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[iceicebaby]

The main issue will be players who are on pro contracts as if they are training and playing then legally they need to be paid at least the NLW/NMW for the hours they are "working". You cant just say to these boys aye we will give you £20 per week now without changing their contracts to amatuer status

Lets say clubs agree to pay players/ management team expences of £20 per week per head x 20 =£400
12  weeks from 10th Oct til end of the year= £4800+ cost of training with no gate money, how many clubs could stomach that?

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

8 hours ago, andy25 said:

Healthy people die every day. My dad was healthy dropped dead with a heart attack.
Life goes on.

‘Life goes on” - I pray god you’re not in charge of anything important 

[andy25]

Life does go on .Some of us want to lead a life with some semblance of normality and not be locked down for ever.

‘Life goes on” - I pray god you’re not in charge of anything important 

[Andy groundhopper]

Possible outlook : vaccine can't be 100% safe,has side effects, the job losses go through the roof, loss of  NI and tax payments. No prospect of mass  employment on the horizon, resulting in overwhelming benefits claims. With Christmas soon, plunging people into debts they can't/won't pay, looked after by a useless, slow, selfish government. Can understand why some people just say get on with some sort of life.

[LongTimeLurker]

There is little sign so far that this "second wave" is anything more than a lot more mild and asymptomatic cases being identified now than was the case back in April due to increased testing. If we look elsewhere Spain has had a significant uptick on deaths and ICU admissions under similar circumstances, but Italy hasn't. We are in wait and see mode right now on WoS starting up with fans because the politicians don't want to be blamed if we follow the Spanish rather than the Italian trajectory before we see another plateau and decline with the new cases numbers.

Anyone who expected complete elimination any time soon was delusional. The near complete inaction by UK authorities to stop the initial spread from Jan to Mar until the exponential curve on deaths was already rocketing up (a further10 days or so of exponentially increasing numbers of new infections were already locked in by that point before the lockdown could have any effect) gave COVID-19 the chance to spread widely throughout the country.  Once the genie is out of the bottle like that an elimination strategy would be very difficult and economically ruinous to achieve given how easily it spreads and how many mild and asymptomatic cases there are. Life can't grind to a halt completely and there were always plenty of people who had to be out and about performing essential services.

The rational course of action is to accept that although there is still some risk involved on moving towards normality, it is probably no more drastic than the other risks we face every day of our lives. A large portion of the population has already been exposed to COVID without even being aware of it, so it is most likely largely over by this point.

Edited September 19, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[The Ilford Drummer]

11 hours ago, iceicebaby said:

The main issue will be players who are on pro contracts as if they are training and playing then legally they need to be paid at least the NLW/NMW for the hours they are "working". You cant just say to these boys aye we will give you £20 per week now without changing their contracts to amatuer status

Couple of points.

Contracts dont kick in til real football starts, so anything agreed between club and players meantime is exactly that, an Agreement.

Never seen a contract yet that mentions hourly rate,not even sure if minimum wage applies either.

 Do some folk actually think clubs should start paying players straight away with no gate money, keep doing so for an indefinite period then just fold when nothing left.

[parsforlife]

18 hours ago, timeforchange said:

The clubs have had no financial support from the Sfa. The big clubs all got £50,000 to help we got SFA . Some big clubs gave their donation away to their charity foundations could they not have helped out the lower league clubs and gave a donation to the associations. 

 

1). The £50000 came from James Anderson, not the SFA.   There were also conditions on how it was used with basically 2 options, use it to help get the club ready to re-start(crucially nothing to be spent on wages) or give it to your foundation.   The clubs didn’t have the option of giving it to the non-league game,. And even if they did I’m not sure why they would,.  The spfl clubs are struggling with the same issues.

1 hour ago, The Ilford Drummer said:

Couple of points.

Contracts dont kick in til real football starts, so anything agreed between club and players meantime is exactly that, an Agreement.

Never seen a contract yet that mentions hourly rate,not even sure if minimum wage applies either.

 Do some folk actually think clubs should start paying players straight away with no gate money, keep doing so for an indefinite period then just fold when nothing left.

