27 games. 14,10,10,10

[craigkillie]

They would make exactly the same sorts of arguments in reverse, that the SPFL changed the rules mid-season and that they were disadvantaged by a decision which denied them the opportunity to gain promotion. Hearts don't have the cash to pay their players properly and have still managed to afford legal action.

[Shadwell Dog]

Just now, craigkillie said:

They would make exactly the same sorts of arguments in reverse, that the SPFL changed the rules mid-season and that they were disadvantaged by a decision which denied them the opportunity to gain promotion. Hearts don't have the cash to pay their players properly and have still managed to afford legal action.

Yes because they're getting it paid for them just like thistle ffs.

[The Moonster]

2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

They would make exactly the same sorts of arguments in reverse, that the SPFL changed the rules mid-season and that they were disadvantaged by a decision which denied them the opportunity to gain promotion. 

If that's the case, why aren't Falkirk/Montrose/East Fife taking legal action right now? They can all argue the above point. Rules were changed mid-season, they had a chance of promotion and have been disadvantaged by the season being called early. I guess they aren't taking legal action either due to costs or because it won't stand up in court.

[Gordon EF]

6 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

They would make exactly the same sorts of arguments in reverse, that the SPFL changed the rules mid-season and that they were disadvantaged by a decision which denied them the opportunity to gain promotion. Hearts don't have the cash to pay their players properly and have still managed to afford legal action.

in that case, the majority of clubs could probably take action as they theoretically could have been promoted. You can make the reverse argument but it's much more ridiculous.

[Brummo]

29 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

If that's the case, why aren't Falkirk/Montrose/East Fife taking legal action right now? They can all argue the above point. Rules were changed mid-season, they had a chance of promotion and have been disadvantaged by the season being called early. I guess they aren't taking legal action either due to costs or because it won't stand up in court.

Montrose FC aren't taking legal action because we are an awesome club.

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

If that's the case, why aren't Falkirk/Montrose/East Fife taking legal action right now? They can all argue the above point. Rules were changed mid-season, they had a chance of promotion and have been disadvantaged by the season being called early. I guess they aren't taking legal action either due to costs or because it won't stand up in court.

I don't think Hearts and Thistle's argument will stand up in court either (not that I'm convinced it will ever get there), but I'd say each of those other clubs you mentioned would also at least have enough grounds for putting some form of legal case forward. Even someone like Hibs who dropped from 6th to 7th based on PPG could have a claim for loss of income.

I think that would be strongest for Dundee United and Cove, both of whom could justifiably argue that any reasonable person would have expected them to be promoted from their position and that they have been denied the additional income associated with the change in decision.

[The Moonster]

Just now, craigkillie said:

I don't think Hearts and Thistle's argument will stand up in court either (not that I'm convinced it will ever get there), but I'd say each of those other clubs you mentioned would also at least have enough grounds for putting some form of legal case forward. Even someone like Hibs who dropped from 6th to 7th based on PPG could have a claim for loss of income.

I think that would be strongest for Dundee United and Cove, both of whom could justifiably argue that any reasonable person would have expected them to be promoted from their position and that they have been denied the additional income associated with the change in decision.

I think Hearts and Thistle have a better case than Dundee United or Cove. I do tend to agree with the suggestion it won't reach court though, SPFL will offer something and the clubs will take it and move on.

[stuartcraig]

2 hours ago, JagsCG said:

They haven’t mentioned stoping the leagues from happening, and that would be a horrific thing for Hearts and/or Thistle to do.

So they definitely haven't ruled it out.

Has either party definitely said that they're only seeking compensation through the courts?

2 hours ago, JagsCG said:

I’m no legal expert, I’m saying the courts can’t force reconstruction. That’s common knowledge. They grant money, they can’t force clubs to vote something they don’t want to vote. It’s no turnaround.

The courts can rule that the decision to relegate broke the law and leave it at that.  It'll be up to the SPFL to go away and find a different approach.

[stuartcraig]

12 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I don't think Hearts and Thistle's argument will stand up in court either (not that I'm convinced it will ever get there), but I'd say each of those other clubs you mentioned would also at least have enough grounds for putting some form of legal case forward. Even someone like Hibs who dropped from 6th to 7th based on PPG could have a claim for loss of income.

I think that would be strongest for Dundee United and Cove, both of whom could justifiably argue that any reasonable person would have expected them to be promoted from their position and that they have been denied the additional income associated with the change in decision.

A decision in favour of Hearts / Partick may set a precedent that Stanraer could take advantage of.

The clubs in the play off spots would likely have to make an independent case.

[JagsCG]

6 minutes ago, stuartcraig said:

The courts can rule that the decision to relegate broke the law and leave it at that.  It'll be up to the SPFL to go away and find a different approach.

Absolutely, but it is unlikely, they’ll do that. No idea what the SPFL’s other approach would be. All a massive mess, to be perfectly honest. 

[CALDERON]

To me the fairest situation was rewarding probable/possible promotion and not punishing probable/possible relegation.  The 14-10-10-10 would have done that, so I'm a wee bit disappointed that didnt go through to be honest.

Null and void was never going to happen given that Celtic are miles top and that 3 of the 4 leagues were pretty much sewn up.  I can understand why people think it was their preferred option (not that I agreed) but was amazed to see people come out with lines like "It can't be anything other than null and void".

