TxRover Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 23 minutes ago, JagsCG said: I agree, Directing blame at clubs who didn’t vote for Reconstruction, is wrong. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that had more clubs voted for Reconstruction, we wouldn’t have this whole mess. Hearts and Thistle didn’t and don’t want this to go to court, had reconstruction happened, no team would be worse off during a pandemic and the 1st place teams would have got promoted. Clubs didn’t want it, fine fair enough, but they knew what was coming if they didn’t want it, again, no one wanted it to come to this. It’s also laughable that some people think they have some sort of moral high ground when if their club was in the position of Hearts or in the position of Thistle, they’d be urging their board to do exactly what Ann Budge and Jacqui Low have done. No club would be happily accepting relegation when the season was halted, especially not in Thistle case, with a game in hand, it’s a lie and equally embarrassing (as the original point) if you think otherwise. And if Partick and Hearts had played better at any point in the first 75% of the season, this wouldn’t be a factor either... I find it fascinating that these two teams pretend to believe that it’s only fair they be compensated for a relegation that they played their respective ways into. The whole complaint about one less game for Partick is a red herring pushed by Hearts to take the eyes off their complete failure to compete. The debate about null and void coming back up is amusing because the Dutch case that gets talked about found that null and void was unfair and resulted in a need to compensate the teams that weren’t promoted...exactly the opposite of what happened here. The most basic factor here is that the SPFL never established a process for deciding what to do in the case of a season shutting down early, something that was foreseeable. Now a process has been established for this season, and will likely be adapted to be an ongoing standard. However, meanwhile, throwing a tantrum and tossing all your toys from the pram when you don’t got your way because the rest of the teams voted on a rational solution to a vexing problem is not an adult reaction. With regard to Partick’s claims about playing one less game, their appropriate missing game was at home versus Alloa, who they played to three 1-1 draws this season. Their average home points earned was about 0.8 versus getting 1 point each time against Alloa the previous games. Neither is closing a three point gap, because three is the minimum they would need to pass QoS (due to QoS’s GD advantage), so the rational collective decision by the SPFL was made because games could not be played. Look at Falkirk, who have accepted they were a point adrift when the season was ended. They aren’t happy, but they also accept that decisions made during the season impacted their table position at what ended up being the end of the season. Are they happy, no...but they have accepted that that’s football and are moving forward, like adults. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 36 minutes ago, David W said: If Hearts wanted clubs to vote for reconstruction, they should have consulted with said clubs and not wasted months getting on board with nonsense proposals like 14-14-14 and colt teams. I can’t disagree with you, it should have been 14-10-10-10 from the start. But to be fair on two points, they did consult with clubs, they (SPFL) set up a task force with chairmen/chairwomen from across the leagues, to get a broad opinion on it. And the colt team proposal, which I agree especially in the 14-14-18, was nonsense, was proposed by Rangers and had nothing to do with Hearts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 43 minutes ago, TxRover said: With regard to Partick’s claims about playing one less game, their appropriate missing game was at home versus Alloa, who they played to three 1-1 draws this season. Their average home points earned was about 0.8 versus getting 1 point each time against Alloa the previous games. Neither is closing a three point gap, because three is the minimum they would need to pass QoS (due to QoS’s GD advantage), so the rational collective decision by the SPFL was made because games could not be played. Our game in hand was against Caley Thistle, who we had beaten home and away, 3-1 this season. Alloa was the next game we had to play, but it wasn’t our game in hand. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 53 minutes ago, TxRover said: And if Partick and Hearts had played better at any point in the first 75% of the season, this wouldn’t be a factor either... No it would be, it would just be a factor for a different two teams. You are genuinely kidding yourself if you think, other teams would sit and have their belly tickled and roll over (which is actually usually what Thistle do). If Rangers were 2 points behind Celtic with a game in hand, at the top of the league, or vice versa, do you think they'd just accept it, absolutely not, in fact the SPFL wouldn't even have called the leagues, they'd have either played it out or voided it (I'm no advocate of null and void), It should be no different for the big clubs in the league, to the smaller ones like Thistle. Baffling that people, actually have such a lack of understanding, really surprises me, especially certain people. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Partick have been consistently fucking shite. They were shite in the first quarter of the season, they sacked Caldwell and continued to be shite, they then had a big turnover of players in January and surprise, surprise continued to be shite. Unless you can answer what was suddenly going to change then your never going to get sympathy. Take your medicine and get doon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, JagsCG said: I agree, Directing blame at clubs who didn’t vote for Reconstruction, is wrong. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that had more clubs voted for Reconstruction, we wouldn’t have this whole mess. Hearts and Thistle didn’t and don’t want this to go to court, had reconstruction happened, no team would be worse off during a pandemic and the 1st place teams would have got promoted. Clubs didn’t want it, fine fair enough, but they knew what was coming if they didn’t want it, again, no one wanted it to come to this. It’s also laughable that some people think they have some sort of moral high ground when if their club was in the position of Hearts or in the position of Thistle, they’d be urging their board to do exactly what Ann Budge and Jacqui Low have done. No club would be happily accepting relegation when the season was halted, especially not in Thistle case, with a game in hand, it’s a lie and equally embarrassing (as the original point) if you think otherwise. It doesn't matter how often you, Ann Budge, Tom English or anyone else says this, it's not actually true. Reconstruction has a potential financial cost for every single club. The funding of the extra Premiership places and the two new SPFL entrants has to come from somewhere. The proposal which was overwhelmingly voted down last week would have reduced the prize money allocation for every single position in the SPFL with the exception of 13 and 14. In addition to that, the range of potential prize money which each club could earn would change. Premiership clubs who are currently guaranteed at least the 12th place amount would now only be guaranteed the new uplifted 14th place amount. Championship clubs would be playing for the 15th-24th placed prize money instead of the 13th-22nd, and so on through the divisions. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 1 minute ago, craigkillie said: It doesn't matter how often you, Ann Budge, Tom English or anyone else says this, it's not actually true. Reconstruction has a potential financial cost for every single club. The funding of the extra Premiership places and the two new SPFL entrants has to come from somewhere. The proposal which was overwhelmingly voted down last week would have reduced the prize money allocation for every single position in the SPFL with the exception of 13 and 14. In addition to that, the range of potential prize money which each club could earn would change. Premiership clubs who are currently guaranteed at least the 12th place amount would now only be guaranteed the new uplifted 14th place amount. Championship clubs would be playing for the 15th-24th placed prize money instead of the 13th-22nd, and so on through the divisions. What would cost clubs more, the potential of compensation to be paid in or out of court, or Reconstruction? and if we are referring to all 42 clubs here, court is also costing Hearts money, so money is being lost, time is been being lost, and more money could be lost in the future, with the potential (just going by the latest from the papers), of an interdict placed by the court, to stop the league from starting, which is then potential money loss from Sky Sports. So actually Reconstruction is much better than the unknown of compensation, of a court case, of an interdict or otherwise. I don't want any club (and you probably won't hear many Jags fans agree with this), to go under, I don't want any club to be in a worse position because they couldn't play their games, I don't mind clubs being in a better position (i.e Raith), but i don't want any club to be in a worse position. When I said no teams would be worse off, I meant through dropping a league (the exact same reason why 14-14-14, was a ridiculous proposal as it was unfair on the likes of Clyde, and Peterhead). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartcraig Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 hours ago, JagsCG said: I agree, Directing blame at clubs who didn’t vote for Reconstruction, is wrong. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that had more clubs voted for Reconstruction, we wouldn’t have this whole mess. Hearts and Thistle didn’t and don’t want this to go to court, I love the way that Thistle and Hearts have absolutely no agency in this worldview of yours. When clubs voted against reconstruction it left them with absolutely no choice except, perhaps, accepting their relegation and just getting on with planning for 2020/21, the same way that clubs who missed out on promotion (via 1st place or play offs) took their medicine like big boys. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, stuartcraig said: I love the way that Thistle and Hearts have absolutely no agency in this worldview of yours. When clubs voted against reconstruction it left them with absolutely no choice except, perhaps, accepting their relegation and just getting on with planning for 2020/21, the same way that clubs who missed out on promotion (via 1st place or play offs) took their medicine like big boys. Every club in every league will be getting on with planning as much as they can for 2020/21, including Thistle and Hearts, what's your point? This court stuff is about the businesses that are, Hearts FC PLC and Partick Thistle FC LTD, it's not relevant to the actual team. For simple clarification, Robbie Neilson and Ian McCall, have no relevance to any of this court nonsense, that's all to do with upstairs in the boardroom, so to speak, I'm sure they have accepted their relegation and are both building their teams for a Championship and League 1 title push, (just like us fans), it's Ann Budge and Jacqui Low, that are the only 2 relevant to the court case, and therefore your point. Edited June 23, 2020 by JagsCG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 36 minutes ago, parsforlife said: Partick have been consistently fucking shite. They were shite in the first quarter of the season, they sacked Caldwell and continued to be shite, they then had a big turnover of players in January and surprise, surprise continued to be shite. Unless you can answer what was suddenly going to change then your never going to get sympathy. Take your medicine and get doon. You are 100% correct, we were terrible for most of the season, theres stacks of evidence of that in the Thistle forum, after several games, you'll see probably every Thistle fan agree with that. We actually were starting to look better before the lockdown (in the league anyway), as Queens looked hopeless, we'd probably have finished 9th, and maybe lost in the play-off. I accept us going down, I do think compensation is in order for the loss of earnings, but I can't disagree with most of what you said, especially the first bit you are bang on. Dreadful for 3 years straight. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartcraig Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, JagsCG said: Every club in every league will be getting on with planning as much as they can for 2020/21, including Thistle and Hearts, what's your point? This court stuff is about the businesses that are, Hearts FC PLC and Partick Thistle FC LTD, it's not relevant to the actual team. For simple clarification, Robbie Neilson and Ian McCall, have no relevance to any of this court nonsense, that's all to do with upstairs in the boardroom, so to speak, I'm sure they have accepted their relegation and are both building their teams for a Championship and League 1 title push, (just like us fans), it's Ann Budge and Jacqui Low, that are the only 2 relevant to the court case, and therefore your point. What's my point? Well you ignored it but the main point was that no-one "forced" Hearts and Partick to launch a legal action. They chose to. The incidental point you seem to be responding to is the fact that this court action is throwing the start of the new season into doubt at a time when clubs will be trying to figure out their budgets and plan accordingly. Any delay will impact revenue and cashflow position and that will, in turn, impact when and if clubs are able to pay the wages of the players that they need to sign for next season. I can't imagine anyone being so naive that they would fail to make the connection. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 44 minutes ago, JagsCG said: What would cost clubs more, the potential of compensation to be paid in or out of court, or Reconstruction? and if we are referring to all 42 clubs here, court is also costing Hearts money, so money is being lost, time is been being lost, and more money could be lost in the future, with the potential (just going by the latest from the papers), of an interdict placed by the court, to stop the league from starting, which is then potential money loss from Sky Sports. So actually Reconstruction is much better than the unknown of compensation, of a court case, of an interdict or otherwise. I don't want any club (and you probably won't hear many Jags fans agree with this), to go under, I don't want any club to be in a worse position because they couldn't play their games, I don't mind clubs being in a better position (i.e Raith), but i don't want any club to be in a worse position. When I said no teams would be worse off, I meant through dropping a league (the exact same reason why 14-14-14, was a ridiculous proposal as it was unfair on the likes of Clyde, and Peterhead). Nobody forced Hearts or Thistle to go to court, and pretty much every single one of those consequences you outline is as a result of that. What you basically appear to be suggesting is that the other clubs should have allowed themselves to be blackmailed into voting through a reconstruction they didn't want purely to save themselves from being sued, even if they think the court case has little chance of success. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 10 minutes ago, stuartcraig said: What's my point? Well you ignored it but the main point was that no-one "forced" Hearts and Partick to launch a legal action. They chose to. The incidental point you seem to be responding to is the fact that this court action is throwing the start of the new season into doubt at a time when clubs will be trying to figure out their budgets and plan accordingly. Any delay will impact revenue and cashflow position and that will, in turn, impact when and if clubs are able to pay the wages of the players that they need to sign for next season. I can't imagine anyone being so naive that they would fail to make the connection. I didn’t ignore it, I asked what it was. For what’s it worth I actually agree with pretty much all of what you are saying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, craigkillie said: Nobody forced Hearts or Thistle to go to court. Agreed, it was always the plan of action (for Hearts anyway). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadwell Dog Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Surely Doncaster and his crew couldve saved a whole lot of grief if they had simply factored a reasonable compensation for the relegated clubs into their ending the league proposal. They've left the spfl open to attack via legal action by not doing that and we're now in a right mess. If the spfl are happy to pay out cash to sky and bt etc for ending early then surely they couldve provided some compensation for the clubs that were heavily affected by their plan too. We'd all then be concentrating on getting football started instead of not knowing whose in what league. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 43 minutes ago, JagsCG said: You are 100% correct, we were terrible for most of the season, theres stacks of evidence of that in the Thistle forum, after several games, you'll see probably every Thistle fan agree with that. We actually were starting to look better before the lockdown (in the league anyway), as Queens looked hopeless, we'd probably have finished 9th, and maybe lost in the play-off. Ah yes that great form of. checks notes no wins in 2020. forgot about that 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, parsforlife said: Ah yes that great form of. checks notes no wins in 2020. forgot about that Where did I say we had great form. We’ve not had great form in years I literally just said I agreed with you about Thistle’s season. Instead of trying to appease people maybe read what I said. I agreed 100% with you. Edited June 23, 2020 by JagsCG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 You said it was an improvement in form, which quite clearly there wasn’t. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JagsCG Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 Just now, parsforlife said: You said it was an improvement in form, which quite clearly there wasn’t. I said we were looking a bit better in the league prior to lockdown. Did you watch the full 90 of our last 3 matches prior to lockdown? I’m guessing no, so I’ll stick with my point. We weren’t looking that good, but it was a improvement on how we had been doing, things were looking a bit brighter for us, that was all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parsforlife Posted June 23, 2020 Share Posted June 23, 2020 I watched you need a series of poor refereeing decisions to scramble a point against us, when we were putting in one of our shit the bed performances that we had put in 4 times previously that season. The other results were all defeats including to Edinburgh city and Stranraer. The other 2 games involved you failing to defeat your immediate rivals at home and getting a point to Dundee United that were more interested in their holidays and how to celebrate winning the league than they were in putting in a good performance. If that’s notable improvement you should have been already planning your trips to the seaside* *sorry Baracus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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