How good are/were Scotland?

[BFTD]

4 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Of the better national teams formed after dissolution, we've only played them a few times. An average Czech Republic team that we played 4-6-0 against and drew 2-2 with at Hampden is a prime example of us once again shitting it and playing inept, insipid garbage.

Was that not the 1-0 defeat where they had about one shot on goal and looked like garbage, while we parked the bus and hoped to squeak a point like we were playing Pele's Brazil?

Properly depressing post, BTW. I still get flashbacks to that Lithuania game. Easily outplayed by an extremely mediocre-looking side in our own backyard. Oh shit, Kazakhstan! I need to lie down.

[DA Baracus]

2 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Was that not the 1-0 defeat where they had about one shot on goal and looked like garbage, while we parked the bus and hoped to squeak a point like we were playing Pele's Brazil?

Properly depressing post, BTW. I still get flashbacks to that Lithuania game. Easily outplayed by an extremely mediocre-looking side in our own backyard. Oh shit, Kazakhstan! I need to lie down.

Yes. Levein saw Rubin Kazan use it against Barcelona and thought it was worth a try.

He used players out of position and they'd clearly never trained much on it. A qualifier wasn't the place for such an experiment. When we were attacking it was (rare) farcical. Players had no idea what they were doing. The worst, like you note, is that we were against a painfully average Czech team.

[BFTD]

3 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Yes. Levein saw Rubin Kazan use it against Barcelona and thought it was worth a try.

He used players out of position and they'd clearly never trained much on it. A qualifier wasn't the place for such an experiment. When we were attacking it was (rare) farcical. Players had no idea what they were doing. The worst, like you note, is that we were against a painfully average Czech team.

I bet he still thinks he did the right thing there. We only lost 1-0, after all.

[DA Baracus]

12 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

I bet he still thinks he did the right thing there. We only lost 1-0, after all.

I think he does. 

[GordonS]

When you look at the numbers playing the game or watching the game, the success of their clubs in European competitions and their players at every level and the resources available to clubs and the national associations, we should have a record at least comparable to these: 

Denmark - 1 W, 2 SF, 2 QF, 3 R16 (and football was amateur in Denmark until 1978)

Norway - 2 R16

Sweden - 1 RU, 4 SF, 3 QF, 1 R8, 2 R16 

Ireland - 1 QF, 3 R16

Northern Ireland - 1 QF, 2 R16

Wales - 1 SF, 1 QF

Belgium - 1 RU, 3 SF, 2 QF, 1 R12, 3 R16

Switzerland - 3 QF, 5 R16

Austria - 2 SF, 2 R12

Hungary - 2 RU, 2 SF, 3 QF, 1 R16

Czechoslovakia/ Czechia - 1 W, 3 RU, 3 SF, 3 QF

Scotland - 0

 

In my opinion we are by far the biggest underachievers among the middle rank of European countries. We can make all the excuses we like about bad luck and tough draws, but over the course of 36 tournaments we have achieved precisely fk all. Over that time there's no way we've had that much worse luck than similar countries. We had teams rammed with guys who'd won the European Cup and English league that couldn't even qualify. In the early 80s Dundee Utd and Aberdeen were among the best sides in Europe - they could beat Barcelona and Real Madrid, but Scotland couldn't beat the USSR, Denmark or Uruguay. We finished behind Belgium, Austria and Portugal in Euro 80 qualifying and behind Belgium, Switzerland and East Germany for Euro 84 - bottom of the group.

That's the past of course - the present is so much worse.

Edited June 19, 2020 by GordonS

[BFTD]

It did occur to me a while back that we have the worst tournament record of all the UK nations. Sure, we've qualified a few times more than Wales and the Norn, but they've done better with the chances they've had when they get there. Pretending otherwise just seems like pedantry.

*sigh*

[GordonS]

Every generation of players since the 1980s has been a step down on what went before. Take the defence as an example: we replaced Miller, McLeish, Narey, Hegarty and Hansen with Gough, then Hendry and Calderwood, then Christian Dailly and David Weir, then McManus and Caldwell, and now I can barely bring myself to watch Hanley and McKenna. It's like that throughout the team in general, especially up front, though in fairness we have a reasonable number of competent midfielders now.

I remember when Andy Roxburgh was manager all the talk was about the need to import the entire youth systems of the Netherlands; now we're looking on jealously at Iceland, a country with the population of Aberdeen, no grass and 6 months of winter. Our youth football is a joke, it's been a joke for decades and while everyone else has pushed past us, we've stood still. We paper over the cracks because our young guys are thoroughly drilled from the age of 10 in playing their position in an 11-a-side team and not making mistakes, so we can overcome technically superior opponents through better game management. But it's a damn sight easier to learn game management in your early 20s than to learn technique.