I’d have thought contracts kick in on a start date,  I can’t imagine many people signing a contract that only comes into effect at some mythical point in the future.    I’d certainly not think players would be training and playing friendlies without being under contract.  And if they aren’t under contract, then they can’t be registered,  so they’re free to go play for another club. There might be agreements,  but certainly nothing signed.

Contracts might not mention hours, but that means nothing in terms of NMW. If they are working for you then their wages need to meet the NMW x the number of hours they worked at minimum.  NMW has to apply,  unless your players are amateurs.

[The Ilford Drummer]

 have thought contracts kick in on a start date,  I can’t imagine many people signing a contract that only comes into effect at some mythical point in the future.

wrong.

[parsforlife]

So what’s the wording on the deals? Are players training and playing friendlies as amateurs?  Are they registered as such?

[Arthurlie1981]

So what’s the wording on the deals? Are players training and playing friendlies as amateurs?  Are they registered as such?

You used to be able to put a clause in the contract that allowed contracts to start but payments not made until competitive games were played. Don’t know if it is still done that way but many clubs used this.

[parsforlife]

8 minutes ago, Arthurlie1981 said:

 

You used to be able to put a clause in the contract that allowed contracts to start but payments not made until competitive games were played. Don’t know if it is still done that way but many clubs used this.

 

So a deferred payment for work done in pre-season?

[cmontheloknow]

Clubs pay a training wage over the summer once back that covers pre-season matches.

Edited September 19, 2020 by cmontheloknow

[Arthurlie1981]

Clubs pay a training wage over the summer once back that covers pre-season matches.

TBH even that was mainly done away with by lots of clubs over the last few years most clubs added the clause “first competitive game until final competitive game”.

As Pars asked above, yeah it was a bit like that where the wage had that built in. It mean that the clubs whose income won’t start until the league cup started and then when the games finished the wages did too. I know of clubs who didn’t have the clause whose played on an all weather pitch and had to continue paying wages until June without income.

[parsforlife]

Interesting.  The spfl now has rules in place that have the players better protected so contracts now run to end of June/start of July when before it wasn’t uncommon for clubs to chance it and have contracts end immediately after the final games.  I think the PFA must have put abit of pressure on them as there were quite annoyed that clubs were giving out ‘1 year’ deals but were actually only paying 10 months wages.  And then the players deal would run out and they couldn’t get another one until the next season.   Having contracts run out in between transfer windows you could argue is infringing a players ability to work as they can’t be registered to another club.   Less of an issue in the non-league game with no transfer windows but you do have the March 31st deadline to contend with.

As always contracts at this level are generally ok as agreements between club and player and as long as both parties are happy no issue,  however it’s just going to take 1 player to decide they are unhappy and test things legally,  particularly in regards to NWM and the shit will hit the fan  The back pay clubs would need to pay will be Huge.

[Lobby Dossar]

3 hours ago, parsforlife said:

So what’s the wording on the deals? Are players training and playing friendlies as amateurs?  Are they registered as such?

So when do clubs have to insure players agains injuries???? 

[Arthurlie1981]

Interesting.  The spfl now has rules in place that have the players better protected so contracts now run to end of June/start of July when before it wasn’t uncommon for clubs to chance it and have contracts end immediately after the final games.  I think the PFA must have put abit of pressure on them as there were quite annoyed that clubs were giving out ‘1 year’ deals but were actually only paying 10 months wages.  And then the players deal would run out and they couldn’t get another one until the next season.   Having contracts run out in between transfer windows you could argue is infringing a players ability to work as they can’t be registered to another club.   Less of an issue in the non-league game with no transfer windows but you do have the March 31st deadline to contend with.
As always contracts at this level are generally ok as agreements between club and player and as long as both parties are happy no issue,  however it’s just going to take 1 player to decide they are unhappy and test things legally,  particularly in regards to NWM and the shit will hit the fan  The back pay clubs would need to pay will be Huge.

For many clubs it won’t matter as players will be signed on amateur contracts so NMW won’t matter.

