Geopolitics in the 2020s.

[The_Kincardine]

15 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Iraq was probably the single biggest motivating factor in flipping me from unionist to nationalist.

Because, of course, a Scottish PM, supported by a Scottish Defence Secretary and funded by a Scottish chancellor leading us in to an utterly stupid war is the very thing to give one faith in Scotland's ability to do politics better.

Edit:  With the Scot, Charlie Faulkner, providing the legal basis for the whole farago, of course.

Edited October 7, 2020 by The_Kincardine

[The_Kincardine]

1 minute ago, MixuFruit said:

Not 100% sure what you're saying here.

Why would a dreadful war - proponed by Scots and given legal credence by a Scot - make you want to put all your political eggs in to the Scottish basket?  It makes no sense.

[Dan Steele]

10 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Because, of course, a Scottish PM, supported by a Scottish Defence Secretary and funded by a Scottish chancellor leading us in to an utterly stupid war is the very thing to give one faith in Scotland's ability to do politics better.

Edit:  With the Scot, Charlie Faulkner, providing the legal basis for the whole farago, of course.

Well, that's the Union speaking about the Iraq war. Now, what was the SNP saying at Holyrood 

SNP leader John Swinney told MSPs: "The US and UK governments are pursuing an inevitable path to war and I believe it is our duty to steer this government away from this inappropriate approach

"Threatening to take unilateral action does not uphold the UN's authority, it helps to destroy it and we as a parliament should have none of it."

The SNP is insisting that no military action should take place unless the UN inspectors find real evidence of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons in Iraq and unless there is a fresh UN mandate for war.

 

 

[lichtgilphead]

9 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Because, of course, a Scottish PM, supported by a Scottish Defence Secretary and funded by a Scottish chancellor leading us in to an utterly stupid war is the very thing to give one faith in Scotland's ability to do politics better.

Edit:  With the Scot, Charlie Faulkner, providing the legal basis for the whole farago, of course.

Do you really think that any of these four would self-identify as "Scottish, not British" or "More Scottish than British"

Would it not be more accurate to state "a British PM, supported by a BritishDefence Secretary and funded by a British chancellor ... ...With the Brit, Charlie Faulkner".

[SANTAN]

28 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Iraq was probably the single biggest motivating factor in flipping me from unionist to nationalist.

How so if you don't mind me asking? 

I grew up in a Labour family and naturally liked Blair but didn't really know why, I remember at the time knowing or at least thinking the Iraq war wasn't over the WOMD rather oil etc but didn't quite understand how dysfunctional and uncoordinated it all was. 

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

Well, that's the Union speaking about the Iraq war. Now, what was the SNP saying at Holyrood 

SNP leader John Swinney told MSPs: "The US and UK governments are pursuing an inevitable path to war and I believe it is our duty to steer this government away from this inappropriate approach

"Threatening to take unilateral action does not uphold the UN's authority, it helps to destroy it and we as a parliament should have none of it."

The SNP is insisting that no military action should take place unless the UN inspectors find real evidence of chemical, biological or nuclear weapons in Iraq and unless there is a fresh UN mandate for war.

Swinney was, of course, right but that shows the idiocy of regarding Scotland as a political homogeneity.

[SANTAN]

Still though, has anyone seen the tv show I mentioned? 

[The_Kincardine]

4 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Well can you explain in a bit more detail why you think them being Scottish mattered in deciding whether the UK did or did not go to war in Iraq?

You're statement was that Iraq made you put your trust more in politicians in Scotland yet Scottish politicians gave us the Iraq war.  This makes no sense.

[The_Kincardine]

13 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Do you really think that any of these four would self-identify as "Scottish, not British" or "More Scottish than British"

Would it not be more accurate to state "a British PM, supported by a BritishDefence Secretary and funded by a British chancellor ... ...With the Brit, Charlie Faulkner".

I know that, after grievance, identity matters most for you Natters.  The true truth is that the Iraq war, pathetic and unnecessary as it was, came about by the work of Scottish politicians and was underwritten by a Scottish lawyer.

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said:

I know that, after grievance, identity matters most for you Natters.  The true truth is that the Iraq war, pathetic and unnecessary as it was, came about by the work of Scottish politicians and was underwritten by a Scottish lawyer.