I've watched a lot of club and international youth football. I knew when I watched our U21s beat Azerbaijan at Falkirk and every outfield player in their team had better technique than every outfield played in ours that we were fkd. Nobody who watched that could be surprised that we're now in the position of getting a hiding in Kazakhstan. There have been slight improvements since, but other countries keep improving too. It's a technical game now and I've stood behind enough youth coaches to know that we have very, very little hope of catching up.

I've ranted about this here a few times and I'm absolutely certain nothing will improve for at least the next 10 years. 

[GordonS]

10 minutes ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

It did occur to me a while back that we have the worst tournament record of all the UK nations. Sure, we've qualified a few times more than Wales and the Norn, but they've done better with the chances they've had when they get there. Pretending otherwise just seems like pedantry.

*sigh*

And it's no coincidence that England are, by an absolute mile, the biggest underachievers in world football. It's because we have the same youth football environment. But they might have cracked it and I think they're favourites for Euro 2021.

[BFTD]

3 minutes ago, GordonS said:

And it's no coincidence that England are, by an absolute mile, the biggest underachievers in world football. It's because we have the same youth football environment. But they might have cracked it and I think they're favourites for Euro 2021.

Really regretting starting this thread now  

Absolute gazing into the abyss stuff.

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

It did occur to me a while back that we have the worst tournament record of all the UK nations. Sure, we've qualified a few times more than Wales and the Norn, but they've done better with the chances they've had when they get there. Pretending otherwise just seems like pedantry.

*sigh*

Northern Ireland have reached the last 8 of a major tournament once and the last 16 of a major tournament twice. We've reached the last 8 of a major tournament once and the last 16 of a major tournament on five occasions.

[GordonS]

2 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Really regretting starting this thread now  

Absolute gazing into the abyss stuff.

Necessity is the mother of invention and all that. Maybe we'll find a way to play 2-3-4-1-0 formation and revolutionise football by keeping possession for 90 minutes...

Marshall

Tierney Robertson

Gilmour McTominay McGinn

Forrest McGregor Armstrong Fraser

Christie

[GordonS]

3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Northern Ireland have reached the last 8 of a major tournament once and the last 16 of a major tournament twice. We've reached the last 8 of a major tournament once and the last 16 of a major tournament on five occasions.

Sure, but they're a diddy wee non-country less than a third our size with no real clubs, the same crappy culture as us, who lose players to the country next door from which they were carved and whose fans send their own players death threats because they're the wrong religion. Over the course of time we shouldn't be in the same bracket as them.

And they still made the last 16 of a tournament four years ago having topped their qualification group, while we weren't in the 27 best countries in qualifying (which obviously doesn't include the host either). 

Ask a Northern Irish fan if they'd swap their past for ours and I think they'd say no.

[ahemps]

4 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Was that not the 1-0 defeat where they had about one shot on goal and looked like garbage, while we parked the bus and hoped to squeak a point like we were playing Pele's Brazil?

Czech Republic had lost there last home game to Lithuania 1-0. I remember thinking they’re not as good as they used to be, we can have a go here and at least get a draw away to them. I saw the lineup and realised that was all we were playing for, was so demoralised at the lack of ambition. 

[ahemps]

3 hours ago, GordonS said:

And it's no coincidence that England are, by an absolute mile, the biggest underachievers in world football. It's because we have the same youth football environment. But they might have cracked it and I think they're favourites for Euro 2021.

England are doing something right at the minute. I see a similar pattern that happened with Spain then Germany in that there youth teams won multiple youth tournaments then won a major tournament. England could win a major trophy in the next 6-8 years. 
 

[GordonS]

1 hour ago, ahemps said:

England are doing something right at the minute. I see a similar pattern that happened with Spain then Germany in that there youth teams won multiple youth tournaments then won a major tournament. England could win a major trophy in the next 6-8 years. 
 

Normally I'd say next year is too soon for them, but they've got all 3 group games at home and a good draw, so they should win the group. Then they'd play in Dublin against the second-placed team in the Portugal-France-Germany group, which is very tough but winnable, especially if France win that group. Next up would likely be the winner of the Poland-Spain-Sweden group in Rome. Tough again, though England beat Spain in Seville in the Nations League. Then they have a semi and final at Wembley and would take some stopping.

For me they're weak favourites to win the thing.

