Coronavirus skeptics

[Honest_Man#1]

4 hours ago, Thereisalight.. said:

I never liked the texture of meat, bone, fat, gristle etc. As for protecting human life’s, of course I don’t want folk to die. I just feel if a vaccine isn’t found, we can’t live with restrictions forever. 

If that is genuinely your opinion then you’ve made an absolute arse of articulating it. I’ve no problem with the above, as if there’s no vaccine (which looks likely) then we will slowly need to drive the numbers down with careful, cautious approaches to returning to work and leisure activities etc.

You said the other day you would happily go back to normal tomorrow, which doesn’t compute with your comment above.

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, Honest_Man#1 said:

If that is genuinely your opinion then you’ve made an absolute arse of articulating it. I’ve no problem with the above, as if there’s no vaccine (which looks likely) then we will slowly need to drive the numbers down with careful, cautious approaches to returning to work and leisure activities etc.

You said the other day you would happily go back to normal tomorrow, which doesn’t compute with your comment above.

I see your mistake here.

You're trying to apply logic to it.

[Thereisalight..]

1 hour ago, Honest_Man#1 said:

If that is genuinely your opinion then you’ve made an absolute arse of articulating it. I’ve no problem with the above, as if there’s no vaccine (which looks likely) then we will slowly need to drive the numbers down with careful, cautious approaches to returning to work and leisure activities etc.

You said the other day you would happily go back to normal tomorrow, which doesn’t compute with your comment above.

I would go back to normal tomorrow. That doesn’t mean I’d happily kill the elderly by spreading it to them. Aside from my Mum, I’m never around any elderly people anyway 

[Granny Danger]

51 minutes ago, Thereisalight.. said:

I would go back to normal tomorrow. That doesn’t mean I’d happily kill the elderly by spreading it to them. Aside from my Mum, I’m never around any elderly people anyway 

Restraining order?

[Dan Steele]

54 minutes ago, Thereisalight.. said:

Aside from my Mum, I’m never around any elderly people anyway 

And, amazingly, you and friends will never become old. Oh, wait.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, Thereisalight.. said:

I would go back to normal tomorrow. That doesn’t mean I’d happily kill the elderly by spreading it to them. Aside from my Mum, I’m never around any elderly people anyway 

That's what Harold Shipman said.

[DA Baracus]

On 20/05/2020 at 18:47, Romeo said:

Does Jet Fuel kill covid?

Covid melts steel beams.

[Tight minge]

Obviously nobody wants florists, greengrocers etc going out of business. I do think they should ban the “extreme” selling of items that I mentioned. Immaterial if they’re a rare find or not

It is happening, whether it stays in force is a different story.

Generally on the topic:

As HK Blues has said, wet markets exist everywhere throughout Asia and in most, although not up to western hygiene standards, are absolutely fine and a necessity.

Even the wet markets selling live animals are fine. It is the few wet markets / stalls trading in exotic and illegal animals that are an issue and these are few and far between in terms of the number wet markets and usually are either in China relating to traditional medicine or beliefs or in rural pockets where certain animals are staples (bats in North Sulawesi).

The generic clamour of ‘these should be banned’ shows a lack of understanding and knowledge and gains no traction. Added with mianzi would only result friction.

In China, who are by far the most guilty in trading in illegal animals, some regions have already taken action. Guangdong has already banned the trade of exotic animals.

Things we need to think about as westerners in this topic:

Would we ban all butchers because a handful the length and breadth of the country are selling some illegal meats (which happens)?

Should America be entitled to challenge our production and consumption of haggis as it doesn’t fit there, erm, exacting health standards.

Many Chinese find what certain regional people there eat as abhorrent (Guangdong as an example). Because a small enclave in North Sulawesi eat bat, doesn’t mean all of Indonesia or Asia eat bat. Most in Indonesia think the practice in North Sulawesi as repulsive as we do.

This is where the racism appears. People stating without any real knowledge that these wet markets should be banned come across racist and uninformed (wether they are or aren’t. Racism and bigotry are a close relation to a lack of understanding and unwillingness to find out). However to suggest they should be better regulated and the ban on exotic animals is wholly acceptable.

Thailand is reputed to be the best street food, Vietnamese food has a strong reputation. Indian, Malay, Indonesian et all are tourist favourites but I guess we just want to look at our plate and not consider how much of it comes from a wet market and how it was handled before being served.

It’s a small minority of traders and consumers attracted to the exotic meats and usually in China that is the issue. The consumption for ‘show’ is easy to clampdown on, consumption for traditional therapy considerably harder.

Hopefully the lessons from this will force the governments to regulate better.

For note, rat is a decent tasty meat.

[tamthebam]

54 minutes ago, Tight John McVeigh is a tit said:

 

It is happening, whether it stays in force is a different story.

Generally on the topic:

As HK Blues has said, wet markets exist everywhere throughout Asia and in most, although not up to western hygiene standards, are absolutely fine and a necessity.

Even the wet markets selling live animals are fine. It is the few wet markets / stalls trading in exotic and illegal animals that are an issue and these are few and far between in terms of the number wet markets and usually are either in China relating to traditional medicine or beliefs or in rural pockets where certain animals are staples (bats in North Sulawesi).

