Colts Teams

[FairWeatherFan]

33 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

The objection to B teams goes far beyond 'you've got no fans' .

The Edu/caladonia braves project isn't one i'm a particular fan of, but i can't think of anything you can pin down as something they are doing wrong that nobody else does, you can't legislate against them just because you don't like them. B teams you can, so you should.

Any annoyance at uni sides is utterly laughable.  Some of the most historic clubs in the game that do a great job at giving players a place to develop when they have found the end of the path of pro-youth. Your annoyance is purely based on how many people watch them, an utterly mental way to attack clubs.

Hibs put a colts side in the EoSFL for the 2013-14 the year the Lowland League started. They withdrew after winning the EoS First Division so were never in the pyramid when it officially started in 2014-15. Annan Athletic and Stranraer would enter the pyramid in 2017 with the returns of their reserve sides to the SoSFL. With Caledonian Braves adding their reserves in 2019. Then there has been the near misses such as Selkirk and Inverness CT where they applied but were not accepted.

It wasn't that long that the East Region accepted Spartans Juniors which was essentially a reserve side for an EoSFL side. So once the EoSFL settles into a structure I wouldn't be shocked if another reserve applicant would eventually be accepted.

The pyramid isn't inherently against Colts being introduced.

But Rangers and Celtic occasionally floating the idea ny the SPFL with the idea of a wad of cash to follow isn't working. SPFL clubs they'd compete against aren't keen and builds resentment below as its seen as queue jumping. If you saw a concerted effort to introduce colts by Rangers & Celtic applying to the WoSFL (or SoSFL), Hearts & Hibs to the EoSFL, and Aberdeen & ICT to the Hghland it could actually gain some traction as an idea. Not that they'd ever do that as they'd think its "beneath them".

[Marten]

10 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Which is something that has already happened in the Highland League following the Fort William/ICT situation this year.

How do some Spanish clubs get around the issue of B teams being a mix of journeyman pros & youths to keep them competitive? They have C teams as well.

Yes, in The Netherlands rules are a bit stricter as well now. At Excelsior we still have a fair amount of players with a Feyenoord background. We're geographically very close so we tend to try to hoover up Feyenoord (youth) rejects who could make us stronger. A lot of players like to just go down the road rather than to another club in a different part of the country for example. But now it's all our own choice and we can get players from elsewhere, we had 3 loanees from Ajax in recent years as well for example.

I can't tell you about Spain as I'm not aware how it works there unfortunately.

[Marten]

11 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That's far from being universally accepted on here, so I disagree with that assessment. I can accept the argument that something that is nothing more than a reserve team belongs nowhere near the lower tiers of the pyramid.

However, if Edusport was OK for licensing and tier 5, having any fully professional club being able to set up a new free standing satellite club for long term player development with its own ground and subject to the same rules on transfers and loans as any other club in their division is not something to dismiss out of hand simply because a lot of people in Scottish society nowadays pure hate the Raingurs and the mere sight of a Union Flag.

You get certain social misfits on here that will wander from thread to thread trolling certain posters that they have pigeonholed as being the enemy over brain dead flag waving identity politics. It would be nice to think that club representatives at SPFL meetings are above that sort of thing but in the age of the internet pressure can be brought to bear forcing clubs to take irrational postures in that context as well.

Kelty and Brora's shot at SPFL entry next season will probably be over tomorrow because the logical 14-10-10-10 solution on how to deal with the fallout from the pandemic won't suit small minded bitter fans that are desperate to see Hearts relegated or ICT stay in the Championship etc and certain clubs will have to cave into pressure on that.

It's no surprise there is a lot of OF hatred on here. I've only been in Scotland for 3 years. I've done "the 42" and safe to say that both OF clubs are the bottom 2 of my list of SPFL clubs I'd be happy to go back to. Also outside of games I've experienced sectarian behaviour from both of the ugly sisters on separate occasions, last time with Celtic fans on a train. So even just based on my relatively short time in Scotland they can both get in the fucking sea, I can only image how it is for people who experienced this shite all their lives.

