoxious c**t. Maybe those being "cancelled" need to work on their skills of fostering inclusive debate? Twitter, for example, has (IIRC) a limited number of characters, so if you are to enter into sensitive debate then the main thing you must have is linguistic dexterity. If you simply spout an opinion that is likely to cause anger then you invite the ire of those on the other side. Rowling, for example, wrote books about a Wizard school. Lineham wrote Father Ted (yet sounds an utterly insufferable c**t to work with according to many co-writers these days). Why have they appointed themselves as authorities on issues that have fek all to do with them? It seems like egos out of control that get bruised when suddenly they stray into territory beyond their ken they can't cope when their media feed goes from fawning to vitriol. As I recall, Rowling has been the subject of physical abuse by men/or a partner. And that's the underlying reason she's fearful of, for example, transgender people using women's public lavatories. Seems a valid reason for her to express that view on Twitter , or anywhere else she chooses to. The difference between red dotting and , for example, Twitter, is that here, everyone's 'anonymous'. Edited July 8, 2020 by beefybake 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melanius Mullarkey Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 I must admit I looked at that list and most went "who?". Then I remembered, they're mostly c***s. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Twitter has been an absolute disaster for rich people. I'm genuinely surprised no one has tried to shut it down yet. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 13 minutes ago, yoda said: Malcolm Gladwell is basically Joe Rogan for the middle class #FBPE types. Joe Rogan doesn't take money to promote tobacco and is therefore a far better person than Gladwell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 On Salman Rushdie I've read Satanic Verses and it's pish. Obviously the all the fatwa stuff is out of order but he was 100% trying to provoke islamists. If you go out of your way to wind someone up you can't really complain about the consequences of them being wound up imo. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coprolite Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 7 minutes ago, Detournement said: On Salman Rushdie I've read Satanic Verses and it's pish. Obviously the all the fatwa stuff is out of order but he was 100% trying to provoke islamists. If you go out of your way to wind someone up you can't really complain about the consequences of them being wound up imo. Yes you can. What an idiotic thing to say. Still none the wiser as to what this cancel culture is. Appears to be twitter based so I’m assuming it’s shit for c***s. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 Just now, coprolite said: Yes you can. What an idiotic thing to say. The novel is the literary equivalent of Bruce Willis walking through Harlem with the 'I hate N*****s' sign in Die Hard 3. The guy is an idiot. Him Amis and Hitchens are three of the worst people. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Steele Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 3 hours ago, ICTChris said: an intolerance of opposing views, a vogue for public shaming and ostracism, and the tendency to dissolve complex policy issues in a blinding moral certainty. 16 minutes ago, Detournement said: On Salman Rushdie I've read Satanic Verses and it's pish. 3 minutes ago, Detournement said: The guy is an idiot. I see you missed that top bit from the letter. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 31 minutes ago, Detournement said: On Salman Rushdie I've read Satanic Verses and it's pish. Obviously the all the fatwa stuff is out of order but he was 100% trying to provoke islamists. If you go out of your way to wind someone up you can't really complain about the consequences of them being wound up imo. You can't complain about being wound up, but I think you can complain about having a death sentence imposed on you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JTS98 Posted July 8, 2020 Share Posted July 8, 2020 I've gone through the list of signatories and, while there are a number of names I'm familiar with and whose views I roughly have a good handle on, the two that stick out for me are Chomsky and Pinker, in whose general area of study I work. Both are important voices in the study of linguistics and both have been vilified for perceived mis-steps in public discourse. While I agree and disagree with aspects of both people's work, it is clear that their removal from the discussion is harmful to overall discourse in areas where people are trying to make progress. I'd add Salmon Rushdie to my list of people who may or may not be bellends, but who still have valuable things to say about life. Many posters are saying they don't know who these people are. Well, find out. 'Cancel culture' is an unhelpful phrase as it's something that is often used by people trying to downplay the influence of shouty voices on public discourse. But it is important that difficult discussions are still allowed in academia and that 'bad' voices are allowed to be heard and discussed. That's progress and it's from encountering bad ideas that good ideas are formed. My job involves writing university courses and I've had requests from universities in the UK and abroad to remove certain voices from courses. In one instance I gave up the job of writing the course involved because I felt the changes I was being asked to make in the name of avoiding offence cheapened the course to the point where I didn't want my name on it. Bad ideas are out there. Offensive ideas are out there. They should be spoken about and openly countered. They should not be avoided. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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