Restart

[tommytwotapes]

22 hours ago, The Ilford Drummer said:

The 3 options is incorrect.

It's a yes or no for 24th

with delay or postpone the next question

Thats not right either

Its Yes or no for 24th to start with the present restrictions in force        No Fans  No changing rooms Temp checks and a host of other items

[peasy23]

Thats not right either
Its Yes or no for 24th to start with the present restrictions in force        No Fans  No changing rooms Temp checks and a host of other items

Question 1, should the season start on 24th October with the current restrictions that are in place? Clubs to vote yes or no.

Question 2, IF the majority of clubs answer no to question 1, should the league be paused for the time being and start if/when restrictions are eased, or should the season be cancelled and restart for season 21/22?

[AlanCamelonfan]

34 minutes ago, peasy23 said:

Question 1, should the season start on 24th October with the current restrictions that are in place? Clubs to vote yes or no.

Question 2, IF the majority of clubs answer no to question 1, should the league be paused for the time being and start if/when restrictions are eased, or should the season be cancelled and restart for season 21/22?

The east are starting on the 10th and it appears lowland league is too. No reason fans cluldnt be let in at this level

[peasy23]

The east are starting on the 10th and it appears lowland league is too. No reason fans cluldnt be let in at this level

I wouldn't bet on it quite yet, fully expecting a "circuit break" to be announced tomorrow. How far that might go remains to be seen.

I do agree about the fans thing though.

[ralphpdk]

I watched the last 15mins of an amateur game yesterday from the car. Conditions were horrendous on a grass park that was very wet and the players were covered in muck. At the end one side had a team talk, and all reasonably distanced, which I thought was very brave in the rain. The other team’s players all got they’re bags from under a hap that they’d used to cover them then went straight to their cars. All we’re putting towels on the seats and some tough guys took shirts off and put tracksuit top on outside their car. I shouted across the car park to one of them did he enjoy that and he replied it’s great to be playing I said what about no showers or changing and he said ‘That’s what we need to do. I have do things every day at my work for Covid that I don’t like because I need to do them, I doing this at the football because I want to’ We shouldn’t be stopping guys playing football if they want to

[cmontheloknow]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54408588

Covid & Scottish football: Professor Jason Leitch answers key questions

The opening two months of the Scottish football season have been riven with confusion, dismay, and apparent inconsistencies as the game wrestles with life in the time of Covid-19.

In an attempt to bring some sort of clarity, BBC Scotland spoke to national clinical director Professor Jason Leitch to try and debunk some mistruths, clarify grey areas, and challenge some of those anomalies...

Are you content the football protocols are working?

Plans put in place to enable football to return in June have, for the most part, worked. Six of the 12 Scottish Premiership clubs have had players or staff self-isolate but widespread outbreaks had been avoided until six positive tests were returned by Kilmarnock last week.

"I think the sector has done a great job. There have been positive cases in elite football - as there have been in other sectors - because this is a cunning virus. It finds its way in.

"The single most important tool we have for now is human behaviour so keeping yourself apart from other households is the biggest thing you can do. That's whether you're Kilmarnock's goalkeeper, St Mirren's centre-half or a waitress in a pub.

"Sport in the main have done that really well. Everything I've seen is exemplary."

Why were Kilmarnock's squad told to self-isolate?

The entire Kilmarnock squad is self-isolating for 14 days after six positive tests in the past week and the club could face sanctions if they are found to have breached Covid protocols.

But Aberdeen and St Mirren did not have to do likewise despite returning more than one positive test. What is the difference?

"Kilmarnock is a workplace outbreak. The other high-profile ones in football were individuals - flew to Spain, went to hospitality and weren't distanced.

"If it was a call centre, test and protect go in and get them to talk us through their day, and that happens with every health board. At a football club we'd ask thing like where they sat in the dressing room, on the bus, where they ate.

"After that, the incident management team make a judgement based on the evidence about the risk to others and on this occasion they decided it was significant enough to ask them to self-isolate.

"Why are Kilmarnock self-isolating but St Mirren didn't have to? St Mirren could evidence that they'd contained it, but it is also a timing thing. With any positive test, people are asked to detail their movements in the 48 hours before they first started to notice symptoms.

"If they were not mixing with the squad in that time, the risk of transmission is less."

Does not having testing in lower leagues worry you?