But the OF clubs want colt teams only for their own interest, push them straight into the SPFL and don't care about smaller clubs. That's completely different from Caledonian Braves entering a team in a SOS league struggling for numbers. Both the WOS & EOS don't allow colt teams (Stirling Uni EOS are just a quirk of history, it's very unlikely the EOS will allow any more). The clubs you mentioned: BSC, Caledonian Braves, Rossvale, Gartcairn, St Cadoc's and Bonnyton, are all independent clubs who started off to give youth players a chance to step up, that's a completely different issue. Those clubs played by ther rules and have every right to be where they are.

Edited June 14, 2020 by Marten

[classof2010]

Except in this country what is being proposed is grossly unfair. Why should two clubs get straight into the senior leagues? If any club wants a colt team then they can apply for a place at the bottom of the pyramid. This current suggestion can get in the bin

Do you honestly think Real Madrid b and Barca b started at the bottom of the Spanish leagues madrid started in tier 4 where and Barca started in tier 3 both have been relegated as low as tier 5. So for Celtic and rangers colts to come I’m as tier 3 which would of been the lowest spfl league at the time for me would be acceptable

[FairWeatherFan]

6 hours ago, classof2010 said:

Do you honestly think Real Madrid b and Barca b started at the bottom of the Spanish leagues madrid started in tier 4 where and Barca started in tier 3 both have been relegated as low as tier 5. So for Celtic and rangers colts to come I’m as tier 3 which would of been the lowest spfl league at the time for me would be acceptable

The history of Real Madrid Castilla and Barcelona B are a bit more complicated than that. Both Real Madrid and Barcelona developed relationships with existing clubs. They weren't just plopped in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_Madrid_Castilla

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Barcelona_B

[Andy groundhopper]

Main argument against the Colts is - what happens IF they win the divisions, no way will you have them in the SPL - so give it a rest. European youth lge, various Scottish Cups and the Reserve Lge. How much more do you want ?

[LongTimeLurker]

8 hours ago, Marten said:

It's no surprise there is a lot of OF hatred on here. I've only been in Scotland for 3 years. I've done "the 42" and safe to say that both OF clubs are the bottom 2 of my list of SPFL clubs I'd be happy to go back to. Also outside of games I've experienced sectarian behaviour from both of the ugly sisters on separate occasions, last time with Celtic fans on a train. So even just based on my relatively short time in Scotland they can both get in the fucking sea, I can only image how it is for people who experienced this shite all their lives....

Meanwhile as I have pointed out the club that is closest to actually getting a PGB league to accept a colt team is Inverness Caledonian Thistle precisely because there aren't huge numbers of people in Scottish society that have a visceral level hatred of them so the issues involved can be dealt with rationally. It would be better if Rangers took a back seat on this issue as there is zero chance of lower tier SPFL clubs ignoring the FTOF backlash they generate when they propose something like this.

In reality it is not just the OF that would like to have colt teams operating at PGB level. The merits of the proposal from a player development standpoint need to be examined carefully for the overall health of the Scottish game because there is a widespread belief that the full time clubs' U-20 setups aren't working as intended, that reserve team games don't provide enough of a competitive edge, and that loaning young players out to be coached by another club is not ideal. 

A big part of the attraction of licensing for smaller pyramid clubs beyond the possibility of PGB league entry is the annual subsidy money they can expect to receive that is attracted into the SFA primarily by the fully professional level of the game and by the popularity of a tiny handful of clubs that generate most of the armchair fan and spectator interest in the game. Putting up with a few colt teams operating independently from the mother ship at entry level licensing standards doesn't seem to me to be an unreasonable request when that financial largesse is being provided and clubs like Irvine Meadow, East Kilbride, Auchinleck Talbot and BSC Glasgow have been regularly  hitting the jackpot financially with Scottish Cup runs.