I thought they were proud to be British? Like how your pride in being British manifests in xenophobia, intolerance, and sucking up to racists. 

[SANTAN]

4 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

I suppose it's hard in the age of Trump to remember how thoroughly awful and unsuitable to the presidency George W Bush was. The outrageous bellicosity towards Iraq led to quite smart people thinking Saddam Hussein had been deeply involved in the September 11th attacks etc. It was all such obvious nonsense and the memory and images of Iraqi children starving to death or dying of totally preventable illnesses due to western sanctions were only about 5 years old at this time.

You had brave and principled people like Mo Mowlam and Robin Cook saying as much on TV, Germany's foreign minister losing his mind at Rumsfeld at the UN in exasperation and it felt very much like the departure of one world order and its replacement with something meaner led by incurious people prepared to spread human misery on a scale that eclipses anything Trump has done. The people calling it out as the obvious horseshit it was were what Rumsfeld called "old Europe" and I suppose ever since then I've viewed these countries and the people they elect as holding the torch for a more educated, moderate and unaggressive world view. 

I reasoned that the only way I could live in a country that didn't saddle up with ghouls like Cheney, Petraeus, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, Rice etc was to be in a position where it wasn't an option. That meant a whole new country where we could constitute it such that our armed forces were for defending us or our allies, not for expeditionary nonsense. From then it's just been a further exploration of what other things I can envisage being done differently along the lines of being like Finland or whatever, further reinforced by travelling and meeting people from these countries. 

Fair play, great response that I'm too drunk to reply in a way that would do your post justice. Have you watched the documentary that I mentioned? It doesn't really go into British political response more the on the ground reactions, fantastic yet at times despairing viewing. 

[lichtgilphead]

3 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I know that...  identity matters... most for you Natters.  

Yep, like Pavlov's dogs, Kincy provides his usual predictable response, even though he brought up the subject of their nationality in the first place.

Good boy, Kincy. Good boy!

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Kincy's determination to pin everything bad on the Jocks is like the old Andy Murray 'British when he wins, Scottish when he loses' trope.

[The_Kincardine]

4 minutes ago, lichtgilphead said:

Yep, like Pavlov's dogs, Kincy provides his usual predictable response, even though he brought up the subject of their nationality in the first place.

Good boy, Kincy. Good boy!

When there's a mass Glengarry burning in Geo Sq and you Natters stop politicising national symbols and go on your political marches dressed like normal people then I will stop with the ethno-nationalist shite.

Until then... 

[lichtgilphead]

1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said:

When there's a mass Glengarry burning in Geo Sq and you Natters stop politicising national symbols and go on your political marches dressed like normal people then I will stop with the ethno-nationalist shite.

Until then... 

If only I owned a Glengarry to burn!

I wonder why Kincy is so fascinated by the Glengarry?

[The_Kincardine]

5 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

Last mega post on it from me the night anyway, I'm drinking whisky and getting maudlin.

We're brothers separated at birth...

[Thistle_do_nicely]

39 minutes ago, Stormzy said:

Fair play, great response that I'm too drunk to reply in a way that would do your post justice. Have you watched the documentary that I mentioned? It doesn't really go into British political response more the on the ground reactions, fantastic yet at times despairing viewing. 

haven't actually seen it but tbf you're the second person ive had recommend it so think ill give it a go, i think its on iPlayer

I might actually have to look this up on wiki or something, because I legit think I may be a bit muddled with the timeline over Iraq/Afghanistan. Would've been a fledgling surly teenager at the time in my defence... 

 I think the US/UK got involved in Afghanistan first, I was living in Kuwait in the early 2000's and can vividly mind it.

iirc I didn't have to come home straight after Sept. 11th and I can remember it was quite tense at school in the immediate aftermath (teachers were sternly telling entire classes to basically keep their mouth shut because parents may have been going the XBL route and high fiving each other over loads of people dying in the attacks, or they may have been a lot more sympathetic since the US stepped in to remove the Iraqi forces in the 1st gulf war)

I only had to leave when the Iraq conflict started I'm sure which was at least a few months after Sept. 11th? Mum and dad said it was just not worth the risk of staying - they said there was a higher risk of kidnapping etc. while we were there due to the conflict so we were better off going back home. (one of those weird things I can remember was finding out after flying home that a Chinese Silkworm missile launched from Iraq had exploded relatively close to the penthouse we lived at and had shattered all of the windows at a nearby shopping mall as well as some at our old home, was a bit of a "hoo boy yeah I can see why we got out of town" moment. edit: iirc it exploded over the Arabian gulf)

Edited October 7, 2020 by Thistle_do_nicely

[SANTAN]

31 minutes ago, MixuFruit said:

No, I might have a look but I fear it'll just make me miserable.

