Colts Teams

[LongTimeLurker]

^^^non-sequitur, I wrote long term tenure and there needs to be flexibility for the Clyde scenario for a reason.

[Marten]

3 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Supports the third biggest team in Rotterdam, moves to Dundee and supports the third biggest team. Guess it all makes sense. 

Think people need to look beyond a petty FTOF angle on this issue and ponder whether having some colt teams around is really so very different from having BSC, Caledonian Braves, Rossvale, Gartcairn, St Cadoc's and Bonnyton around?

Was the bigger issue with Feyenoord and Excelsior not that Feyenoord turned Excelsior into their B team in all but name at one point? Hijacking other clubs is something that should be avoided.

1. In Rotterdam I support the team from the part of the city that I am from and here I support my local team as well, simple as that.

2. Those clubs have every right to be where they are so it's pointless to include them in your argument.

3. Save to say that many Excelsior fans, myself included, weren't exactly keen on being taken over by Feyenoord and we weren't sad when it ended. But that can be stopped by putting up rules against it (i.e. maximum of players on loan, rules that clubs can't have the same owner or decision makers etc.). Is it worse than colt teams though? No, because as much as I hated the Excelsior/Feyenoord arrangement, it was only a temporary thing that ended around 2 years later as it wasn't what Feyenoord wanted, rather than ruining the lower leagues with loads of colt teams.

Another issue with colt teams in The Netherlands (and also in countries like Germany) is that because they need a full squad, they end up signing players for those teams who have no chance to reach the first team but just make up the numbers in the team. Such players would normally  be playing for normal lower league clubs, making it harder for them to get players.

Edited June 13, 2020 by Marten

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Marten said:

But that can be stopped by putting up rules against it (i.e. maximum of players on loan, rules that clubs can't have the same owner or decision makers etc.). Is it worse than colt teams though?

Which is something that has already happened in the Highland League following the Fort William/ICT situation this year.

2 minutes ago, Marten said:

Another issue with colt teams in The Netherlands (and also in countries like Germany) is that because they need a full squad, they end up signing players for those teams who have no chance to reach the first team but just make up the numbers in the team. Such players would normally  be playing for normal lower league clubs, making it harder for them to get players.

How do some Spanish clubs get around the issue of B teams being a mix of journeyman pros & youths to keep them competitive? They have C teams as well.

[LongTimeLurker]

28 minutes ago, Marten said:

...2. Those clubs have every right to be where they are so it's pointless to include them in your argument....

That's far from being universally accepted on here, so I disagree with that assessment. I can accept the argument that something that is nothing more than a reserve team belongs nowhere near the lower tiers of the pyramid.

However, if Edusport was OK for licensing and tier 5, having any fully professional club being able to set up a new free standing satellite club for long term player development with its own ground and subject to the same rules on transfers and loans as any other club in their division is not something to dismiss out of hand simply because a lot of people in Scottish society nowadays pure hate the Raingurs and the mere sight of a Union Flag.

You get certain social misfits on here that will wander from thread to thread trolling certain posters that they have pigeonholed as being the enemy over brain dead flag waving identity politics. It would be nice to think that club representatives at SPFL meetings are above that sort of thing but in the age of the internet pressure can be brought to bear forcing clubs to take irrational postures in that context as well.

Kelty and Brora's shot at SPFL entry next season will probably be over tomorrow because the logical 14-10-10-10 solution on how to deal with the fallout from the pandemic won't suit small minded bitter fans that are desperate to see Hearts relegated or ICT stay in the Championship etc and certain clubs will have to cave into pressure on that.

[parsforlife]

57 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

That's far from being universally accepted on here, so I disagree with that assessment. I can accept the argument that something that is nothing more than a reserve team belongs nowhere near the lower tiers of the pyramid.

However, if Edusport was OK for licensing and tier 5, having any fully professional club being able to set up a new free standing satellite club for long term player development with its own ground and subject to the same rules on transfers and loans as any other club in their division is not something to dismiss out of hand simply because a lot of people in Scottish society nowadays pure hate the Raingurs and the mere sight of a Union Flag.

You get certain social misfits on here that will wander from thread to thread trolling certain posters that they have pigeonholed as being the enemy over brain dead flag waving identity politics. It would be nice to think that club representatives at SPFL meetings are above that sort of thing but in the age of the internet pressure can be brought to bear forcing clubs to take irrational postures in that context as well.