[Guest JTS98]

13 hours ago, GordonS said:

In my opinion we are by far the biggest underachievers among the middle rank of European countries. We can make all the excuses we like about bad luck and tough draws, but over the course of 36 tournaments we have achieved precisely fk all. Over that time there's no way we've had that much worse luck than similar countries. We had teams rammed with guys who'd won the European Cup and English league that couldn't even qualify. In the early 80s Dundee Utd and Aberdeen were among the best sides in Europe - they could beat Barcelona and Real Madrid, but Scotland couldn't beat the USSR, Denmark or Uruguay. We finished behind Belgium, Austria and Portugal in Euro 80 qualifying and behind Belgium, Switzerland and East Germany for Euro 84 - bottom of the group.

That's the past of course - the present is so much worse.

A little bit harsh on the 80s sides there. It looks rubbish now, but you need to give it the context of the time. They were tough draws.

The Belgium side who won our 1980 group got to the final and lost narrowly to West Germany. The Austria team in that group had topped Brazil's group at the 78 World Cup and would go on to do well again in 82. They were a good team.

There's no shame in drawing with the 82 USSR side, which was goal difference away from the semi-finals and lost only to Brazil at that tournament. What knocked us out was going to sleep for a few minutes against New Zealand.

We lost narrowly to Denmark in 1986, but they also put 6 past Uruguay and beat eventual finalists West Germany. Two years previously they had lost the Euro semi-final on penalties and two years later they would qualify for the 8-team Euros again and be put on the back foot by a shocking offside decision against Spain. They were a serious outfit.

The other team that beat us (narrowly) in that group was the West Germany side that got to the final of that tournament. It's not a disgraceful showing.

Of course, not beating Uruguay is a bad one given they played about 90 minutes with ten men. But it was an era where teams could, and did, kick each other off the park.

Edited June 20, 2020 by JTS98

[ahemps]

14 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

Don't forget Uruguay.

Where's Supras to bang on for twenty pages about population until everyone gives up? I think I could probably recite those arguments from memory.

Uruguay is only above 3m so is more similar to Wales, which shows how good they are.

I don't think population size is the only factor as I wouldn't compare us with India but as these countries all like football I think it's kind of fair to compare. Although now thinking about it, another factor is would football be considered their number 1 sport? It is ours by a country mile but Ireland, Finland and Norway might not class it as theirs which makes it look even worse that we aren't consistently as good if not better than those nations.

[Guest JTS98]

47 minutes ago, ahemps said:

Uruguay is only above 3m so is more similar to Wales, which shows how good they are.

I don't think population size is the only factor as I wouldn't compare us with India but as these countries all like football I think it's kind of fair to compare. Although now thinking about it, another factor is would football be considered their number 1 sport? It is ours by a country mile but Ireland, Finland and Norway might not class it as theirs which makes it look even worse that we aren't consistently as good if not better than those nations.

That's a fair point, but while Norway for example emphasises winter sports a lot, I think these days football is the dominant one. It's also possible, although I'm no expert here, that the high level of participation in other sports produces a fitter, sportier population of potential footballers.

The comparison with Ireland shows how well they've done in utilising the diaspora. Look at their sides that did well in 88, 90, and 94 and look at how many of the players were English or Scottish. 7 of their starting 11 that beat England at Euro 88 were not born in Ireland. It balances out football not being your number one sport when you can pick up players from countries where it is.

Ireland didn't 'produce' that side. They picked it up from players other countries didn't pick. If Scotland started a national baseball team, we could probably pick up some pretty good American players on the granny rule.

Similarly, 8 of their 13 that got on the pitch when they beat Italy in 94 were Scottish or English and they beat Italy (reserves) in 2016 with a couple of players from Northern Ireland and a few more from Scotland and England in their side.

Half of their World Cup finals goals have been scored by diaspora players. They benefit hugely from that.

Of course they are not alone. Albania went to Euro 2016 with a diaspora squad. Six from Switzerland alone. Croatia have Rakitic, who is a product of Swiss football and they've had loads of non-Croat players in their sides over the years, particularly from Germany.

Edited June 20, 2020 by JTS98

[Carnoustie Young Guvnor]

16 hours ago, DAVIDB69 said:

 

With many of the old games that have been on recently was shocked that tosh McKinlay made the finals squad at 34 despite not playing very much.

I always assumed the no club football but getting international games was a much later thing than 98

 

That's cause David Robertson who was fuckin quality btw had thrown a strop about not being guaranteed first choice and therefore wasn't part of the squad. Tremendous player but bit of a fanny.

[stuart87]

We need a goalie, two centre backs, a right back and a couple of decent strikers then we will be really good