Accent prejudice

[Guest JTS98]

6 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

I didn’t think Kirkcaldy had much of an accent until I moved away. Now when I go back for the football it’s unbearable. “Shya c**t a says tae um a widni dae that fur a hunner pound.”

I also work with a woman from Inverness who has a son called Ryan and the way she says his name makes my skin crawl. Every accent west of Shotts is fucking minging, nasally shite. The way they all have that upward tone towards the end of sentences really grinds me. And the use of “but” to finish sentences; yet to hear a valid answer to why that’s used.

It's funny the things people think they hear.

I've written essays on this and for a couple of years worked pretty extensively on features of accents. What you've identified here is not a feature of Glasgow English or of West Central Scottish accents in general. Those accents tend to follow a pattern of rise-plateau-fall. So the end of an utterance is lower than what came before.

A rise in intonation is not a necessary feature, but is more likely to be heard in accents from the east of Scotland until you get up to Fife. Fife accents tend not to do this.

Rising intonation at the end is a feature of Australian accents and certain American accents. It's becoming more prevalent in young people everywhere, probably because of American tv.

I think accents are a fascinating topic. We all have different views on them, but the psychology of it is that we essentially hear what we want to hear. People can change their views on an accent after meeting an attractive member of the opposite sex with the accent in question, for example. We basically just attach social prejudices to them.

For example, the BBC are unlikely to ever have someone present news at six with a broad Geordie accent. But there is absolutely no reason for this. It's pure cultural prejudice.

In the UK we just happen to attach cultural prestige to the RP accent. This is no reflection of the accent itself, purely on the power of those who speak it.

Edited May 24, 2020 by JTS98

[paranoid android]

2 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Thread had potential until you indicated that all Irish accents sound the same. Ffs mate. Huge spectrum ranging from aggressive to soft.
I'm out.

I could be wrong, but I think that all of the people joining the conversation from Ireland are based around Belfast - all women, and all sounding quite aggressive - probably accidentally - I now wonder whether I sound similar on the rare occasions that I reluctantly join in with my painful tones. 

[Hillonearth]

1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

It's funny the things people think they hear.

I've written essays on this and for a couple of years worked pretty extensively on features of accents. What you've identified here is not a feature of Glasgow English or of West Central Scottish accents in general. Those accents tend to follow a pattern of rise-plateau-fall. So the end of an utterance is lower than what came before.

A rise in intonation is not a necessary feature, but is more likely to be heard in accents from the east of Scotland until you get up to Fife. Fife accents tend not to do this.

Rising intonation at the end is a feature of Australian accents and certain American accents. It's becoming more prevalent in young people everywhere, probably because of American tv.

I think accents are a fascinating topic. We all have different views on them, but the psychology of it is that we essentially hear what we want to hear. People can change their views on an accent after meeting an attractive member of the opposite sex with the accent in question, for example. We basically just attach social prejudices to them.

For example, the BBC are unlikely to ever have someone present news at six with a broad Geordie accent. But there is absolutely no reason for this. It's pure cultural prejudice.

In the UK we just happen to attach cultural prestige to the RP accent. This is no reflection of the accent itself, purely on the power of those who speak it.

Accents and even intonation are constantly evolving, and I think the likes of the rising terminal that makes everything sound like a question just sounds jarring/annoying because it's a fairly recent development.

In terms of accent, I read an article a while back that reckons West of Scotland accents are well on the way to losing what used to be some key features; for example not many people under middle age use the wh-sound in the likes of "white"...it's more likely to come out as "wite". Likewise, that hard "ch" sound is disappearing...most younger people will refer to Lock Lomond. There's a few other more class-related changes...the middle classes still more or less have kept "th", but modern working class kids will have double maffs in school.

There's a fair chance some of those features might end up going the way of the "r" in "Frae Bonnie Scotland"....nobody's used it for decades.

[Michael W]

7 hours ago, Hank Scorpio said:

I didn’t think Kirkcaldy had much of an accent until I moved away. Now when I go back for the football it’s unbearable. “Shya c**t a says tae um a widni dae that fur a hunner pound.”

Agree with this. Or as they'd say in Kirkcaldy: "Aye, a ken, eh?". 

I've never really used "eh" at the end of sentances myself and was probably blind to it growing up, but going back it's painful hearing it used all the time. 

[Guest JTS98]

11 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

Accents and even intonation are constantly evolving, and I think the likes of the rising terminal that makes everything sound like a question just sounds jarring/annoying because it's a fairly recent development.

In terms of accent, I read an article a while back that reckons West of Scotland accents are well on the way to losing what used to be some key features; for example not many people under middle age use the wh-sound in the likes of "white"...it's more likely to come out as "wite". Likewise, that hard "ch" sound is disappearing...most younger people will refer to Lock Lomond. There's a few other more class-related changes...the middle classes still more or less have kept "th", but modern working class kids will have double maffs in school.

There's a fair chance some of those features might end up going the way of the "r" in "Frae Bonnie Scotland"....nobody's used it for decades.

Of course, change is constant. But the rise at the end, as I mentioned, is an import to the west and based mainly in young people rather than a part of the accent as the poster I was responding to implied.

Australians are definitely the gold-medalists for statements that sound like questions though. Also, Australian urban lassies seem to be pushing for the top rank in the vocal fry stakes. That's not a favourite of mine, but what can you do.

Things like the 'ch' in loch have been on borrowed time since the beginning of mass media. If you think about the media consumed by young Scots today, they won't hear the 'ch' sound used very much. Stands to reason it'll die off in time. I think we're already seeing an impact like that in words like 'privacy', which I now sometimes - much to my dismay -  even catch myself reading in my head in the American way.