Kelty and Brora's shot at SPFL entry next season will probably be over tomorrow because the logical 14-10-10-10 solution on how to deal with the fallout from the pandemic won't suit small minded bitter fans that are desperate to see Hearts relegated or ICT stay in the Championship etc and certain clubs will have to cave into pressure on that.

You have absolutely lost it again.  

B teams are shite. They are just about the worst idea that gets brought up and we’ve had some utterly mad proposals.  People don’t like the OF(and that’s both sides not just your big team) but even regardless it’s utterly shite.  There is general unhappiness about Stirling uni’s attitude to their EoS side, the HL dismissed the ICT colts without hesitation and have quickly slammed the door on their fort William take over.  This isn’t just anti-OF thing. In fact their would probably be less anger about something like giving the top 2 sides in the premiership getting a even higher percentage of prize money than their is against B teams.

The pandemic caused the season to be finished early and has caused complications in getting next season started(being delayed/ behind closed doors, testing players etc) it hasn’t meant that we can’t relegate clubs, and certainly hasn’t meant we need to reconstruct the league structure that has worked well for clubs generally for years(and especially since the changes that happened when spfl was formed) just because a couple of teams can’t seem to handle the fact if your utterly dreadful most of the season then relegation is something your very likely to deal with,  it’s something clubs have dealt with for a century and the can deal with it now.

 

 

[LongTimeLurker]

5 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

...the HL dismissed the ICT colts without hesitation ...

Now you are making stuff up. They left the door open to the possibility and this was the latest in the Evening Express:

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/sport/football/highland-league/secretary-open-to-b-teams/

[glensmad]

Kelty and brora are going nowhere the so called pyramid has taken another kick when its already down on it knees. 
I've maintained all along the so called pyramid had a very difficult time pre pandemic to become credible now post pandemic it will only become impossible .
A horrible blow to those who blindly follow the pyramid train and the bandwagon jumpers. 
This will not end well at all with those in charge and the clubs in the spfl who will make Johnson and co and the junior grade seem like the model of integrity and competence. 

[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[Andy groundhopper]

2 hours ago, NCAC said:

Kelty and brora are going nowhere the so called pyramid has taken another kick when its already down on it knees. 

I've maintained all along the so called pyramid had a very difficult time pre pandemic to become credible now post pandemic it will only become impossible .

A horrible blow to those who blindly follow the pyramid train and the bandwagon jumpers. 

This will not end well at all with those in charge and the clubs in the spfl who will make Johnson and co and the junior grade seem like the model of integrity and competence. 

That's it then,stuff the lot of em and bring back the progressive ambitious Juniors, that's what we really all want. No one really wants to join the crumbling pyramid and move forward, they were all bullied by the Mob   Let's go back and pay 6s to get in, and watch everything in black & white. 

[glensmad]

That's it then,stuff the lot of em and bring back the progressive ambitious Juniors, that's what we really all want. [emoji84] No one really wants to join the crumbling pyramid and move forward, they were all bullied by the Mob [emoji379]  Let's go back and pay 6s to get in, and watch everything in black & white. 

Hey, there's nothing wrong with black and white. [emoji469]

[Ped]

Hasn't the lowland league already stated there will be no colts teams in it so were would they get relegated too LTL seems to try and start an argument on a certain post before contradicting himself then starts to agree with it

[LongTimeLurker]

^^^farcical stuff given I was posting about the Highland League's posture rather than the Lowland League's and used an Evening Express article from 5 days ago to back up what I was stating. 

[FairWeatherFan]

21 minutes ago, Ped said:

Hasn't the lowland league already stated there will be no colts teams in it so were would they get relegated too LTL seems to try and start an argument on a certain post before contradicting himself then starts to agree with it

The Lowland League currently has a rule that prevents a team from entering if the club already has a team within the leagues covered by the Professional Game Board. Just because the rule exists now, doesn't mean it could be changed in future. A bit like how the HL/LL boundary is meant to be discussed at the LL AGM.

What you will find is that the HL and LL are likely to be openly pragmatic on the topic of colt teams. There's the potential for a trade off that would be seen as more beneficial than the cost of colts. Such as accepting Colts and gaining automatic promotion as an example.

When it came to the ICT colts in the Highland League last year. It wasn't meant to be a close thing. I believe it never even went to a vote due to the issues with it. In the media you had the HL President say the likes of the following:

Quote

Cardno said there were "a few issues" with that plan.

"What would happen if they had an incredibly successful youth team, and were up for promotion?" he asked. "There were a few things we didn't want to make a decision on quickly and it was ruled out."