I think you have me wrong, the contracts didn’t end until the end of the season it was just they weren’t entitled to pay. There is nothing illegal with it.

[Thereisalight..]

On 18/09/2020 at 16:05, timeforchange said:

Ok guys as survey time comes closer let’s have a wee look at the questions 

 

will fans be allowed in ? Don’t know 

will club survive without gate money ?no

Are you allowed to use the showers  ? Don’t know 

is that a health risk in the winter months  ? Possibly yes 

can the full league season be completed ? Don’t know 

how ca  you vote yes on the unknown. Yes we all want to play and watch football . It’s our life and blood but there becomes a point that you have to close the drain. You can’t keep emptying the well . The clubs have had no financial support from the Sfa. The big clubs all got £50,000 to help we got SFA . Some big clubs gave their donation away to their charity foundations could they not have helped out the lower league clubs and gave a donation to the associations. Let’s look very closely at the situation lots of Managers and players  would like season to start they are hoping to get paid but club officials and volunteers are working their baws aff to make sure their clubs survive selling raffles getting sponsorship etc when nobody knows what’s happening unfortunately I think it’s a defo no go this season and hope everybody does the most sensible thing when the survey comes out . Don’t vote on the unknown vote on what info is available . A referee when inspecting the pitch on a wi gers morning can’t say pitch will be thawed out by 2 pm . More clubs will survive and come back a lot stronger if we wait and start next season. 

 

It’s alright saying wait until next season, but who’s to say things are going to be different by then? There may not be a vaccine until 2022/3, do we just can football and “living” until then? 

[Andy groundhopper]

9 hours ago, Thereisalight.. said:

It’s alright saying wait until next season, but who’s to say things are going to be different by then? There may not be a vaccine until 2022/3, do we just can football and “living” until then? 

Unless the virus miraculously disappears as quick as it arrived, there may always be cases, hopefully not in large numbers. Seeing as people don't know they've had/got the virus, you can't wrap things in cotton wool forever. Football at non league level with fans should start in October - the professional game is different,30,000 outside a ground is risky. Wear a mask, socially distance, gives the game a chance.

[LongTimeLurker]

38 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Unless the virus miraculously disappears as quick as it arrived, there may always be cases, ...

Once herd immunity is achieved it should slowly fade as long as it doesn't mutate into a form that people who had it previously have not built up an immune response for. So far the mutation rate has been low fortunately., so that's unlikely.

Herd immunity means there are not enough people available to be infected for R0 to be above one and for the virus to be able to keep spreading to more people. With a highly contagious virus pandemic herd immunity usually happens naturally in any population after two to three months of exponential growth rather than through lockdown and vaccination.

Optimists think we are close to herd immunity already with COVID-19 because it ultimately turned out that a large portion of the population had pre-existing cross-immunity from being exposed to other coronaviruses, so the exponential growth in cases in most western countries at the start of the year was enough to start drastically lowering the R0 making the lockdowns a bit of a waste of time.

 Pessimists ignore the evidence that has been accumulating on cross-immunity and think we are on the brink of a huge second wave of deaths and ICU admissions if restrictions are not reimposed because lockdowns were effective and we are still far away from herd immunity with no vaccine imminent.

It won't be long until there is a very clear picture on which camp is correct, because we have some countries available like Sweden, Belarus and most recently South Africa to compare what happens with fewer restrictions in place.

Governments in the UK are being very cautious right now because they want to be 100% sure the optimistic outlook is correct having already received what appears to have been misleading advice about probable peak severity from experts at the start of the year that led to the huge flap over Dyson ventilators etc.

Edited September 20, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[rncaa]

Have to laugh at this let fans in campaign. 

Good intentions but totally pointless and will go nowhere. 

Do people not realise agree with it or not we are heading only one way more and more local lockdowns, and restrictions on everyday life with strong possibility of another lockdown nationwide for at least a couple of weeks.  This will play out till least the new year making any credible season impossible. 

Football is irrelevant to the decision makers and in the grand scheme of things as much as i love football it really is lowest priority in a health pandemic sooner people realise that the better. 

Edited September 20, 2020 by rncaa