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GallowayBlue

Colt team proposal

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6 hours ago, harry94 said:

In all honesty, I don't really think it would change the market dynamics that much. The OF have a large number of players in their reserves, it's really not as easy to sort out loans for all of them.

Loads of them are farmed out on loan at the moment and usually at significant subsidy to the loaning club. The point is that would dry-up if the Old Firm were able to give them regular competitive Saturday football without having to do so.

6 hours ago, harry94 said:

I guess you could argue it may be a tad more attractive for the prestige of playing for Celtic B or whatever to influence their pulling power but that's already near infinite already, as much as we get the 'gid young player learning his trade' talk whenever a player thrives elsewhere away from the OF, it's very rarely the case that they've actively picked a non OF club intentionally.

The difference, Harry, is that whereas maybe 5 or 6 youth prospects are kept full time at Celtic Park and Ibrox right now, with the rest playing for other clubs on a Saturday and training with the Bigots midweek for the Development League, a Colts team means that they will now keep more than 20 youngsters each: 5 or 6 for the first team then a 2nd XI with full subs for the Colts. Only they now won't loan them out at all because they're needed to play against Edinburgh City on a Saturday at 3pm.

Once you have a Colts team and the Old Firm aren't loaning their good youths out, that means being loaned out is evidence that you are a failure. Therefore players will do everything they can to stay in the Colts Team. And if they're then all being released at 23 instead of 19 or 20, that's several years of prime football development wasted.

6 hours ago, harry94 said:

You aren't increasing their income by anything that couldn't be considered a rounding error either so I also don't see that sparking a huge recruitment drive.

Nonsense. The wages the Old Firm pay their youth players totally dwarfs what the teams they're loaned to would pay for them. Sometimes by orders of magnitude.

6 hours ago, harry94 said:

Don't get me wrong, throwing this OF exclusive arrangement into the current small national set-up right now is lunacy and a really terrible idea at a terrible time which has been well covered but I think if we actually had a set-up that could support the full-time clubs fielding sides further down the set-up without completely destroying teams fixture calendars (i.e. a firm limit on no of colt teams v relative league size), there could be reasonable benefits reaped from it. In Spain, they have a third tier of 100 teams (as of next season) and well defined geographical territories. We've had this fragmentation with the juniors in this country which is finally eroding but as much as people scream the mantra 'too many teams in Scotland', we don't actually have that big of a national pyramid (Norway for example have 144 teams down to level 4).

Pish and nonsense. You cannot compare the football pyramid of a country 9 times the size of Scotland, where geographical subdivisions are viable, to one where that is not the case.

The only clubs for whom a fully-fledged Reserves or Colts team is financially viable are the Bigot Brothers and they are also the only clubs for whom it promises any meaningful benefit. Other provincial clubs can get all the benefits of a youth pathway either through boys clubs or through existing youth set-ups. They barely have the money to put up a fight in terms of putting a first team on the park: being expected or encouraged to sustain two will just dilute their position further.

6 hours ago, harry94 said:

I don't know if we can ever get to a system where this can be done in a way that people can live with but we do know that renaming the u20 league back to being a reserve league (and a couple of practically minor rule changes) hasn't dramatically changed the competitive element of second string football and unless we're going to rewrite the loan system to fundamentally change how part-time teams recruit (making Celtic B = Stenhousemuir), I'm not really sure where we go. Maybe another path is to require ringfenced funding for reserve football and some further incentives to compete more seriously but obviously now is not a good time for that either!

How about:

(a) requiring every club to register a maximum of 25 players for the league campaign

(b) requiring that no more than 20 of those can be over the age of 23

(c) impose a ban on any club signing more than 15 players between the ages of 16 and 22 on a full time contract

(d) make it a mandatory condition of every player registration that the contract includes a no-fault termination clause able to be exercised by the player if they are under 22 and have not played in a league game that season

Basically, force the Old Firm to recruit fewer young players and force clubs to play the young players that they sign.