The thing to remember about the Highland League is that it's not a league body with a singlular way of thinking. When you look back at the so called 'Stables Plan' that would of split then 18 clubs into 2x10 Divisions the vote went 10-8 against the proposal.

That's certainly something the Highland League reps are very mindful of at the moment. Right now you've got those trying to get into the SPFL and those not likely bothered by it. With the league down to 17 its entirely possible the dividing lines are actually more strongly in favour of those opposed to change having lost Cove Rangers.

Brora's chairm:

Quote

“Aberdeen, Caley Thistle and Ross County could perhaps take advantage of the Rangers and Celtic lead,” Powrie said.

“I think they could bring something to the Highland League, I really do. That’s only my opinion though, generally opinion is polarised.

Rod Houston HL Secretary:

Quote

they were open-minded on all this. I don’t think people will recoil as quickly as they once did at the thought of Colts teams.

“The league will need to find a consensus, it will provide a lot of mixed emotions, but it’s something that would find favour with us.

 

[Andy groundhopper]

53 minutes ago, glensmad said:

Hey, there's nothing wrong with black and white.

Quite right, I turn the colour off on my TV in a bid to get a cheaper licence. Can't imagine watching Bilko or the Marx Bros in colour ! I know they think it's for everyone's benefit, imagine Reserve teams in the English Leagues, oh the uproar !

[rockson]

9 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Imagine Reserve teams in the English Leagues, oh the uproar !

English League 1 and League 2 team supporters are just as opposed to Colt teams in the EFL as fans of lower league SPFL sides (and others) are up here..

[Andy groundhopper]

10 minutes ago, rockson said:

English League 1 and League 2 team supporters are just as opposed to Colt teams in the EFL as fans of lower league SPFL sides (and others) are up here..

Agree,we see the lack of interest with the Premier babies playing in the Caribou Cup. If the young bucks want to play in the league, get out on loan and grow up quick ! 

[crfc]

Agree,we see the lack of interest with the Premier babies playing in the Caribou Cup. If the young bucks want to play in the league, get out on loan and grow up quick ! 

The main reason senior clubs want colts playing in a competitive is so clubs can keep a closer eye on the young prospects as they grow up in a league they will get tackled hard plus be coached by the clubs own staff not a low grade coaching team that just see then as players the club dobt have to pay for .

[LongTimeLurker]

It was OK to have a bunch of French kids paying to play in our tier 5 through the weird Edusport setup and to still have Uni teams on board at that level with zero supporters but naw we cannae have colt teams that would help our best future fully pro level prospects develop because that would really mess things up in credibility terms. 

[parsforlife]

5 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It was OK to have a bunch of French kids paying to play in our tier 5 through the weird Edusport setup and to still have Uni teams on board at that level with zero supporters but naw we cannae have colt teams that would help our best future fully pro level prospects develop because that would really mess things up in credibility terms. 

The objection to B teams goes far beyond 'you've got no fans' .

The Edu/caladonia braves project isn't one i'm a particular fan of, but i can't think of anything you can pin down as something they are doing wrong that nobody else does, you can't legislate against them just because you don't like them. B teams you can, so you should.

Any annoyance at uni sides is utterly laughable.  Some of the most historic clubs in the game that do a great job at giving players a place to develop when they have found the end of the path of pro-youth. Your annoyance is purely based on how many people watch them, an utterly mental way to attack clubs.

[Junior Pub League]

If you have to resort to crowd wanking you've already lost the debate.

[FairWeatherFan]

32 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It was OK to have a bunch of French kids paying to play in our tier 5 through the weird Edusport setup and to still have Uni teams on board at that level with zero supporters but naw we cannae have colt teams that would help our best future fully pro level prospects develop because that would really mess things up in credibility terms. 

Edusport Academy is actually a good example of how to try to introduce colt teams, if the SPFL clubs were actually bothered to try. Edusport Academy were rejected by the Lowland League three times. They weren't wanted. The first rejection in summer 2014 saw the join the SoSFL, the next 2 rejections came along in 2015 and 2016. They had to win promotion in the 2016-17 to get into the Lowland League.

Rangers and Celtic have spent the past couple of years floating SPFL3, the 12 team SPFL trial, and most recently the 14-14-18 to get into the SPFL to no avail. If they had just tried applying at the lowest point in the pyramid, it could have been Rangers/Celtic colts winning the SoSFL in 2018-19. Instead it was Stranraer and nobody cares enough about them to open up discussion about colts higher up the pyramid.