How good are/were Scotland?

[DA Baracus]

5 hours ago, DAFC. said:

We seem to have terrible luck since the break of the millennium

We absolutely haven't.

That's a shite get out and lets shitebags off with shitebag performances.

If there is such a thing as 'glorious failure'* then Scotland certainly haven't had that. We've just had failure.

 

 

 

*There isn't.

[BFTD]

5 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

We absolutely haven't.

That's a shite get out and lets shitebags off with shitebag performances.

If there is such a thing as 'glorious failure'* then Scotland certainly haven't had that. We've just had failure.

*There isn't.

Yeah, I agree with that. The closest I can think we've come to being unlucky was the Euro 2008 qualifiers, but then you remember that we were the only team (other than the Faeroes) to lose to Georgia, and we lost a third of our games overall. I can't think of a qualifying group where we've finished below a side who looked noticeably poorer than us. I can think of a few times we've finished above teams who made us look poor, however (Kazakhstan probably being the last one). We get what we deserve.

[Arch Stanton]

On 21/06/2020 at 01:41, John Lambies Doos said:

Really is astonishing what we had at our disposal for world cup 82. Leaders everywhere.... But alas we shot ourselves in the foot again......

 

The Scotland squad for the 1982 World Cup was the most internationally adept the nation had ever assembled.

 

Ten European Cup winners' medals between them from the previous five years, three Uefa Cup winners and four European Super Cups. Within another two seasons, they'd have amassed another two European Cups, two more Uefa Cups, four Cup Winners' Cup winners and five more Super Cups.

 

Throw in a collective 63 domestic honours and 503 caps and a legendary European Cup-winning manager in Jock Stein.

 

 

 

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52969661

 

 

Yeah but we conceded 2  v New Zealand which ultimately lead to us being papped out on GD.

[Eednud]

Yeah but we conceded 2  v New Zealand which ultimately lead to us being papped out on GD.

Same in ‘74 out on GD. Even though we didn’t lose a game we only put 2 past Zaire but Yugoslavia scored 9 and Brazil 3.

[Jacksgranda]

On 23/06/2020 at 14:29, Uncle Scan said:

1974 Unlucky

1978 Should have done better. Bad planning,loyal to  players out of form. Played our strongest team too late

1982 Again should have done better but too negative and gave teams too much respect

1986 Fecked up before we got there over Hansen. Dalglish spat the dummy and never went because of it. Weren't unlucky as we had a chance playing against 10 men for a full match and never looked like scoring

1990 No complaints just weren't good enough

1998 Same as above

I thought we suffered a real hangover from 78 and affected the 82 team where we had a really good squad just Rough not the required standard

I've always felt that. Maybe even longer than to 1982.

[Boo Khaki]

On 23/06/2020 at 13:58, DA Baracus said:

And when we did get such great results we either later negated them by shitting it and having a horror result or had already done the negating/shitting and were under no pressure.

This.

Beating France and Croatia are great results in their own right, but it always bemuses me why people bring these up as evidence that we undersell ourselves, Scottish footballers aren't as bad as we make out, and that we should be qualifying for finals, while at the same time they are happy to ignore us shitting the bed repeatedly against Georgia, being unable to beat Lithuania, and looking vastly technically inferior to the likes of Kazakhstan and Macedonia.

If we're ever going to make it to a finals, we don't necessarily have to go beating #1 seeded teams. We just need to stop blowing it against teams from countries that our media couldn't point to on a globe. 

Scotland suffers from the same problem as England does in a certain respect. English media thinks they should be winning tournaments because of the success of the EPL teams, ignoring the fact that the bulk of English players are either squad filler or bit-part guys being carried by foreigners in those sides. We think we should be beating Macedonia etc because Celtic can hump Macedonian level sides in Europe, but completely ignore the fact that Macedonia can field a player like Goran Pandev, who has more talent in his pinky than anyone in our side has in their entire body.

[Gordopolis]

The closest I can think we've come to being unlucky was the Euro 2008 qualifiers, but then you remember that we were the only team (other than the Faeroes) to lose to Georgia, and we lost a third of our games overall

We also won the other 2/3rds which makes that campaign feel like such a missed opportunity. Still sickens me to this day.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

3 hours ago, Boo Khaki said:

 We think we should be beating Macedonia etc because Celtic can hump Macedonian level sides in Europe,

Can they!?

[Boo Khaki]

Ok, perhaps not routinely or regularly. 

I think it's odd though when folk make that sort of statement, as if Celtic are representative of the state of Scottish football, but don't make the same assessment about Motherwell, Aberdeen, etc being pumped out routinely in qualifying rounds.

[forameus]

16 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Yeah, I agree with that. The closest I can think we've come to being unlucky was the Euro 2008 qualifiers, but then you remember that we were the only team (other than the Faeroes) to lose to Georgia, and we lost a third of our games overall. I can't think of a qualifying group where we've finished below a side who looked noticeably poorer than us. I can think of a few times we've finished above teams who made us look poor, however (Kazakhstan probably being the last one). We get what we deserve.

I'd also agree.  I'd wager we've finished just about where we should have for every single campaign with a bit of variance.  We're always going to be right around the last qualifying (or playoff spot) and we regularly come down to a few points from it.  I don't think there's any particular bad luck in that.  All our bad or disappointing results you can usually point to something we've done to cause them.  We shat it against Georgia in two separate campaigns.  We let England get a point.  We decided that a point in Dublin was enough when that team was always more capable of mugging off Germany than we were.  

21 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

We absolutely haven't.

That's a shite get out and lets shitebags off with shitebag performances.