The generic clamour of ‘these should be banned’ shows a lack of understanding and knowledge and gains no traction. Added with mianzi would only result friction.

In China, who are by far the most guilty in trading in illegal animals, some regions have already taken action. Guangdong has already banned the trade of exotic animals.

Things we need to think about as westerners in this topic:

Would we ban all butchers because a handful the length and breadth of the country are selling some illegal meats (which happens)?
 

 

Does anyone else think of Royston Vasey butcher Hilary Briss and the "special meat" when they read this?

Edited May 22, 2020 by tamthebam

[Mr Tourette]

It is happening, whether it stays in force is a different story.

Generally on the topic:

As HK Blues has said, wet markets exist everywhere throughout Asia and in most, although not up to western hygiene standards, are absolutely fine and a necessity.

Even the wet markets selling live animals are fine. It is the few wet markets / stalls trading in exotic and illegal animals that are an issue and these are few and far between in terms of the number wet markets and usually are either in China relating to traditional medicine or beliefs or in rural pockets where certain animals are staples (bats in North Sulawesi).

The generic clamour of ‘these should be banned’ shows a lack of understanding and knowledge and gains no traction. Added with mianzi would only result friction.

In China, who are by far the most guilty in trading in illegal animals, some regions have already taken action. Guangdong has already banned the trade of exotic animals.

Things we need to think about as westerners in this topic:

Would we ban all butchers because a handful the length and breadth of the country are selling some illegal meats (which happens)?

Should America be entitled to challenge our production and consumption of haggis as it doesn’t fit there, erm, exacting health standards.

Many Chinese find what certain regional people there eat as abhorrent (Guangdong as an example). Because a small enclave in North Sulawesi eat bat, doesn’t mean all of Indonesia or Asia eat bat. Most in Indonesia think the practice in North Sulawesi as repulsive as we do.

This is where the racism appears. People stating without any real knowledge that these wet markets should be banned come across racist and uninformed (wether they are or aren’t. Racism and bigotry are a close relation to a lack of understanding and unwillingness to find out). However to suggest they should be better regulated and the ban on exotic animals is wholly acceptable.

Thailand is reputed to be the best street food, Vietnamese food has a strong reputation. Indian, Malay, Indonesian et all are tourist favourites but I guess we just want to look at our plate and not consider how much of it comes from a wet market and how it was handled before being served.

It’s a small minority of traders and consumers attracted to the exotic meats and usually in China that is the issue. The consumption for ‘show’ is easy to clampdown on, consumption for traditional therapy considerably harder.

Hopefully the lessons from this will force the governments to regulate better.

For note, rat is a decent tasty meat.

I lived and worked in rural Malaysia in the mid 90s and used to go out to eat with local Chinese Malays from work. I ate all kinds of weird animals but didn’t know what they were until after I’d tried them. The Chinese guys used to order in Chinese and wouldn’t tell me what it was until after I’d tried it.

I can report that fruit bat, rat, snake and monitor lizard are very good. Tortoise, cat and squirrel are shite. The rest were a bit meh

Sea cucumber is fucking awful but the only reason the Chinese eat it is because it looks like a big dick and they reckon it’s an aphrodisiac

[Honest_Man#1]

7 hours ago, Thereisalight.. said:

I would go back to normal tomorrow. That doesn’t mean I’d happily kill the elderly by spreading it to them. Aside from my Mum, I’m never around any elderly people anyway 

That’s fine for you then.

If you seriously can’t see how that’s an unbelievably selfish way to view it, then I’ll not bother trying to explain it.

[tamthebam]

1 hour ago, Mr Tourette said:

 

I lived and worked in rural Malaysia in the mid 90s and used to go out to eat with local Chinese Malays from work. I ate all kinds of weird animals but didn’t know what they were until after I’d tried them. The Chinese guys used to order in Chinese and wouldn’t tell me what it was until after I’d tried it.

I can report that fruit bat, rat, snake and monitor lizard are very good. Tortoise, cat and squirrel are shite. The rest were a bit meh

Sea cucumber is fucking awful but the only reason the Chinese eat it is because it looks like a big dick and they reckon it’s an aphrodisiac

 

Some of the suspicious sausage suppers I've had in this country I should have been a stallion in bed 

I went out with a Malaysian Chinese and she told me about getting snake at a restaurant. They took it out a basket, walloped it on the head, cut it down the middle and cooked it in front of her. At least it was fresh I suppose 

It'll be disappointing for one M Mullarkey to know that squirrel tastes shite as he may have had plans for a barbecue...

[Guest JTS98]

6 hours ago, Tight John McVeigh is a tit said:

Hopefully the lessons from this will force the governments to regulate better.

 

It would be good if this could be done reliably. This is where the endemic corruption in the region becomes a problem though.

It's all well and good for the government in Jakarta, or Putrajaya, or Beijing, to say that these changes and controls of exotic animals will be strictly policed. But we both know that doesn't mean a lot locally when people who have known each other for decades see a business opportunity involving mutual favours and prosperity, and where locals massively resent being told what to do by p***ks from the big city.

