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12 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Even though in almost all cases it was agreed with the players and management?

And would also suggest that I'd rather PFC exist at all in a year's time than have all of the staff and players remain ongoing - were that the choice. The staff and players as far as I know are of the view that the club's survival is more important than playing on in a very questionable and uncertain environment. We looked after them over lockdown and I am very happy to see they are now, in turn, looking after the club.

So they won’t play football at all for all this season and the 6/7 month they have already missed they will be in fantastic playing condition when they come back lol 

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A pretty one-eyed view given the clubs that have withdrawn are a very small cabal that perhaps rely far too heavily on gate money.
The majority of clubs will rely on gate money, hospitality or fund raising initiatives (golf days, player of year nights etc.) none of which are currently permitted.

The majority of the clubs from the championship down will be running at a loss this season and will be relying on fans or wealthy investors to bail them out.
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35 minutes ago, football.fan said:

How many believe this season will get finished ? Or won’t get stopped for a bit. Cases are on the rise and out of control and we are only in October. December and January will be horrendous. There will be no fans in until the spring at the earliest. By that time clubs will be gone

The word is that fans in limited numbers (perhaps 10% of capacity initially) at our level will return once the latest spike is brought under control.  The Govt are already aware that it is pretty low risk and it is merely about "timing"  ie probably political.  There is also outline agreement that the game will receive funding should that not happen.  Clubs are also making arrangements regarding changing facilities, and the requirements may be slightly relaxed to make it easier.  That's what I hear from various people, let's see what happens.

Starting the season is the right thing to do, yes there will be bumps in the road, yes there may well be stoppages or other disruptions but the season will - in my opinion - carry on to a conclusion or close to one. Clubs will adapt.

Those sitting out could learn to regret their decision.

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1 minute ago, Jack Burton said:

The majority of clubs will rely on gate money, hospitality or fund raising initiatives (golf days, player of year nights etc.) none of which are currently permitted.

The majority of the clubs from the championship down will be running at a loss this season and will be relying on fans or wealthy investors to bail them out.

Many clubs continue to run their weekly lotteries which is a major source of funding, many transitioning to online. Sponsors will stand-by the vast majority of clubs, they don't want to be seen as the bad guys pulling out when clubs need them most. Last Man Standing comps still being run, etc etc.  Gate revenue as a percentage of income varies greatly from club-to-club.

A lot of clubs have already spoken to players to reduce money committments to ease the weekly outlay, some have even agreed to play for expenses only until fans return, or for free.  Clubs will adapt, they have always adapted and are pretty resiliant when it comes down to it.

Hopefully before the end of November we'll either see fans or Govt money, at least that is the expectation.  If the season needs paused for a few weeks whilst that happens then so be it.

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27 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

A pretty one-eyed view given the clubs that have withdrawn are a very small cabal that perhaps rely far too heavily on gate money.

Gate money is only a portion of the equation, perhaps 30% at most with some clubs.
Match day hospitality, match day social club income, Pie shop, half time draws being other equally if not bigger contributors combined and all that gone. How do you replace that offer cyber pie n bovrils at half time to increase their income?

Do you not think they have tried other avenues for income?

The current model is the model that works for those clubs in their communities and for many has been very succesdul I thought you would at least have had the decency to respect that before calling them a cabal and relying on gate money in what is a low grade spectator sport.

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2 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

Not entirely sure deaths are the concern as people who survive will be very quickly filling up hospital capacities. And it's not just a case of converting former gig venues into more space - you need the staff (skilled in ICU work) as well.

What on earth is that gig venues part all about? Hospitals were not overwhelmed in the UK during the first wave and no other comparable western European country has had a "second wave" that has hit March/April levels on deaths and ICU admissions despite many being significantly further along with it or even over the peak as in Spain. Sweden is flatlining right now on deaths and ICU admissions after letting the first wave run its course and not imposing a drastic lockdown and its cumulative mortality levels to date are comparable to the UK's. There is no rational reason to expect what you are describing.

