George Floyd/Black Lives Matter Protests

[effeffsee_the2nd]

39 minutes ago, hk blues said:

Where to begin with all that?  You have made some huge assumptions which are completely wrong - nothing in my 2 posts suggest anything like you are trying to.   

Calm yourself down.

Sorry I should have said I'm not talking about you specifically

[hk blues]

1 minute ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

Sorry I should have said I'm not talking about you specifically

Fair do's - no worries.

[WhiteRoseKillie]

1 hour ago, Mr Waldo said:

I wish you were right but

• it's on page 2 of BLM UKs   statement -  'We're guided by a commitment to dismantle ......capitalism'
• BLM in the USA was founded by 'trained marxists'.  
• The Movement 4 Black Lives have it in their final paragraph.

The proof  is there.

How exactly does one "train a Marxist", then?

Any time you want to edit your post to replace "......" with actual words, just let us know - otherwise people might jump to the conclusion that the ommited words would weaken your argument, and that would never do, would it?

[D.A.F.C]

I'm genuinely worried now. Watching and posting multiple videos by some outrider of the Intellectual Dark Web about how structural racism isn't real is pretty much the clearest indicator that someone is being radicalised by the right. Not trolling, you are down the rabbit hole. 

They seem like pretty well reasoned presentations with facts and figures.
I'm not taking any side and have already said that there's endemic institutional racism within the police.
I feel that what's scary is that any presentation of actual factual evidence is shut down instantly and then labelled as extreme right wing or racist.
I realise that its easy to go down a rabbit hole and have seen all the vile rubbish but this doesn't seem like it. How is this not thought out and reasoned factual presentation?
I might not agree with it 100% but most of it is backed up with evidence that perhaps in the uk what we are presented as fact isn't actually totally correct and worth looking at. As he said not one person on question time has thought to scrutinise anything and lammy himself couldn't really find endemic racism from his own report yet told people to go and protest during a pandemic.
It seems that blm and protests are the only way to go and any narrative questioning that is shut down immediately and labelled as far right nonsense.
No real point in continuing discussion if people are going to act like this.
Hopefully things get better for everyone.

[Savage Henry]

15 hours ago, D.A.F.C said:

https://www.influencewatch.org/movement/black-lives-matter/

 

Quite a few people have questioned their origins and funding structure as marxist in nature and possibly have their own agenda, using blm and protesters as a bit of a front for disruption and political gain.

I'd hope that its not true and it could be a right wing response to try and undermine them.

Their leadership team do describe themselves as trained Marxists and that they want to destroy the nuclear family.

I suppose you get all sorts in a movement and I don't suggest any great conspiracy but its good to look at these things before blindly following them into protest.

If they bring about real change then its all good, im not against anything they're saying. Just a little sceptical having read some things online. Its hard to know what's exactly legit and what's fake now with social media, everyone has their own agenda.

 

Don't take offence, I just like to question lots of things people take for granted. I regret the comments earlier in the thread but I do have slightly different ideas on how to help end racism than whats gone on over the last few decades.

 

That’s the most disingenuous thing you’ve posted.  You aren’t in any sort of position to question the structural racism that people of colour “take for granted”.  And ultimately, that’s all that BLM is - a means of overcoming that structural inequality which exists whether you or I recognise it or not.  And, to that end, our “ideas on how to help end racism” is not worth a single iota.

 

[D.A.F.C]

Because if you watch one of these gateway drug I'm-just-asking-questions videos The Algorithm[emoji769] will detect this and start pushing Ben Shapiro videos at you and you ignore them but they're there in your recommendations day in day out so just the once you click on one then a month later you're in a Fred Perry shirt wondering why none of your family will talk to you.

I realise all of that and I'm quite aware of how toxic the social media algorithms can be.
Don't worry I'm not a mad racist m90.

Most of my YouTube is still cat videos.

[D.A.F.C]

That’s the most disingenuous thing you’ve posted.  You aren’t in any sort of position to question the structural racism that people of colour “take for granted”.  And ultimately, that’s all that BLM is - a means of overcoming that structural inequality which exists whether you or I recognise it or not.  And, to that end, our “ideas on how to help end racism” is not worth a single iota.
 

I'm not in any position to ask questions?
Are you saying this because I'm white and from Scotland?

Where do you draw the line that you've created? Should any white person be able to discuss this? Guess not, let's close down the thread then.

[Mr Waldo]

8 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said:

How exactly does one "train a Marxist", then?

Any time you want to edit your post to replace "......" with actual words, just let us know - otherwise people might jump to the conclusion that the ommited words would weaken your argument, and that would never do, would it?

I don't know how to be trained to be a marxist.  Why on earth would I be interested in that? You'll need to ask Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of Black Lives Matter in the USA.  I was quoting her.

The word I missed out was 'impererialism'.  I added '.....' to show an omission. If I was attempting to be deceptive, I would just have omitted wouldn't I?  I was simply claryfiyng a rather rambling statement.   

[D.A.F.C]

The worst thing that can happen on youtube is you follow someone who I dunno grows their own vegetables or something else similarly innocuous and then they get red pilled and you have to stop watching them.