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How about:
(a) requiring every club to register a maximum of 25 players for the league campaign
(b) requiring that no more than 20 of those can be over the age of 23
© impose a ban on any club signing more than 15 players between the ages of 16 and 22 on a full time contract
(d) make it a mandatory condition of every player registration that the contract includes a no-fault termination clause able to be exercised by the player if they are under 22 and have not played in a league game that season
Basically, force the Old Firm to recruit fewer young players and force clubs to play the young players that they sign.


I like your thinking. Out of interest, is there any example of this being tried and delivering benefits?

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On 07/06/2020 at 18:37, foreverarover said:
On 05/06/2020 at 21:55, GallowayBlue said:
On the face of it, £125k upfront sounds like a lot.
If it is split between the 16 other third tier clubs that would be around £7800. 
200 tickets at £15 a pop four times per season would be a further £12,000.
So clubs in the third tier stand to make around £20,000 extra in the first season. Less in subsequent seasons.
Will clubs be able to say no to that?
On a personal level, if my club supports it and it goes through they won’t see a penny of my money again.
 

I'm sorry but if that is anything short of bribery what is?

You are forgetting the other side of the coin. With these 'guaranteed' extra people, think of the rise in the cost of insurance, policing, stewarding. Will this alleged 'sweetener' cover all these extra costs?

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Loads of them are farmed out on loan at the moment and usually at significant subsidy to the loaning club. The point is that would dry-up if the Old Firm were able to give them regular competitive Saturday football without having to do so.

The difference, Harry, is that whereas maybe 5 or 6 youth prospects are kept full time at Celtic Park and Ibrox right now, with the rest playing for other clubs on a Saturday and training with the Bigots midweek for the Development League, a Colts team means that they will now keep more than 20 youngsters each: 5 or 6 for the first team then a 2nd XI with full subs for the Colts.




Just taking Rangers reserve squad in the most recent term and going through wikipedia quickly, it's compiled of 22 players who are in that bracket of being above that u17 level.

Of them, 8 spent some time on loan. Of these loans, a few were very short term.

At Celtic, they have 29 and about 10 who I could see had loan spells.

Both teams could clearly have retained a similar no of loans and fielded b teams with their numbers this term, I don't think it would have massively altered the dynamics (and re the point re loaning being a failure, this just isn't the case anywhere this is done - you're more promising players may still go a tier above).

The loans are a good route for teams to source cheap players receiving full time training but it is still a level of risk in terms of taking players on who are maybe a bit of an unknown quantity and may leave in the windows. As a result of that, you are easily looking at least 50 top flight players who simply will just not find suitable loans and then those numbers aren't sufficient enough to create a competitive reserve league. That's before considering that many of the loans are very short term rather than season long deals etc.

Regardless of what has driven it, there is a bit of a vacuum there.



Nonsense. The wages the Old Firm pay their youth players totally dwarfs what the teams they're loaned to would pay for them. Sometimes by orders of magnitude.



I was just talking here re this providing another financial stream to further monopolise their grip on youth, they aren't really extracting cash from this venture.



Pish and nonsense. You cannot compare the football pyramid of a country 9 times the size of Scotland, where geographical subdivisions are viable, to one where that is not the case.
The only clubs for whom a fully-fledged Reserves or Colts team is financially viable are the Bigot Brothers and they are also the only clubs for whom it promises any meaningful benefit. Other provincial clubs can get all the benefits of a youth pathway either through boys clubs or through existing youth set-ups. They barely have the money to put up a fight in terms of putting a first team on the park: being expected or encouraged to sustain two will just dilute their position further.




I don't think I explained my point well re the comparison piece. I was actually passing comment that our geography and make up of national set-up is unique and quite different from other set-ups so implementing the Colts concept is probably near impossible. I wasn't calling for any massive reorganisation (though it may eventually happen organically).

Re the point of extending this to other clubs, you have about 5 sides in the top flight who could field a squad of that sort of 18-21 year old bracket today who are not on long term loans. It would maybe be a push but I am pretty certain Hearts, Hibs and Aberdeen would follow through and possibly a wildcard or two.