Edited June 14, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Marten]

24 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Meanwhile as I have pointed out the club that is closest to actually getting a PGB league to accept a colt team is Inverness Caledonian Thistle precisely because there aren't huge numbers of people in Scottish society that have a visceral level hatred of them so the issues involved can be dealt with rationally. It would be better if Rangers took a back seat on this issue as there is zero chance of lower tier SPFL clubs ignoring the FTOF backlash they generate when they propose something like this.

In reality it is not just the OF that would like to have colt teams operating at PGB level. The merits of the proposal from a player development standpoint need to be examined carefully for the overall health of the Scottish game because there is a widespread belief that the full time clubs' U-20 setups aren't working as intended, that reserve team games don't provide enough of a competitive edge, and that loaning young players out to be coached by another club is not ideal. 

A big part of the attraction of licensing for smaller pyramid clubs beyond the possibility of PGB league entry is the annual subsidy money they can expect to receive that is attracted into the SFA primarily by the fully professional level of the game and by the popularity of a tiny handful of clubs that generate most of the armchair fan and spectator interest in the game. Putting up with a few colt teams operating independently from the mother ship at entry level licensing standards doesn't seem to me to be an unreasonable request when that financial largesse is being provided and clubs like Irvine Meadow, East Kilbride, Auchinleck Talbot and BSC Glasgow have been regularly  hitting the jackpot financially with Scottish Cup runs.

I'm against colt teams regardless. They don't bring any benefits to the lower leagues or to youth development, quite the opposite, they'll have a detrimental effect to the lower leagues. So yes, it is a completely unreasonable request.

I'm also against ICT in the HL for the same reason. However, at least they plan to start in the lowest level of the pyramid in their area. The plan from the ugly sisters is to get their teams straight into the SPFL, bypassing all the clubs that are now below the SPFL in the LL area. Plus another part of their plan is that other clubs can start on the LL, that shows a complete disregard to the leagues below the LL. If colt teams are allowed, they should start in the lowest league for their area. So Celtic & Rangers colts should start in the WOS conferences and the likes of Hearts & Hibs in the EOS conferences. Once there is a tier 8 or even 9 for that area they have to start there and not any higher. But as I said, colts just should get in the sea, it's an awful idea without any benefits.

[Hampden Diehard]

Every colt team in the SPFL is one less non-colt team in the SPFL. Colt teams exist for the parent club and only the parent club at the expense of clubs that are trying to get to that level. 

Edited June 14, 2020 by Hampden Diehard

[LongTimeLurker]

If 14-14-18 had been approved that would not have been the case. If colt teams improved player development sufficiently that the national team starts qualifying for major tournaments again, lower tier clubs would benefit from enhanced annual payments from the SFA.

[Marten]

47 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

If 14-14-18 had been approved that would not have been the case. If colt teams improved player development sufficiently that the national team starts qualifying for major tournaments again, lower tier clubs would benefit from enhanced annual payments from the SFA.

Ah, still peddling the myth this is about the national team and player development I see?

[classof2010]

Ah, still peddling the myth this is about the national team and player development I see?

You don’t like it I get it, but people are allowed opinions I like the idea lower league club attendances are not massive and I think the colts would bring bigger crowds maybe lower league clubs don’t want colt teams as they use the old firm for loan players but that’s my opinion I’d like to see them in bottom league

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, classof2010 said:

You don’t like it I get it, but people are allowed opinions I like the idea lower league club attendances are not massive and I think the colts would bring bigger crowds maybe lower league clubs don’t want colt teams as they use the old firm for loan players but that’s my opinion I’d like to see them in bottom league

The trend in basically every league that has colts/B/II/reserves is that they are amongst the weakest attendances. No different than a team that gets promoted will see a jump, or team that gets relegated losing fans.

Below are a selection of the highest level colts across Europe from the completed 2018-19 or 2019 seasons. Some of the snapshots also have the division average included as they are right at the bottom. It also shows how widespread the use of reserve clubs within a nation's pyramid. Strange how no one talks about Norway and Slovakia when it comes to reserves since they're of a similar population to Scotland.