Yeah I've unsubscribed from the beechgroove garden after they started growing cucumbers that looked like hitler.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

10 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

They seem like pretty well reasoned presentations with facts and figures.
I'm not taking any side and have already said that there's endemic institutional racism within the police.
I feel that what's scary is that any presentation of actual factual evidence is shut down instantly and then labelled as extreme right wing or racist.
I realise that its easy to go down a rabbit hole and have seen all the vile rubbish but this doesn't seem like it. How is this not thought out and reasoned factual presentation?
I might not agree with it 100% but most of it is backed up with evidence that perhaps in the uk what we are presented as fact isn't actually totally correct and worth looking at. As he said not one person on question time has thought to scrutinise anything and lammy himself couldn't really find endemic racism from his own report yet told people to go and protest during a pandemic.
It seems that blm and protests are the only way to go and any narrative questioning that is shut down immediately and labelled as far right nonsense.
No real point in continuing discussion if people are going to act like this.
Hopefully things get better for everyone.

Woe is you eh? There's a surprise. Sorry but "does structural racism exist?" is very much something we can file in the "debate has been had" folder, alongside is it good to punch Nazis and are hearts going down. Youre just using it as an excuse to get angry at people for protesting.

[NotThePars]

2 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

I don't know how to be trained to be a marxist.  Why on earth would I be interested in that? You'll need to ask Patrisse Cullors, co-founder of Black Lives Matter in the USA.  I was quoting her.

The word I missed out was 'impererialism'.  I added '.....' to show an omission. If I was attempting to be deceptive, I would just have omitted wouldn't I?  I was simply claryfiyng a rather rambling statement.   

So the problem is that BLM UK have identified the sources of their oppression and then subscribed to the ideology that most explicitly challenges those problems?

[hk blues]

9 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

That’s the most disingenuous thing you’ve posted.  You aren’t in any sort of position to question the structural racism that people of colour “take for granted”.  And ultimately, that’s all that BLM is - a means of overcoming that structural inequality which exists whether you or I recognise it or not.  And, to that end, our “ideas on how to help end racism” is not worth a single iota.

 

I get your drift but if white people are part of the problem (and we are) then surely we have to be part of the solution (excuse the piss poor business speak but it fits) ?

[D.A.F.C]

I get your drift but if white people are part of the problem (and we are) then surely we have to be part of the solution (excuse the piss poor business speak but it fits) ?

Someone gets it.

Also I'm not mad at anything.

[Mr Waldo]

5 minutes ago, NotThePars said:

So the problem is that BLM UK have identified the sources of their oppression and then subscribed to the ideology that most explicitly challenges those problems?

I never said it was a problem, I only said, one of their solutions is to dismantle capitalism. A fact disputed by many.

And it is a similar story with other BLM chapters, not just BLM UK.

[Bairnardo]

Its class when something like a "mission statement" comes to light and folk immediately take up a position of defending capitalism, not because they are racists looking to discredit BLM, but because Capitalism is great, they have always supported capitalism cos their grandad did etc.

[D.A.F.C]

I never said it was a problem, I only said, one of their solutions is to dismantle capitalism. A fact disputed by many.
And it is a similar story with other BLM chapters, not just BLM UK.

No point in continuing tbh, racism is such a horrible thing that decent people are getting swept up in all of this and backing blm and activists regardless of any counter arguements or evidence that questions is this really the best way.
Even slightly conservative (not tory) black people are getting called traitors or haters for asking decent questions. I guess they're mad racists down a rabbit hole as well.
Leave them to it, im out. This isnt doing any good.

[NotThePars]

13 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

I never said it was a problem, I only said, one of their solutions is to dismantle capitalism. A fact disputed by many.

And it is a similar story with other BLM chapters, not just BLM UK.

Fair enough. I imagine there's a lot of people attached to the movement that don't want to go as far as dismantling capitalism. It's also pretty tedious to see people like D.A.F.C clutching their pearls at the thought of political activists having a) political ideologies and b) doing political activism.

[D.A.F.C]

I've never said that people can't protest just questioned why they are and what exactly they want to achieve without clear set out goals and measurable progress.
The world would be a terrible place without activism but usually there's a set goal or target rather than just stating you want to destroy things. Its divisive and will make things worse.
Really don't want to say any more so please stop quoting me and putting words into mouth that I didn't say and I won't keep coming back trying to defend myself against all sorts of nonsense and throwing stones.
Have a think about things before wildly throwing labels and accusations around.

[Gordon EF]

42 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

That’s the most disingenuous thing you’ve posted.  You aren’t in any sort of position to question the structural racism that people of colour “take for granted”.  And ultimately, that’s all that BLM is - a means of overcoming that structural inequality which exists whether you or I recognise it or not.  And, to that end, our “ideas on how to help end racism” is not worth a single iota.

 

Genuinely not meaning to have a personal go at you but I find this kind of stuff to be one of the most aggressively stupid viewpoints floating about on the left.

Of course it's fairly obvious that, for example, black people are going to have a better understanding of what racism is and the effect it has than the average white person but the idea that you should or even can just leave your critical faculties at the door if you're from group x,y,z is ridiculous.

[The Moonster]

5 minutes ago, D.A.F.C said:

I've never said that people can't protest just questioned why they are and what exactly they want to achieve without clear set out goals and measurable progress.

I think the fact you (and others) question the motives of an "end racism" campaign shows up quite well the problems we have with societal racism tbh. Their goals seem fairly straightforward to me. Do other forms of protest recieve the same scrutiny of their motives?