How about:
(a) requiring every club to register a maximum of 25 players for the league campaign
(b) requiring that no more than 20 of those can be over the age of 23
© impose a ban on any club signing more than 15 players between the ages of 16 and 22 on a full time contract
(d) make it a mandatory condition of every player registration that the contract includes a no-fault termination clause able to be exercised by the player if they are under 22 and have not played in a league game that season
Basically, force the Old Firm to recruit fewer young players and force clubs to play the young players that they sign.



I think those are potentially good steps, I like the squad limits. I half wonder as well if maybe actually imposing a limit on loans out per club (as Fifa are trying to force) might actually be helpful for the smaller full time sides as well in getting more development opportunities for their players.

Ideally, I'd just force the excess 18-21 type players into made up teams and play a competition that way but how you force clubs to loan them into that, I don't know.

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Harry, the lower leagues aren't here to ensure that full time clubs who hoard large numbers of players are able to field second or third teams. If you've got too many players fucking release them and let them find their level in the lower leagues, there is absolutely no need to devalue a competition to give these lads a game.

I'm amazed there are c***s outside of "football twitter" or the Old Firm who think there is any evidence to support this colt team bollocks. Amazed. Haud on actually, you're not Gordon Strachan are you?

 

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19 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Harry, the lower leagues aren't here to ensure that full time clubs who hoard large numbers of players are able to field second or third teams. If you've got too many players fucking release them and let them find their level in the lower leagues, there is absolutely no need to devalue a competition to give these lads a game.

Someone, somewhere recently asked lower league teams to justify their existence by enumerating the number of young players who have moved from the lower leagues to play at "the top of the game".

Notwithstanding the fact that this isn't the "point" of lower league teams and never has been outside of the fevered imagination of failed national coaches, sports hacks, old firm c*nts and Premiership also-ran supporters who delude themselves with the belief that their team is "elite", just how exactly are lower league sides supposed to achieve this when the rich(er) clubs offer silly money to 18 year olds to kick about the youth leagues for a few years before then jettisoning them?

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Wife and kids are in a safe house and extra police patrols have been requested.

I don't have any significant objections to the old firm colts entering Div. 2.  Put in place a cast iron set of Ts and Cs to cover promotion/relegation/age groups/cups/non Scottish players etc. etc. so that the tail doesn't wag the dog any more than it currently does

It will  have very,very little influence on the quality of young players coming through.

It will provide a financial lifeline to many Div. 2 teams

Many posters on here say there is very little interest in old firm reserves or colts so minimal crowd problems. Similarly the standard is said to be poor so with relegation a possibility they will find their level.  If they are obeying the Ts and Cs it is extremely unlikely a colts team would ever reach Championship level.

Despite those who say " I will never be back if..."   I don't think there would a significant fall in home attendances - maybe 10% max. which would only be 30-40 in Div 2.   A  large majority of lower league  fans  are quite happy to support their team, buy their pie and half time draw tickets but have no serious interest in the politics and machinations of the SPFL or club board rooms.

Even if other Premier league teams wanted to have colts teams in the league they are unlikely to want to pay the "entry fee" so could come in at the same level as any other ex-Junior or new aspiring  clubs. 

 

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35 minutes ago, Another The Other Chairman said:

Many posters on here say there is very little interest in old firm reserves or colts so minimal crowd problems. Similarly the standard is said to be poor so with relegation a possibility they will find their level.  If they are obeying the Ts and Cs it is extremely unlikely a colts team would ever reach Championship level.

Despite those who say " I will never be back if..."   I don't think there would a significant fall in home attendances - maybe 10% max. which would only be 30-40 in Div 2.   A  large majority of lower league  fans  are quite happy to support their team, buy their pie and half time draw tickets but have no serious interest in the politics and machinations of the SPFL or club board rooms.