Oh also I remember watching a documentary about a guy visiting Iraq I suppose not long before September 11th where the regime sent minders to follow the journalists around. In this particular film, the guy decided to make the documentary about the minders. One of them had been a teacher but the work dried up as sanctions killed funding, he had been a massive football fan, in particular of Archie Gemmill but he had had to sell all his VCRs of world cups, even the panini albums off his wall to buy food. As a farewell he insisted on buying the guy and his cameraman dinner even though he had nothing. This lovely warm hearted guy full of Arabic pride, forced to work for a regime he undoubtedly despised. They arranged for Archie Gemmill to send him a video saying hello, I often wonder what happened to him. I don't imagine 2003 onwards made his already difficult life better, his already dashed hopes revived. 

It's hard to put into words what I think of our elected representatives having the power to destroy lives either the quick way with a bomb or the slow way with sanctions. What did this warm, open man ever do to me?

I think there's a big gulf in what motivates someone my age to want independence from someone 25 years younger because they don't have this experience. For all his faults Trump has been very uninterested in big showy invasions, though drone killings still go on. If anything worries me about independence it's that this might be too remote a memory for it to have much clout in how we could reshape what our foreign policy and military is for.

Last mega post on it from me the night anyway, I'm drinking whisky and getting maudlin.

 

 

 

Yeah the documentary is well worth a watch it kinda has similarities to what you said as in one of the guys it follows was a massive fan of US pop culture pre 9/11 and he learned English, had well paid work, then everything kicked off and he lost loved ones and ended up having to work with the Muricans/UK to have somewhat of a normal life even though he obviously resented the fact his country had been turned upside down. To be honest a lot of it is miserable but without going too deep it's worth watching just for the sake of hearing some of the true victims telling their story. It's easy to gloss over and forget but is always beneficial hearing what isn't pleasant to hear but what has to be said to fully understand.

 I know especially on here people are not fond of the BBC but ignoring the news coverage and stuff their documentary work is so well done, this show really focuses on the people that were their as opposed to media narratives etc. 

[NotThePars]

Fair play, great response that I'm too drunk to reply in a way that would do your post justice. Have you watched the documentary that I mentioned? It doesn't really go into British political response more the on the ground reactions, fantastic yet at times despairing viewing. 

I haven’t but I’ll check it out. One of the first books that got me back into reading after uni was Patrick Cockburn’s The Age of Jihad which is a collation for his diaries on the ground in Iraq from the 90s up til the 2010s and it’s well worth a read as the guy is a genuinely brave and impressive man. The anecdote that sticks out for me was when he was in the back of the car going through a checkpoint and the guards end up shouting back and forth with the driver before letting them through. Cockburn asks him what the issue was and the driver tells him “you’re lucky that you hold an Irish passport. If it was British we would never have seen you again.” Guy’s a madman.. He’s still travelling out there and I’m sure he was attempting to get into ISIS held areas during their big surge.

[NotThePars]

Yeah the documentary is well worth a watch it kinda has similarities to what you said as in one of the guys it follows was a massive fan of US pop culture pre 9/11 and he learned English, had well paid work, then everything kicked off and he lost loved ones and ended up having to work with the Muricans/UK to have somewhat of a normal life even though he obviously resented the fact his country had been turned upside down. To be honest a lot of it is miserable but without going too deep it's worth watching just for the sake of hearing some of the true victims telling their story. It's easy to gloss over and forget but is always beneficial hearing what isn't pleasant to hear but what has to be said to fully understand.
 I know especially on here people are not fond of the BBC but ignoring the news coverage and stuff their documentary work is so well done, this show really focuses on the people that were their as opposed to media narratives etc. 

Their documentary stuff can be class. I mean they helped Adam Curtis make Bitter Lake and HyperNormalisation.