SPFL sides in the Championship, League 1 and League 2 will begin their seasons this week in the League Cup group stages. As it stands, those teams need only test for Covid-19 in the days before playing Premiership opposition.

"There is risk and we hope clubs will take that very seriously. We've brought back contact sports outside for adults - five-a-side football, for example - and we've not seen big outbreaks there so I'm confident if we do it right, we can do it safely, but it won't be risk free."

If lower-league players don't have to test, why do Premiership ones?

Premiership teams have been testing either once or twice a week since returning to training in June. But if lower-league players do not have to take tests, do their top-flight equivalents need to continue doing so?

"There is a logical argument to say not to bother but we think testing adds another layer of protection and the Joint Response Group agree, although I understand there are economic considerations and we shouldn't forget those.

"But that extra layer at the elite end is the right thing to do, I think, as long as we can do it as it gives them more chance of completing their seasons because you can isolate people out as you need to. And it's better to know that than not, and the virus spread unnoticed."

Lower-league players have to arrive and leave in their kit. Why is that?

The current protocol state that players outside the top flight cannot shower after training or matches and - like the rest of the population - should not share cars. Some have noted that spending several hours in wet clothes while driving long-distances at night can also be perilous to a player's health...

"If everyone had their own individual shower and it was cleaned between each use, there's pretty much no risk. But the challenge is that when you go down the leagues, the facilities aren't quite as good sometimes. It's about trying to mitigate risk as always.

"We think it's probably about right that we ask kids to arrive in their gear and go home and shower and it's about right that Premiership players can shower given the set-ups at those clubs. But somewhere in the middle is a sweet spot.

"It goes to the question everybody asks... why can I do this, but not that? The fundamental answer is population health. The risk to you of doing something might be minimal to you, but the more people do it, you add risk on top of risk on top of risk.

"That's a real communication challenge for us around football stadiums v pubs or soft plays v cinemas."

Okay, so why are cinemas open when football stadiums are not?

Two successful test events in September, with 300 fans at Premiership matches in Aberdeen and Dingwall, have yet to be repeated, with a pause put on any further games by First Minister Nicola Sturgeon. Meanwhile, cinemas are open to a limited number of customers.

All of these decisions are based on four 'harms' - the harm caused by Covid directly; the harm caused to other parts of the health service as a result; the social harm on things such as people's mental health; and the economic harm. The chief advisors for each give that advice to the First Minister and the cabinet and they make the decisions.

"With all this stuff, there's not a straightforward answer. Cinemas are very small numbers, very distanced, there's not a public transport, or policing problem, there's not people going to pubs before and after. But it's not an exact science. You can't say cinemas are safer than football stadiums.

"As you open things, there will be anomalies. You can rationalise them but fundamentally it's about the fact you can't have everything.

"But at some level you have to make choices. If the bucket of risk if full, you can't put more in it. If the bucket of risk is half empty, you can think 'right, what is the next thing to do?'. Is it soft play for kids? Is it nightclubs for students? You can't put both in the bucket at the same time."

But why is football behind other things is getting into that bucket?

Speaking to BBC Scotland on Saturday, SPFL chief executive Neil Doncaster said that "it often feels football does not get a fair rub of the green" and pointed to indoor venues such as the Royal Albert Hall being allowed to admit 57% of capacity. He added: "Anybody who tells me that is not a political choice, I'm sorry I don't accept that."

"My argument would be that football got into the bucket pretty early on. What it didn't get was crowds.

"But let's be very clear, football got very special privileges to go back before hosts of other sectors. Most people are still working from home as default. Football is open, people are at work, so they got in the bucket but they didn't get everything they wanted and are pushing for now.

"I completely get the angst about crowds and people saying they've gone to Alloa every second week for their whole life and there's no risk because they'll walk there and socially distance. It really hurts me to not allow that but we have to minimise the risk."

Could we see fans back at smaller clubs first?

The test events were considered a success. People arrived, got to their seats, were distanced, left safely and were dispersed from the stadium. Professor Leitch says he looks forward to seeing further pilots, and hints that talks had taken place about having small numbers of crowds at lower-league games.

"I'm very mindful of the smaller clubs who could put together pretty strong mitigation to have small, distanced, local crowds and keep the vulnerable away. That will come back and I am an advocate for that but it's about timing.