There has been a significant fall in attendances at just about every game involving colt teams. You are utterly deluded if you think this wouldn't affect the game. Utter pish that most fans aren't interested in who they play.

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49 minutes ago, Another The Other Chairman said:

Wife and kids are in a safe house and extra police patrols have been requested.

I don't have any significant objections to the old firm colts entering Div. 2.  Put in place a cast iron set of Ts and Cs to cover promotion/relegation/age groups/cups/non Scottish players etc. etc. so that the tail doesn't wag the dog any more than it currently does

It will  have very,very little influence on the quality of young players coming through.

It will provide a financial lifeline to many Div. 2 teams

Many posters on here say there is very little interest in old firm reserves or colts so minimal crowd problems. Similarly the standard is said to be poor so with relegation a possibility they will find their level.  If they are obeying the Ts and Cs it is extremely unlikely a colts team would ever reach Championship level.

Despite those who say " I will never be back if..."   I don't think there would a significant fall in home attendances - maybe 10% max. which would only be 30-40 in Div 2.   A  large majority of lower league  fans  are quite happy to support their team, buy their pie and half time draw tickets but have no serious interest in the politics and machinations of the SPFL or club board rooms.

Even if other Premier league teams wanted to have colts teams in the league they are unlikely to want to pay the "entry fee" so could come in at the same level as any other ex-Junior or new aspiring  clubs. 

 

Patronising pish.

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Phew, just as well all clubs can tell 10% of their fanbase to get knotted then, eh?

Ya gonk.

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Wife and kids are in a safe house and extra police patrols have been requested.
I don't have any significant objections to the old firm colts entering Div. 2.  Put in place a cast iron set of Ts and Cs to cover promotion/relegation/age groups/cups/non Scottish players etc. etc. so that the tail doesn't wag the dog any more than it currently does
It will  have very,very little influence on the quality of young players coming through.
It will provide a financial lifeline to many Div. 2 teams
Many posters on here say there is very little interest in old firm reserves or colts so minimal crowd problems. Similarly the standard is said to be poor so with relegation a possibility they will find their level.  If they are obeying the Ts and Cs it is extremely unlikely a colts team would ever reach Championship level.
Despite those who say " I will never be back if..."   I don't think there would a significant fall in home attendances - maybe 10% max. which would only be 30-40 in Div 2.   A  large majority of lower league  fans  are quite happy to support their team, buy their pie and half time draw tickets but have no serious interest in the politics and machinations of the SPFL or club board rooms.
Even if other Premier league teams wanted to have colts teams in the league they are unlikely to want to pay the "entry fee" so could come in at the same level as any other ex-Junior or new aspiring  clubs. 
 
A financial lifeline? It's 20k in the first season dropping down to 10k in subsequent seasons.

Nobody wants to go on watch their team play a bunch of kids. Clyde played Partick Thistle Colts in the challenge cup and the attendance was 300. We had over 1k against their first team the in the challenge cup and over 2k against them in the league cup this season.

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On 08/06/2020 at 12:31, RiG said:

Some of my favourite parts...

Colt teams will correct the wrongs of the coronavirus?! :lol: 

If you believe this then adding in teams who literally cannot progress beyond a certain tier in the league will only exacerbate the problem? 

This can literally happen right now. No need to reduce the lower tiers of Scottish football to nothing more than a glorified reserve league.

There you go diddies, shut up and eat your cereal. Time for the top flight clubs to take over. The rest of you basically don't matter and your leagues will be turned into a reserve competition for the top tier teams.

Why do people seem to think that Colt teams playing against a bunch of lower league sides will suddenly turn them into world beaters? Colt teams are seen as some kind of silver bullet to fix all the problems that the national team has but I see now evidence for this. How about we bring our coaching standards up to scratch and improve facilities for kids to play football instead?

And the team(s) that don't get promoted?

Possibly the cuntiest paragraphs in this piece of drivel. Do we ever hear the top teams in England bemoaning York City for any lack of success the national team experiences?

I had to stop reading after that before I threw my monitor out the window.
 