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10 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

Gate money is only a portion of the equation, perhaps 30% at most with some clubs.
Match day hospitality, match day social club income, Pie shop, half time draws being other equally if not bigger contributors combined and all that gone. How do you replace that offer cyber pie n bovrils at half time to increase their income?

Do you not think they have tried other avenues for income?

The current model is the model that works for those clubs in their communities and for many has been very succesdul I thought you would at least have had the decency to respect that before calling them a cabal and relying on gate money in what is a low grade spectator sport.

Sorry, if clubs rely far too heavily on gate money and match income to pay players wages, then it's a recipe for disaster.  It's not a sustainable model.

How did they survive the regular occurances of weeks/month of postponments in winter? or the Junior fixture favourite of a run of away games for weeks on end.

Edited by Burnieman
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Sorry, if clubs rely far too heavily on gate money and match income to pay players wages, then it's a recipe for disaster.  It's not a sustainable model.
How did they survive the regular occurances of weeks/month of postponments in winter? or the Junior fixture favourite of a run of away games for weeks on end.


Clubs survived because they could plan ahead. They knew that games would get played with fans coming in at some point. They don’t know if that will be the case this season.

You accuse others of looking at this through one eye but you are doing exactly the same. You have decided that it is right to continue based on what people have told you and supposition. You might be right but the clubs that have pulled out might also be right. It’s 50/50 why can’t you and others on the other side of the argument sit back and wait and see what happens. Most will be hoping that for the sake of all clubs that are playing on this season that fans or funding does happen but you seem to be hoping it does so you can point and laugh at the clubs who opted out when they won’t care.

Why are you so upset with the clubs that have taken the option of a year out? The option was there to do it so why not protect themselves? f they are wrong they are only hurting themselves. Why are you not upset with the interim management committee who allowed that to be an option? Why can’t you accept that these clubs made a decision to protect themselves and it has no impact on you?

Or is it you always have to be right??
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1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

Sorry, if clubs rely far too heavily on gate money and match income to pay players wages, then it's a recipe for disaster.  It's not a sustainable model.

How did they survive the regular occurances of weeks/month of postponments in winter? or the Junior fixture favourite of a run of away games for weeks on end.

They've obviously budgeted over a season what their income will be and nothing you have said alters that overall income just temp. cash flow issues possibly if they don't have a buffer which I'm sure most of them have. If the leagues start and players are on full wages at all the clubs there will be casualties unfortunately before the season ends unless circumstances change dramatically from now, e.g. grants or vaccine or natural die out of virus.

 

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15 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 


Clubs survived because they could plan ahead. They knew that games would get played with fans coming in at some point. They don’t know if that will be the case this season.

You accuse others of looking at this through one eye but you are doing exactly the same. You have decided that it is right to continue based on what people have told you and supposition. You might be right but the clubs that have pulled out might also be right. It’s 50/50 why can’t you and others on the other side of the argument sit back and wait and see what happens. Most will be hoping that for the sake of all clubs that are playing on this season that fans or funding does happen but you seem to be hoping it does so you can point and laugh at the clubs who opted out when they won’t care.

Why are you so upset with the clubs that have taken the option of a year out? The option was there to do it so why not protect themselves? f they are wrong they are only hurting themselves. Why are you not upset with the interim management committee who allowed that to be an option? Why can’t you accept that these clubs made a decision to protect themselves and it has no impact on you?

Or is it you always have to be right??

You've turned it into a debate about forum users again for some bizarre reason, it reminds me of why I took a long break from here.

The whole of the Lowland League, East of Scotland League, South of Scotland League, and the bulk of the West of Scotland league seem to be comfortable with moving forward and starting the season.  I've detailed my opinion on why that is and how they can do it - at least short term -  and is an incovenient fact that a lot of clubs (some continuing to play, some not) rely far too heavily on matchday income.

Now, those who follow the clubs who have withdrawn have become defensive and choose to have a go at people who - rightly - question the decision which is unprecedented and does nothing but damage the reputation of this level of football, a level of football they haven't even kicked a ball in yet.

I'm not upset, my league has two rounds under it's belt.

