How good are/were Scotland?

[ewan14]

On 19/07/2020 at 13:52, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Just saw that game a few weeks ago, and I have to agree. We were full of fire and invention in the first half, and what really did for us was that we didn't add enough to the scoreline when we had the upper hand. We tired in the last half-hour and never looked like scoring again until the Soviets took the lead, who hadn't created much other than the two goals.

The most depressing part was that, with the game at 1-1 and needing victory to progress, we weren't creating anything either. We looked punched out until going behind belatedly woke us up. I can't help but feel I saw that before, back when we were half-decent; the inability to finish opponents off.

Edit: forgot to mention that WGS was on fire in that game. Just think what he could've accomplished in the game if he'd been born of stronger generic stock.

IMHO the most depressing parts were   Miller and the other one colliding for the second goal , letting the Soviets walk through us for their first ( Souness ) and the Soviet keeper making a great save when it was 2 - 2

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by ewan14

[GordonD]

49 minutes ago, ewan14 said:

IMHO the most depressing parts were   Miller and the other one colliding for the second goal , letting the Soviets walk through us for the first( Souness ) and the Soviet keeper making a great save when it was 2 - 2

 

Are you refusing to refer to him by name? Not saying that's a bad thing; even without taking out Miller he sold his soul to the devil when he became a punter talking about England games.

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, GordonD said:

Are you refusing to refer to him by name? Not saying that's a bad thing; even without taking out Miller he sold his soul to the devil when he became a punter talking about England games.

I can live with that. It was when he started referring to England as 'we' that he slipped into the 'w**k' column.

[ewan14]

On 19/07/2020 at 17:24, GordonD said:

Are you refusing to refer to him by name? Not saying that's a bad thing; even without taking out Miller he sold his soul to the devil when he became a punter talking about England games.

Yes

and referring to england as " we '' , as above 

Horrible ######

AND refusing to play right back v. Brazil although that did not work out too bad

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by ewan14

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

On 19/07/2020 at 16:34, ewan14 said:

IMHO the most depressing parts were   Miller and the other one colliding for the second goal , letting the Soviets walk through us for the first( Souness ) and the Soviet keeper making a great save when it was 2 - 2

 

My dad played football to a pretty good level and he's generally bang on when he talks football.  One thing always surprised me he doesn't rate Souness at all, always says he was a great player if you were 3-0 up but not so good if you were 0-0 or 1-0 down. 

I watched that and he completely sold the jerseys, the sort of thing a modern midfield would get shot for.  I've never heard anyone else say that about Souness but it seems there might be something in it.

[ewan14]

On 13/08/2020 at 14:43, Carnoustie Young Guvnor said:

My dad played football to a pretty good level and he's generally bang on when he talks football.  One thing always surprised me he doesn't rate Souness at all, always says he was a great player if you were 3-0 up but not so good if you were 0-0 or 1-0 down. 

I watched that and he completely sold the jerseys, the sort of thing a modern midfield would get shot for.  I've never heard anyone else say that about Souness but it seems there might be something in it.

Much as I hate to say it the dirty one scored our equaliser against the Soviet Union

( On the other hand he only scored three times for us ; a penalty against the Dutch and another in a " friendly " )

It was Willie Miller who said  " the dirty one " refused to track back the opposition's runners

and the Soviets walked through us for their first

In addition a couple of years later Roy Aitken was alongside him in central midfield to do the defensive duties !!

Someone rightfully said he did not go in for 50 - 50 challenges , he just went in when he could go over the top as can be seen on YT clips ( and he liked elbowing Ray Wilkins all over )

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by ewan14

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

16 hours ago, ewan14 said:

Much as I hate to say it the dirty one scored our equaliser against the Soviet Union

( On the other hand he only scored three times for us ; a penalty against the Dutch and another in a " friendly " )

It was Willie Miller who said  " the dirty one " refused to track back the opposition's runners

and the Soviets walked through us for their first

In addition a couple of years later Roy Aitken was alongside him in central midfield to do the defensive duties !!

Someone rightfully said he did not go in for 50 - 50 challenges , he just went in when he could go over the top as can be seen on YT clips ( and he liked elbowing Ray Wilkins all over )

 

Aye and see this hardman pish, see when he goes over the top of the ball to hurt people, that's how a coward challenges. That's how you can act the bully whilst making sure you don't get hurt, a real hardman will fly into a tackle opening himself up to potentially getting hurt but he's hard and brave so he'll do it, cowards tackle like Souness did.

I like listening to him, and funnily as a pundit he is my dad's favourite, but I think there's something in his criticisms of him as a player.

[KingRocketman II]

On 12/08/2020 at 18:01, ewan14 said:

Yes

and referring to england as " we '' , as above 

Horrible ######

AND refusing to play right back v. Brazil although that did not work out too bad

 

 

I think that is a myth that is routinely peddled. yes he did seem to be a go-to pundit for England games by BBC for quite some time but he was their top pundit. I don't recall him every referring to England as "we" but do recall a couple of times seeing behind the scenes footage of the studio's reaction to England's gaols. This would see Lyman and Hill and Wright and whoever jumping about like bell-ends after England fluked a goal against say Ecuador but Hansen would sit there impassively. Hardly the actions of someone who considered England to be his team. 

[KingRocketman II]

1 hour ago, Carnoustie Young Guvnor said:

Aye and see this hardman pish, see when he goes over the top of the ball to hurt people, that's how a coward challenges. That's how you can act the bully whilst making sure you don't get hurt, a real hardman will fly into a tackle opening himself up to potentially getting hurt but he's hard and brave so he'll do it, cowards tackle like Souness did.