"We haven't had that discussion fully yet with the SPFL and Scottish FA. Should they let Annan, for example, have crowds before Rangers and Celtic? There are arguments in both directions and at some point we'll trigger that but not yet, because we're still too worried about the virus."

How is the relationship between football and the authorities?

Doncaster and Scottish FA vice-president Mike Mulraney were vocal on Saturday in their belief that preventing fans returning is "political rather than clinical". So is there tension between them and the authorities? And do the latter feel like they are being strong-armed?

"The relationships are pretty good. We've got different jobs and come at it from a different angle. But so does the hospitality sector and the guy who runs Edinburgh Airport.

"It's never bad-tempered or unhappy; it's constructive. And fundamentally everybody wants the same thing. They want it slightly quicker than we think it's safe to do so but that's what I would do if I was in their seat.

"It's doesn't feel like a fight. It feels like they understand. The minister for sport and I are sports fans. Sometimes we come across as the bad guys because we are the ones slowing it down but we're doing our best to help them.

"Sports rhetoric is always turned up to 11 and, unlike other sectors, they've got wall-to-wall coverage. I'm okay with it as long as we occasionally get to give our version of the truth. People are big enough to make up their own minds about what we're saying and why we're saying it."

What news should we expect on Tuesday?

Doncaster is due to meet with sports minister Joe Fitzpatrick on Monday, and Tuesday marks the three-week review date for the pause on test events and fans returning. Will the First Minister relax the restrictions at all?

"A number of things have happened since then so I wouldn't expect any change for a few weeks. The most likely outcome will be "we'll look again in three weeks". But I'm the advisor, not the decision-maker."

Do you believe we will see stadiums at full capacity this season?

It is now over six months since a crowd bigger than 300 fans watched a football match in Scotland. Will that change in the next six months?

"I don't think we'll see full capacity stadiums this season. I think we'll see crowds before next summer but not full stadiums, I don't think."

[FairWeatherFan]

I've seen some clubs say they can fit x number of people socially distanced around the perimeter of the pitch. Which sounds good in theory, but since this is Scotland where the weather is crap. What happens when it starts raining and people start gravitating towards cover? If the ground is fortunate enough to have some of course.

[Hillonearth]

3 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I've seen some clubs say they can fit x number of people socially distanced around the perimeter of the pitch. Which sounds good in theory, but since this is Scotland where the weather is crap. What happens when it starts raining and people start gravitating towards cover? If the ground is fortunate enough to have some of course.

It's something that occurred to us on Saturday - it teemed down the whole day, and under normal circumstances the crowd would naturally gravitate to the covered terracing. Having the friendlies BCD is useful in as much as each one raises a few new questions which will need to be addressed when and if fans are back.

[lithgierose]

17 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I've seen some clubs say they can fit x number of people socially distanced around the perimeter of the pitch. Which sounds good in theory, but since this is Scotland where the weather is crap. What happens when it starts raining and people start gravitating towards cover? If the ground is fortunate enough to have some of course.

[cmontheloknow]

And an extended arm / brolly combo, waved menacingly, is a perfectly good means of demonstrating what 2m social distancing is, for those that don't quite get it.

[Arthurlie1981]

I've seen some clubs say they can fit x number of people socially distanced around the perimeter of the pitch. Which sounds good in theory, but since this is Scotland where the weather is crap. What happens when it starts raining and people start gravitating towards cover? If the ground is fortunate enough to have some of course.

I pointed this out a few weeks ago and there are a number of other questions that clubs will/should need to answer. This isn’t as simple as saying ‘well numbers attending are small enough so we should just let them in’ as some are suggesting.

If it can be done in a safe manor then great we should do it, but can it be? We have just seen the stop being put on fans in some parts the north of England and there must be a reason for that. SG will also look at the stock car event in Lochgelly and won’t want that sort of bad press.

The other question clubs have to ask themselves is it worth the risk. There is no guarantee that fans will attend in the numbers that clubs would require to cover their costs. A number of the supporters are older and may not want to take the risk of attending and catching something, also going to the games is a social thing for many people if they can’t stand with their mates then again they might not go.

Clubs need fans back and fans need games back. I’m sure we have all missed it!! But people need to be reassured that it will be done in the safest possible manor and that goes for both decision makers and fans.