 

Edited by Burnieman
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10 minutes ago, tell_me_more said:

They've obviously budgeted over a season what their income will be and nothing you have said alters that overall income just temp. cash flow issues possibly if they don't have a buffer which I'm sure most of them have. If the leagues start and players are on full wages at all the clubs there will be casualties unfortunately before the season ends unless circumstances change dramatically from now, e.g. grants or vaccine or natural die out of virus.

 

If they have a buffer, money in the bank, resource to fall back on, call it what you will to cover extended periods of inactivity due to weather relate postponements then why would that contingency not come into play to start the season and see what happens? 

Anyway, time to beat a retreat again.  I've said my piece.

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31 West sides voted against starting now - why 17 decided that was not enough to also pull out is up to them. And why of the 6 of the initial 14 changed their mind is also up to them. Let's see who stays in as the next few days / weeks unfold.

Edited by cmontheloknow
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You've turned it into a debate about forum users again for some bizarre reason, it reminds me of why I took a long break from here.
The whole of the Lowland League, East of Scotland League, South of Scotland League, and the bulk of the West of Scotland league seem to be comfortable with moving forward and starting the season.  I've detailed my opinion on why that is and how they can do it - at least short term -  and is an incovenient fact that a lot of clubs (some continuing to play, some not) rely far too heavily on matchday income.
Now, those who follow the clubs who have withdrawn have become defensive and choose to have a go at people - rightly - questioning the decision which is unprecedented and does nothing but damage the reputation of this level of football.
I'm not upset, my league has two rounds under it's belt.
 


You seem to want to continually make the point you have made from the beginning. You used terms like cabal insinuating that this was some sort of joint decision done for nefarious reasons. I doubt very much Talbot or Pollok care what Arthurlie do as it will have no impact on them.

I know how much it used to cost Arthurlie to get by each week and even if it is not exactly the same, it would still be at least 4 figures a month. Our lotto relies on the pubs being open. Most people that play aren’t regular fans of the club and will take a shot when they go to the pub. Online was tried before and didn’t work because the people had to be asked to take a shot. With pubs shut we have had to suspend the lotto. Even with our sponsors helping us out, we have many small businesses and pubs who sponsor us so who knows if they were actually able to this year, that money would be gone by Christmas.

Was the option on offer to the other leagues to take a season out with no penalties? I ask you again why are you so happy to take a shot at the clubs but not the management committee who made the offer of dropping out with no penalties?

Having read what Gaz put about the problems that Dunipace had, I hope no other club has to go through the same issues and maybe the EOS should be more accommodating rather than punishing clubs that might have to cancel games due to COVID.

The reason I am defensive is you want to make this something that’s bigger than it really is. These clubs made a decision that you and others don’t like and constantly insult these clubs (including my own) and are almost hoping that they long term go out of business with some of your comments.

You also made the point that I am trying to turn this into a debate about posters. How can I not? Your the one making the comments. I will always defend my club if I agree with them and on this I do.
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If they have a buffer, money in the bank, resource to fall back on, call it what you will to cover extended periods of inactivity due to weather relate postponements then why would that contingency not come into play to start the season and see what happens? 
Anyway, time to beat a retreat again.  I've said my piece.


You’ve said it a number of times

Why retreat now?
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6 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 


You seem to want to continually make the point you have made from the beginning. You used terms like cabal insinuating that this was some sort of joint decision done for nefarious reasons. I doubt very much Talbot or Pollok care what Arthurlie do as it will have no impact on them.

I know how much it used to cost Arthurlie to get by each week and even if it is not exactly the same, it would still be at least 4 figures a month. Our lotto relies on the pubs being open. Most people that play aren’t regular fans of the club and will take a shot when they go to the pub. Online was tried before and didn’t work because the people had to be asked to take a shot. With pubs shut we have had to suspend the lotto. Even with our sponsors helping us out, we have many small businesses and pubs who sponsor us so who knows if they were actually able to this year, that money would be gone by Christmas.

Was the option on offer to the other leagues to take a season out with no penalties? I ask you again why are you so happy to take a shot at the clubs but not the management committee who made the offer of dropping out with no penalties?