I do think that if all the leagues were as close as League 1 then it may have been a different conversation. I would agree with the line that the relegated teams have a better case in that instance, but in reality Dundee Utd and Cove were going to win their leagues, even more probable than the bottom teams going down. I reckon you would have ended up with aggrieved teams either way, and null/void would have lead to an aggrieved Celtic. 

Edited June 17, 2020 by CALDERON

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

I don't think those clubs have the cash to do it, but aside from that the situations are different. Hearts/Thistle/Stranraer all have a case for compensation because they hadn't been relegated when the games stopped and can prove that they will now lose money as a result of relegation being forced on them. Dundee United/Raith/Cove hadn't won anything, so how do you claim loss of earnings for a promotion you hadn't yet won? It would've been a pisser for them, no doubt, but I don't see how their claim is the same as Hearts/Thistle/Stranraer.

Dundee United have burnt through literally millions of pounds in losses trying to get back into the top flight and would almost certainly have been able to fund a legal challenge themselves. And of course by null and voiding the leagues you'd be saying that Celtic didn't win a title as well, so the idea that null and void would have avoided three months of back and forth arguments and legal challenges is really just nonsense. 

The reason why we're here now is because Hearts have lost every single other piece on the board and so are going for broke. Let them. 

[Bluegrass Bairn]

15 minutes ago, CALDERON said:

To me the fairest situation was rewarding probable/possible promotion and not punishing probable/possible relegation.  The 14-10-10-10 would have done that, so I'm a wee bit disappointed that didnt go through to be honest.

Null and void was never going to happen given that Celtic are miles top and that 3 of the 4 leagues were pretty much sewn up.  

I do think that if all the leagues were as close as League 1 then it may have been a different conversation. 

Agree with your summary C, other than "May" have been??  I'd happily wager colossal wedges of cash that the conversation - and vote - would've been radically different. Our 'football family', indeed. 

[EdinburghBlue]

I’m no legal expert, I’m saying the courts can’t force reconstruction. That’s common knowledge. They grant money, they can’t force clubs to vote something they don’t want to vote. It’s no turnaround.
 

The court may ask the SPFL to reconsider their decision. They might then conclude that restructuring is a cheaper option than having to indemnify the three relegated clubs for their entire consequential loss of income.

[iamnotgarybollan]

Has anyone had it confirmed what clubs voted for reconstruction? Forfar and Peterhead did and you’d imagine Falkirk did as well

Were Partick classed as L1 for this?

[JagsCG]

6 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

The court may ask the SPFL to reconsider their decision. They might then conclude that restructuring is a cheaper option than having to indemnify the three relegated clubs for their entire consequential loss of income.

Fair point, I take that on board, it seems plausible. 

[JagsCG]

Just now, iamnotgarybollan said:

Has anyone had it confirmed what clubs voted for reconstruction? Forfar and Peterhead did and you’d imagine Falkirk did as well

Were Partick classed as L1 for this?

Thistle were League 1 for the vote

[Newbornbairn]

50 minutes ago, CALDERON said:

 

I do think that if all the leagues were as close as League 1 then it may have been a different conversation. 

Quite. Do you imagine the decision would have been the same if one of the Glasgow bigots had been one point behind the other with a home game to come?

[Bairn in Exile]

"Heart of Midlothian Football Club and Partick Thistle Football Club have today lodged a petition with the Court of Session to challenge the unfair and unjust decision of the SPFL to enforce relegations, to the extreme detriment of those clubs affected.

Unfortunately, Scottish football has been unable to pull together at this time of national crisis to prevent the need for this legal challenge. We desperately hoped Court action would not be necessary, but we were left with no other option.

For clarity, our petition does not seek to set aside or unravel the fee payments made to clubs, nor indeed the declaration of Champions, or the nomination of clubs who will participate in European competition.

Instead, the petition primarily seeks to reduce the unfair resolution insofar as it changed the SPFL’s rules on promotion and relegation. If that remedy is not granted by the Court, we seek, in the alternative, awards of compensation relative to the significant financial loss which the unfair relegations will visit upon us.

As matters stand, we have not asked the Court to grant an interim interdict which would prevent next Season commencing on 1 August. However, we have to reserve our right to do so in the event that becomes necessary.

We would emphasise instead that we have no wish to disrupt Scottish football but rather our aim is to have the proceedings litigated to a conclusion as quickly as possible. In that regard, the Court has today granted our motion to reduce the normal period within which the SPFL must answer our petition, to 7 days.

No further comment will be made by either Club at this time."

 

 

The biggest loser in all of this is the game itself. Any pretence of a “football family” existing has been well and truly shattered by this whole sorry episode. When we do get back to playing football and chairman and board members are “greeting” their counterparts from the visiting club, If they were on either side of the vote, there will be cursory handshakes, no real warmth, and they will just want to get the game out of the way a.s.a.p. The atmosphere will be toxic and it could spread to the fans in the stands as well. It might take years for things to get back to normal, if ever.

Doncaster has presided over all of this, he should be ashamed of himself for the harm he has caused our game.

 

[iamnotgarybollan]

Thistle were League 1 for the vote

That’ll be the fourth vote for reconstruction then