Nothing stays the same.

[Arch Stanton]

On 22/05/2020 at 18:56, Willie adie said:

BBC Scotland Laura MacIver  has a strange accent

Whereas Nina Spence's accent

[Archie McSquackle]

There are loads of words I hear my kids pronouncing in an American style and they just assume to be correct as it's what they've mainly heard.

I recently watched the Tom Cruise film Edge of Tomorrow with the kids. The characters are based in England and it has numerous English actors saying the word 'omega' in the same way as Tom Cruise. I assume the director told them to pronounce it that way to make sense to an American audience but I just found it really incongruous. The kids thought it was normal.

[Highland Capital]

 

[Jacksgranda]

2 hours ago, Michael W said:

Agree with this. Or as they'd say in Kirkcaldy: "Aye, a ken, eh?". 

I've never really used "eh" at the end of sentances myself and was probably blind to it growing up, but going back it's painful hearing it used all the time. 

Listen with your eyes in Fife,eh?

 

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Is there an actual word for the redundant tags that accents add to the end of sentences?

 

...Ken, ...but, ...likes ...so it is ... innit ... you know...eh

 

 

[Granny Danger]

18 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Is there an actual word for the redundant tags that accents add to the end of sentences?

 

...Ken, ...but, ...likes ...so it is ... innit ... you know...eh

 

 

Can the inclusion of such words be strictly classed as an ‘accent’?

[Michael W]

1 hour ago, Jacksgranda said:

Listen with your eyes in Fife,eh?

 

Aye, wi ma eye, eh. 

[The_Kincardine]

4 hours ago, JTS98 said:

Things like the 'ch' in loch have been on borrowed time since the beginning of mass media. If you think about the media consumed by young Scots today, they won't hear the 'ch' sound used very much. Stands to reason it'll die off in time. I think we're already seeing an impact like that in words like 'privacy', which I now sometimes - much to my dismay -  even catch myself reading in my head in the American way.

Nothing stays the same.

My three have Englishy accents but do ok with words like 'dreich' and 'loch'.  They can also, usually, manage 'schedule' fine.

They do, though, pronounce 'privacy' as 'pry-visy' which irks me and I heard my eldest pronounce 'decade' as 'decayed' the other day.

[topcat(The most tip top)]

Can the inclusion of such words be strictly classed as an ‘accent’?

That’s another good question

[tamthebam]

I sometimes think it's a shame that really local accents seem to be getting lost. For example you can hear in older Dunbar people an accent distinct from Edinburgh whereas the younger Dunbar people have a more generic East of Scotland accent 

It likely represents Dunbar's change to from being a main centre of East Lothian to slowly turning into a dormitory town for Edinburgh

[Guest JTS98]

7 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Is there an actual word for the redundant tags that accents add to the end of sentences?

 

...Ken, ...but, ...likes ...so it is ... innit ... you know...eh

 

 

'So it is' and 'innit' are examples of tails.

This is a concept we're all familiar with through question tags, aren't we? When we finish the utterance by using a phrase that refers back to the pronoun and the verb pattern in the main clause, don't we? It's easy, isn't it?

'That's a pure sin, so it is' or 'He's a faahkin geezer, innit' are just informal, regional versions of this.

But these phrases are not just regional. They are also social markers and this often signals of a sort of diglossia where people will speak one form of English with their pals in the pub but another form in a job interview. Spud's job interview in Trainspotting is funny partly because he fails to code-switch very well for the occasion. Most people with a Scottish accent who live abroad will be familiar with the concept of speaking 'normally' to other Scots while modifying your accent for everyone else. These are all related things. Everybody code-switches to an extent at times.

'Ken', 'but', 'likes' etc are probably more likely to be considered vernacular grammar. People in a speech group agree on a non-standard grammatical use of vocabulary or grammar. Some people don't like this, ken? But a speaker of Black American English ain't goin take no shit about using no double, or triple, or no quad-muthafucking-ruple negatives, you hear? Some people don't like this, but.

There is, of course, nothing wrong whatsoever with regional variations of language. There is nothing inherently wrong with saying 'but' or 'likes' at the end of an utterance. It does no harm. We only consider it undesirable for cultural reasons. The language of people in a poor part of Glasgow is no less rich or worthy than that of people studying at Eton, sipping coffee in Morningside, or reading the news on BBC. It's just different and follows different conventions.

This also takes us into the terrifying realm of the perceived lines between a language with regional variations and a dialect. People have been kicked to death in disagreements over these terms.

Although 'like' can also be used as a, like, normal filler in everyday speech. It's not much different to, like, uh, and um, and well. And 'ken' can be used as a discourse marker to show that you've just made a point or that you're ready for the other person to speak, ken?

Edited May 25, 2020 by JTS98

[Scary Bear]

I heard Scottish Speed Skater, Elise Christie giving an interview today. What the f**k. Last time I heard her interviewed she sounded Scottish. Today she sounded...I don’t know. I think she was effecting an English accent. It was a worse attempt than Dick Van Dyke. Sounded fucking ridiculous and I live in Fife so I know all about ridiculous accents.

[Scary Bear]

If the BBC ever remake Allo Allo and they want a truly mental accent then oor Elise should definitely throw her hat in the ring.

[Scary Bear]

 

[D.A.F.C]

Agree with this. Or as they'd say in Kirkcaldy: "Aye, a ken, eh?". 
I've never really used "eh" at the end of sentances myself and was probably blind to it growing up, but going back it's painful hearing it used all the time.