Keith Jackson survived having his brains being sucked out by the Killer Klowns From Outer Space.

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Wife and kids are in a safe house and extra police patrols have been requested.
I don't have any significant objections to the old firm colts entering Div. 2.  Put in place a cast iron set of Ts and Cs to cover promotion/relegation/age groups/cups/non Scottish players etc. etc. so that the tail doesn't wag the dog any more than it currently does
It will  have very,very little influence on the quality of young players coming through.
It will provide a financial lifeline to many Div. 2 teams
Many posters on here say there is very little interest in old firm reserves or colts so minimal crowd problems. Similarly the standard is said to be poor so with relegation a possibility they will find their level.  If they are obeying the Ts and Cs it is extremely unlikely a colts team would ever reach Championship level.
Despite those who say " I will never be back if..."   I don't think there would a significant fall in home attendances - maybe 10% max. which would only be 30-40 in Div 2.   A  large majority of lower league  fans  are quite happy to support their team, buy their pie and half time draw tickets but have no serious interest in the politics and machinations of the SPFL or club board rooms.
Even if other Premier league teams wanted to have colts teams in the league they are unlikely to want to pay the "entry fee" so could come in at the same level as any other ex-Junior or new aspiring  clubs. 
 
They might start as colts teams, but as soon as they start getting bodied every week, it'll be " we need to add 2 3 4... overage players for the experience", and they'll end up as reserve teams.

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1 hour ago, Jack Burton said:

A financial lifeline? It's 20k in the first season dropping down to 10k in subsequent seasons.

Nobody wants to go on watch their team play a bunch of kids. Clyde played Partick Thistle Colts in the challenge cup and the attendance was 300. We had over 1k against their first team the in the challenge cup and over 2k against them in the league cup this season.

Colts are such a bad idea they’ve made a Clyde fan make a sensible point.

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9 hours ago, stuartcraig said:

Someone, somewhere recently asked lower league teams to justify their existence by enumerating the number of young players who have moved from the lower leagues to play at "the top of the game".

Notwithstanding the fact that this isn't the "point" of lower league teams and never has been outside of the fevered imagination of failed national coaches, sports hacks, old firm c*nts and Premiership also-ran supporters who delude themselves with the belief that their team is "elite", just how exactly are lower league sides supposed to achieve this when the rich(er) clubs offer silly money to 18 year olds to kick about the youth leagues for a few years before then jettisoning them?

Also, the only undeniably world class player Scotland has produced in years came through at Queen's Park and was, hilariously released by those idiots, Celtic.

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Playing Devil's Advocate, here's a daft thought: Why doesn't anybody offer a counter proposal to Sevco: "we'll consider your Colts in League 2 proposal IF a) you'll arrange for a more equitable distribution of the SPFL prize monies, b) you agree to scrap the 11-1 voting rule in the Premiership,  c) Any future SPFL votes no longer require a 75% majority, merely a 51% majority, d) 1 club, 1 vote, e) automatic 2 up, 2 down promotion and relegation and f) the Premiership play-offs take the same format as the other league play-offs".

Edited by Bairn in Exile

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2 minutes ago, Bairn in Exile said:

Playing Devil's Advocate, here's a daft thought: Why doesn't anybody offer a counter proposal to Sevco: "we'll consider your Colts in League 2 proposal IF a) you'll arrange for a more equitable distribution of the SPFL prize monies, b) you agree to scrap the 11-1 voting rule in the Premiership,  c) Any future SPFL votes no longer require a 75% majority, merely a 51% majority and d) 1 club, 1 vote".

Because B teams are unacceptable under any circumstances.

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7 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Because B teams are unacceptable under any circumstances.

That was too bloody quick, just before I was about to edit my post!😄

I hear what you say, as I said, just playing devil's advocate to see what our fellow posters think. I have always been against colts in the league but if it does come to pass we need to get as much out of it as we can- "squeeze the lemon 'til the pips squeak".

Cheers.

Edited by Bairn in Exile

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