I like listening to him, and funnily as a pundit he is my dad's favourite, but I think there's something in his criticisms of him as a player.

Souness at Liverpool did have a good with ethic I believe. At Sampdoria when he was what, 31/32, I think his legs started to go and he played a much more restrictive role for club and Scotland. He was arrogant and not everyone's favourite in the squad but he always tuned up and had a good relationship and respect for Stein. I look more fondly on his latter Scotland career for those reasons despite the fact that by mid-80s he wasn't the player he was in his pomp. 

I wonder though whether he would have made any difference against the rather physical Uruguay side in 86. Ferguson considered that his legs had indeed gone and wonder if the game would have drifted him past in that heat. he probably would have been sent off. 

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

26 minutes ago, KingRocketman II said:

Souness at Liverpool did have a good with ethic I believe. At Sampdoria when he was what, 31/32, I think his legs started to go and he played a much more restrictive role for club and Scotland. He was arrogant and not everyone's favourite in the squad but he always tuned up and had a good relationship and respect for Stein. I look more fondly on his latter Scotland career for those reasons despite the fact that by mid-80s he wasn't the player he was in his pomp. 

I wonder though whether he would have made any difference against the rather physical Uruguay side in 86. Ferguson considered that his legs had indeed gone and wonder if the game would have drifted him past in that heat. he probably would have been sent off. 

Aye I mean I never really saw him so can't comment on him too much.  He looked after himself physically more than most players in those days.  Amazing that we could leave players like that out in 86 and were managed by people like Stein and Ferguson.  Wee bit different to nowadays.

[Bing.McCrosby]

On 13/08/2020 at 14:43, Carnoustie Young Guvnor said:

My dad played football to a pretty good level and he's generally bang on when he talks football.  One thing always surprised me he doesn't rate Souness at all, always says he was a great player if you were 3-0 up but not so good if you were 0-0 or 1-0 down. 

I watched that and he completely sold the jerseys, the sort of thing a modern midfield would get shot for.  I've never heard anyone else say that about Souness but it seems there might be something in it.

You should give him your login details.

[ewan14]

7 hours ago, KingRocketman II said:

I think that is a myth that is routinely peddled. yes he did seem to be a go-to pundit for England games by BBC for quite some time but he was their top pundit. I don't recall him every referring to England as "we" but do recall a couple of times seeing behind the scenes footage of the studio's reaction to England's gaols. This would see Lyman and Hill and Wright and whoever jumping about like bell-ends after England fluked a goal against say Ecuador but Hansen would sit there impassively. Hardly the actions of someone who considered England to be his team. 

He did , fact !

anglo ####

[ewan14]

7 hours ago, KingRocketman II said:

Souness at Liverpool did have a good with ethic I believe. At Sampdoria when he was what, 31/32, I think his legs started to go and he played a much more restrictive role for club and Scotland. He was arrogant and not everyone's favourite in the squad but he always tuned up and had a good relationship and respect for Stein. I look more fondly on his latter Scotland career for those reasons despite the fact that by mid-80s he wasn't the player he was in his pomp. 

I wonder though whether he would have made any difference against the rather physical Uruguay side in 86. Ferguson considered that his legs had indeed gone and wonder if the game would have drifted him past in that heat. he probably would have been sent off. 

He did not always turn up for friendlies , just saying

[ewan14]

7 hours ago, KingRocketman II said:

 

I wonder though whether he would have made any difference against the rather physical Uruguay side in 86. Ferguson considered that his legs had indeed gone and wonder if the game would have drifted him past in that heat. he probably would have been sent off. 

If he had played against Uruguay it would have been a win - win situation

[ewan14]

7 hours ago, KingRocketman II said:

Souness at Liverpool did have a good with ethic I believe. At Sampdoria when he was what, 31/32, I think his legs started to go and he played a much more restrictive role for club and Scotland. He was arrogant and not everyone's favourite in the squad but he always tuned up and had a good relationship and respect for Stein. I look more fondly on his latter Scotland career for those reasons despite the fact that by mid-80s he wasn't the player he was in his pomp. 

 

Give him his due he did seem to have a good work ethic , and IIRC Sampdoria won the cup while he was there , but he was still committing shocking fouls

Jock Stein was a fan of his  In his old newspaper  column Davie Provan said that during training if the majority of players did someting wrong they got a bollocking , certain players were exempt

 

[KingRocketman II]

9 hours ago, ewan14 said:

He did , fact !

anglo ####

if it' a fact then it should be quite easy for you to prove....

[GordonD]

Hansen was accused of saying "we were..." when talking about the English team but when the tape was checked he apparently said "ye were..."

[ewan14]

On 17/08/2020 at 14:37, Carnoustie Young Guvnor said:

Aye I mean I never really saw him so can't comment on him too much.  He looked after himself physically more than most players in those days.  Amazing that we could leave players like that out in 86 and were managed by people like Stein and Ferguson.  Wee bit different to nowadays.

As has been said John McGovern could not get a cap !

[ewan14]

12 hours ago, KingRocketman II said:

if it' a fact then it should be quite easy for you to prove....

Sorry I did not record it

BigFatTabbyDave seems to have seen it as well

[BFTD]

1 hour ago, ewan14 said:

Sorry I did not record it

BigFatTabbyDave seems to have seen it as well

Aye, Euro 96. Not sure about elsewhere, and it wasn't a one-off either.

No idea if he was just ingratiating himself with a panel of other people supporting England, or if he's a big Unionist who genuinely thinks of all the home nations as 'us', but I found it a bit surprising, to say the least.