[peasy23]

 

2 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

"We haven't had that discussion fully yet with the SPFL and Scottish FA. Should they let Annan, for example, have crowds before Rangers and Celtic? There are arguments in both directions and at some point we'll trigger that but not yet, because we're still too worried about the virus."

Quite alarming that this is the case tbh. Given that any change seems to take 3 or 4 weeks to implement it gives me no confidence at all that fans will be allowed in to games this side of New Year.

[LongTimeLurker]

He's basically saying they'll do it this season (things were gearing up for the SPFL's lower division October restart previously) but only when the optics of opening stuff up don't risk a backlash politically. January is a realistic timeline for the "second wave" having peaked and obviously subsided enough that the politicians will be ready to pull the trigger on more reopening.  Boris and Nicola will definitely want to be seen as the hero who saved Christmas rather than the dictator from on high who cancelled it.

Edited October 5, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[cmontheloknow]

bottom line would seem to be that in the order of priorities that the powers that be have, fans at lower league games is somewhere alongside seethrough PPE for strippers.

Edited October 5, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[LongTimeLurker]

15 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

bottom line would seem to be that in the order of priorities that the powers that be have, fans at lower league games is somewhere alongside seethrough PPE for strippers.

The Annan vs Old Firm comparison and the mention that crowds at lower levels will happen at some point before anything happens with Rangers and Celtic but right now they are worried about the virus (i.e. the optics of the "second wave") shows the issue is on their radar. He is saying in the interview that Ibrox and Parkhead are unlikely to fully re-open this season but that diddy teams are likely to get crowds back.

Edited October 5, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[cmontheloknow]

To be fair to Mulraney he did mention the EoS and WoS by name on Radio Scotland a week or so back. However if say 10 million is found down the back of Nicola's sofa next week, I would expect to see SPFL clubs get the lion's share. The scraps to be shared among 200 non leaguers. As a best case scenario.

[The Ilford Drummer]

Spoiler

 

2 hours ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

I pointed this out a few weeks ago and there are a number of other questions that clubs will/should need to answer. This isn’t as simple as saying ‘well numbers attending are small enough so we should just let them in’ as some are suggesting.

If it can be done in a safe manor then great we should do it, but can it be? We have just seen the stop being put on fans in some parts the north of England and there must be a reason for that. SG will also look at the stock car event in Lochgelly and won’t want that sort of bad press.

The other question clubs have to ask themselves is it worth the risk. There is no guarantee that fans will attend in the numbers that clubs would require to cover their costs. A number of the supporters are older and may not want to take the risk of attending and catching something, also going to the games is a social thing for many people if they can’t stand with their mates then again they might not go.

Clubs need fans back and fans need games back. I’m sure we have all missed it!! But people need to be reassured that it will be done in the safest possible manor and that goes for both decision makers and fans.

 

Nicola threatening increased restrictions,surely it's time to park up until the New Year.

[Stag Nation]

Here in England, the authorities have decided that "elite" clubs have to play behind closed doors, but "non-elite" clubs can let the fans in. This led to a bizarre situation locally at the weekend, where the non-elite Corinthian Casuals were at home to Dulwich Hamlet, who (bizarrely) are classed as elite.  600 crowd, but visiting supporters banned!

https://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2020/09/corinthian-casuals-make-statement-over-the-baffling-fa-ban-on-dulwich-hamlet-supporters/

[Tutankhamen]

1 hour ago, gogsy said:

Greater Glasgow and Clyde 242 cases, Lanarkshire 130. Clearly the weegies are ruining it for the rest of us. 

 

 

With some help from the Lothians barstewards

Can only go with the Kelty forum but it seems our gogsy is the local village idiot.

[cmontheloknow]

57 minutes ago, Stag Nation said:

Here in England, the authorities have decided that "elite" clubs have to play behind closed doors, but "non-elite" clubs can let the fans in. This led to a bizarre situation locally at the weekend, where the non-elite Corinthian Casuals were at home to Dulwich Hamlet, who (bizarrely) are classed as elite.  600 crowd, but visiting supporters banned!

https://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2020/09/corinthian-casuals-make-statement-over-the-baffling-fa-ban-on-dulwich-hamlet-supporters/

yet the traffic light system leaked today suggests a ban incoming on non professional sport.

Edited October 5, 2020 by cmontheloknow