If there is such a thing as 'glorious failure'* then Scotland certainly haven't had that. We've just had failure.

*There isn't.

Have to agree.  I'd also add that we've got this odd superiority complex that we absolutely don't deserve that has seen us stand still, thinking everyone else is a diddy, while we ourselves become the diddy.  Games against the likes of Lithuania, Georgia etc used to be an expected 3 points, great, but not anymore.  I remember listening to the Israel game where they absolutely pummeled us, and the guy commentating couldn't fucking wait to trot out the rankings.  Probably spent the days previous talking about how shite they were, and how we were favourites, when it absolutely isnt' the case anymore.  Sooner we realise that we're now no better than a lot of nations we used to beat, and accept that we've been standing still while they've jumped forward, and, like you say, stop going down the "wha's like us?"/"glorious failure" route, the better.

[Highlandmagyar 2nd Tier]

Had decents squad previously, but we are utter pants now.

[John Lambies Doos]

Have to agree.  I'd also add that we've got this odd superiority complex that we absolutely don't deserve that has seen us stand still, thinking everyone else is a diddy, while we ourselves become the diddy.  Games against the likes of Lithuania, Georgia etc used to be an expected 3 points, great, but not anymore.  I remember listening to the Israel game where they absolutely pummeled us, and the guy commentating couldn't fucking wait to trot out the rankings.  Probably spent the days previous talking about how shite they were, and how we were favourites, when it absolutely isnt' the case anymore.  Sooner we realise that we're now no better than a lot of nations we used to beat, and accept that we've been standing still while they've jumped forward, and, like you say, stop going down the "wha's like us?"/"glorious failure" route, the better.

This. Teams that are perceived as minnows by our media are rubbing their hands when they draw us.

[Academically Deficient]

Watching Scotland v Brazil 1974 again recently on lockdown council telly, I was struck as much by our attitude as the individual talent. Basically "we dont care if you're World Champions, we're Scotland and you are in for a right feckin time of it". No respect for reputations. Bremner halfing the great Revilino on the halftime whistle. We lost that after 78. Now our players look star struck and looking forward to swapping shirts with the big names. Maybe I'm being unfair, it just made me proud to have lived to see Scotland play that way. Sorry, something in my eye...its an age thing alright! 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Academically Deficient
Missed out it was the 74 WC.

[Boo Khaki]

Watching those games it's immediately apparent how much more comfortable on the ball our 70's and 80's players were compared to their current peers. Ok, 100 degree heat tends to have everybody on the pitch a bit more lethargic and grant you a wee bit more time on the ball, but there are none of the knee-height five-yard passes, players attempting to control a pass and it ending up at chest height after their first touch, losing the ball straight from throw-ins because the receiving player is uncomfortable taking it with an opponent on him etc etc

Even Davey Narey and Willie Miller are comfortable haring forward, looking for the ball, and going on mazey runs, all while playing Centre-Half. It's night and day. The players of the past 20 years look like they're wearing hockey kickers by comparison.

Graeme Souness going clean through Lothar Matthaeus, leaving him a writhing mess on the deck, and the ref no even giving it a second glance 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Boo Khaki

[Academically Deficient]

24 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

 

Graeme Souness going clean through Lothar Matthaeus, leaving him a writhing mess on the deck, and the ref no even giving it a second glance 

Souness was perceived as being arrogant, as well as aggressive. I'd love to see our players show a bit of that nowadays. Granted, the match officials may nowadays take a dim view of you aiming your studs at an opponent's throat, knee or vital organs as he did - and rightly so. But I've been to too many internationals in the past 20 years where our player's attitude against "big teams" is 'please dont hump us mister'.

[DA Baracus]

I'd argue that, for the most part and until very recently, we've actually done quite well against the better/pot 1 teams. We've had a few shockers but overall we've usually given them a game and had some decent results.

Sadly that's almost exclusively applicable to home games though. Most of the away ones against those teams we set out to not lose.

 

As always the downfall is shite away results against teams we beat comfortably at home. Kazakhstan is the most recent example. A garbage team who annihilated a cowardly disgrace of a Scotland team at home but who were shown up to be simpering pish at Hampden who Scotland easily brushed aside.

[Academically Deficient]

You're right in that some of the best performances I've seen have been against Italy, England, Spain etc. I'm probably being unfair. Dont want to sound like old guys used to be when I was wee, going on about the Wembley Wizards and moaning g about long-haired nancy boys like Souness and Jordan

[Marshmallo]

We could near enough pick an entire team from starters in the EPL who are important players at their clubs, and players who are in European competition after Christmas. The team just now should be good enough to qualify for a 24 team Euros at a minimum.

[Davie fae Duke Street]

It seems that Scotland always manages to be lesser than the sum of it's parts. Through the 60's 70's and 80's: there were plenty of high quality, high achieving players for the team and they really should have been making more respectable progress in tournaments.

I'd say that even since the 90's through to today, that most of the teams have under performed in regards to the quality of players available. At enough to get the odd qualification and one run beyond the group stage.

[Boo Khaki]

I suppose if you're being pragmatic, you could argue that the 1992 European Championship side, despite not making it out of the group, essentially placed 5th overall in Europe. I don't think that can rightfully be described as a failure, quite the opposite in fact considering UEFA governs Italy, Spain, England, Germany, Netherlands, France and so on. I certainly felt a lot more upbeat after that CIS match than I did after any of our World Cup efforts.

It's no different to narrowly missing out on a semi-final place at Euro 2021 really, and I'm sure that would probably be lauded as our greatest achievement ever should that happen. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Boo Khaki