2nd Tier in the Netherlands:

3rd Tier in Norway:

3rd Tier in Germany which is regionalised across 90 clubs:

3rd Tier in Italy 53rd out of 59:

2nd Tier in Austria:

3rd Tier in Switzerland 8th out of 16:

2nd Tier in Slovakia:

And to end on a few relative high notes of four figure attendances:

2nd Tier in Russia:

2nd Tier in Portugal 6 out of 18l:

3rd Tier in Spain 11th out of 80 in their regionalised tier:

 

 

[classof2010]

The trend in basically every league that has colts/B/II/reserves is that they are amongst the weakest attendances. No different than a team that gets promoted will see a jump, or team that gets relegated losing fans.
Below are a selection of the highest level colts across Europe from the completed 2018-19 or 2019 seasons. Some of the snapshots also have the division average included as they are right at the bottom. It also shows how widespread the use of reserve clubs within a nation's pyramid. Strange how no one talks about Norway and Slovakia when it comes to reserves since they're of a similar population to Scotland.
2nd Tier in the Netherlands:

3rd Tier in Norway:

3rd Tier in Germany which is regionalised across 90 clubs:

3rd Tier in Italy 53rd out of 59:

2nd Tier in Austria:

3rd Tier in Switzerland 8th out of 16:

2nd Tier in Slovakia:

And to end on a few relative high notes of four figure attendances:
2nd Tier in Russia:

2nd Tier in Portugal 6 out of 18l:

3rd Tier in Spain 11th out of 80 in their regionalised tier:

 
 

That’s good information I think celtic and rangers colts would bring decent crowds as I think both of them have exciting young players it would be great for national team that these boys are playing professional football I know a lot of the players aren’t Scottish but I’ve seen some very good players and not going in loan means they would be trained by there clubs i do like the loan system in Scotland but I’m all for the colts in the leagues

[Myles Offside]

6 hours ago, classof2010 said:

You don’t like it I get it, but people are allowed opinions I like the idea lower league club attendances are not massive and I think the colts would bring bigger crowds maybe lower league clubs don’t want colt teams as they use the old firm for loan players but that’s my opinion I’d like to see them in bottom league

In the bottom league is fine, if that's bottom league of the pyramid for the appropriate area, ie in the OF case, WOS conferences. Not if it's bottom league of the SPFL which means they are jumping the queue ahead of other teams who have more right to be there.

[LongTimeLurker]

9 hours ago, Marten said:

Ah, still peddling the myth this is about the national team and player development I see?

It's not a myth. Scotland hasn't qualified for a major tournament since 1998. There is a problem with our player development system that needs to be fixed.

[Marten]

53 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It's not a myth. Scotland hasn't qualified for a major tournament since 1998. There is a problem with our player development system that needs to be fixed.

There is a problem, but colt teams would do nothing to fix that problem. It's youth coaching & training structures, especially at younger ages and the fragmented organisation of youth football as a whole that should be the first priority.

Colt teams are just proposed to serve the OF's interests. They won't address the problem on player development and won't help the lower leagues (quite the opposite). 

[paul wright scores]

3 minutes ago, Marten said:

Colt teams are just proposed to serve the OF's interests. They won't address the problem on player development and won't help the lower leagues (quite the opposite). 

100% correct.  Hopefully this idiotic idea will never come to fruition. 

 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

9 hours ago, classof2010 said:

That’s good information I think celtic and rangers colts would bring decent crowds 

There is absolutely f**k all evidence for this happening in Scotland.

Why are the trying to bribe clubs by "guaranteeing to buy away tickets"? Why not just rely on these "decent" (i misnomer if ever there was one) crowds they will bring?

As Mr Kats is stating, there are far bigger problems with grass roots football structure and the funding associated with it.  The OF u18s will do f**k all to solve that. 

[FairWeatherFan]

4 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Why are the trying to bribe clubs by "guaranteeing to buy away tickets"? Why not just rely on these "decent" (i misnomer if ever there was one) crowds they will bring?

That is one of the great contradictions with this. People say "They'll bring in great crowds". Then the clubs themselves say "We'll guarantee x number of tickets bought".