Having read what Gaz put about the problems that Dunipace had, I hope no other club has to go through the same issues and maybe the EOS should be more accommodating rather than punishing clubs that might have to cancel games due to COVID.

The reason I am defensive is you want to make this something that’s bigger than it really is. These clubs made a decision that you and others don’t like and constantly insult these clubs (including my own) and are almost hoping that they long term go out of business with some of your comments.

You also made the point that I am trying to turn this into a debate about posters. How can I not? Your the one making the comments. I will always defend my club if I agree with them and on this I do.

At no point have the EoS ever stated that clubs would be punished for being unable to field a team due to Covid issues.  That is false for a start.

You're defensiveness is absurd to the point of accusing me of this or that.  "clubs you don't like"? you think I have something against Arthurlie or Pollok or anyone for that matter? FFS.   "You're almost hoping....they go out of business"  what? you need to calm yourself down son.

Pie and Bovril eh........

 

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5 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

At no point have the EoS ever stated that clubs would be punished for being unable to field a team due to Covid issues.  That is false for a start.

You're defensiveness is absurd to the point of accusing me of this or that.  "clubs you don't like"? you think I have something against Arthurlie or Pollok or anyone for that matter? FFS.   "You're almost hoping....they go out of business"  what? you need to calm yourself down son.

Pie and Bovril eh........

 

dunipace.jpg

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2 hours ago, Burnieman said:

The word is that fans in limited numbers (perhaps 10% of capacity initially) at our level will return once the latest spike is brought under control.  The Govt are already aware that it is pretty low risk and it is merely about "timing"  ie probably political.  There is also outline agreement that the game will receive funding should that not happen.  Clubs are also making arrangements regarding changing facilities, and the requirements may be slightly relaxed to make it easier.  That's what I hear from various people, let's see what happens.

Starting the season is the right thing to do, yes there will be bumps in the road, yes there may well be stoppages or other disruptions but the season will - in my opinion - carry on to a conclusion or close to one. Clubs will adapt.

Those sitting out could learn to regret their decision.

You may be right you may be wrong , there are a few too many if's and but's for some. Only a few weeks until the onset of the dark winter months that might be even more challenging this time around. Have spoken to a few fans of clubs that have decided to play that are not happy , one who sells the lottery who is unsure if he will return. Fitba at this level is all about fans , all about being there. Clubs are used to sometimes long periods of no gate income due to weather postponements if you think it's all about cash then you are wrong. Hopefully fans will be allowed in soon in enough numbers so players can receive what they were entitled to re contracts and a wash , bite to eat and a wee refreshment for their efforts lol

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8 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

At no point have the EoS ever stated that clubs would be punished for being unable to field a team due to Covid issues.  That is false for a start.

You're defensiveness is absurd to the point of accusing me of this or that.  "clubs you don't like"? you think I have something against Arthurlie or Pollok or anyone for that matter? FFS.   "You're almost hoping....they go out of business"  what? you need to calm yourself down son.

Pie and Bovril eh........

 

Son :) :)

Dunipace said they had no option but to play...must be crossed wires somewhere.

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At no point have the EoS ever stated that clubs would be punished for being unable to field a team due to Covid issues.  That is false for a start. You're defensiveness is absurd to the point of accusing me of this or that.  "clubs you don't like"? you think I have something against Arthurlie or Pollok or anyone for that matter? FFS.   "You're almost hoping....they go out of business"  what? you need to calm yourself down son.

Pie and Bovril eh........

 

 

 

Firstly, don’t call me son its demeaning.

 

Secondly where did I say clubs you don’t like? I said a decision you don’t like. Please apologise for deliberately trying to take something out of context to put me down and further your own argument.

 

You have yet to answer the questions I put above.

 

Will try one last time. We’re any of the other clubs offered to opt out with no punishment by the LL/EOS/SS.

 

Why are you having a go at the clubs and not the management committee who offered the clubs the opt out?

 

Thanks to cmontheloknow for copying where I got the punishment from.

 

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