Here in Malaysia there was a fuss over markets in Penang that were found to be completely ignoring recommendations from the government. Locally, nobody bothered their arse. When it became a news story the government shut them down. But how many other places around the country are these guidelines being totally ignored? How many of these places have fewer foreigners living in them than Penang and have no man on the ground from the New Straits Times?

Look at the recurring deforestation in Indonesia that causes huge environmental problems for the whole region every year. In four months everybody in KL will be choking on smog, same as every year. The Indonesian government can say anything they like, but we all know they are powerless at a local level to stop it happening.

Or look at how local officials in China routinely provide false figures concerning regional pollution levels to allow them to continue to post economic growth. Everybody knows they're lying and covering up, but it's in nobody's interests to blow the whistle and at the end of the chain the government in Beijing can say with a straight face 'We've imposed strict regulations to tackle pollution and are doing all we can' while knowing that the whole thing is a charade. But nobody says so because everybody is getting paid/promoted/keeping their job and everybody is saving face.

I agree with you that wet markets in and of themselves are not necessarily dangerous. I've been to plenty myself over the years. But the cultural norms in the region don't allow for the type of control required to make them safe.

As I said way back at the beginning of this, it's situations like this that show us that bad political systems riddled with corruption are not only a concern from the point of view of wishy-washy liberal views on right and wrong, but they are demonstrably dangerous.

This is why intelligent foreign policy and a savvy foreign aid system are so vital. The rich world needs to pull the left-out regions of the impoverished world into its orbit to provide both a serious regulatory system and an economic alternative to dangerous practices. Unless this is achieved, we'll always be at risk of outbreaks like this and issues such as climate change can never be tackled meaningfully, regardless of how many plastic bottles your average New York hipster recycles.

You're absolutely right that telling people to abandon traditional ways of living is just not a viable solution. Hopefully this crisis can be used as a line in the sand for sensible discussion around how countries can work together to solve problems that affect us all. Deforestation in Indonesia is bad for everyone, ultimately. Including the Indonesians. Viruses spreading from wet markets are bad for everyone, including the wet markets. We need to find a way to use that.

Edited May 23, 2020 by JTS98

[Tight minge]

It would be good if this could be done reliably. This is where the endemic corruption in the region becomes a problem though.
It's all well and good for the government in Jakarta, or Putrajaya, or Beijing, to say that these changes and controls of exotic animals will be strictly policed. But we both know that doesn't mean a lot locally when people who have known each other for decades see a business opportunity involving mutual favours and prosperity, and where locals massively resent being told what to do by p***ks from the big city.
Here in Malaysia there was a fuss over markets in Penang that were found to be completely ignoring recommendations from the government. Locally, nobody bothered their arse. When it became a news story the government shut them down. But how many other places around the country are these guidelines being totally ignored? How many of these places have fewer foreigners living in them than Penang and have no man on the ground from the New Straits Times?
Look at the recurring deforestation in Indonesia that causes huge environmental problems for the whole region every year. In four months everybody in KL will be choking on smog, same as every year. The Indonesian government can say anything they like, but we all know they are powerless at a local level to stop it happening.
Or look at how local officials in China routinely provide false figures concerning regional pollution levels to allow them to continue to post economic growth. Everybody knows they're lying and covering up, but it's in nobody's interests to blow the whistle and at the end of the chain the government in Beijing can say with a straight face 'We've imposed strict regulations to tackle pollution and are doing all we can' while knowing that the whole thing is a charade. But nobody says so because everybody is getting paid/promoted/keeping their job and everybody is saving face.
I agree with you that wet markets in and of themselves are not necessarily dangerous. I've been to plenty myself over the years. But the cultural norms in the region don't allow for the type of control required to make them safe.
As I said way back at the beginning of this, it's situations like this that show us that bad political systems riddled with corruption are not only a concern from the point of view of wishy-washy liberal views on right and wrong, but they are demonstrably dangerous.
This is why intelligent foreign policy and a savvy foreign aid system are so vital. The rich world needs to pull the left-out regions of the impoverished world into its orbit to provide both a serious regulatory system and an economic alternative to dangerous practices. Unless this is achieved, we'll always be at risk of outbreaks like this and issues such as climate change can never be tackled meaningfully, regardless of how many plastic bottles your average New York hipster recycles.

Nothing to disagree with there. I can see some governments making some effort, and can see some change in more developed areas, but near impossible in rural areas for all the reasons you state.

In reality there is little point to discuss your first few paragraphs until there is a realisation on your last paragraph that is wholly pertinent.

Western perceptions of Asia are generally ill informed and I think it is hard for anyone to really understand what rural ‘kampung’ life is like in these places. Its easy to criticise, scorn and laugh at people for deep traditions, belief in juju, corruption and everything you see in these areas, but that doesn’t help. What we fail to realise is that when we talk about global issues, climate change/Covid-19, they won’t truly be solved until everyone develops as you say

Education and access to information is paramount.

As we have such fast paced technical advancements, the gulf been developed and undeveloped gets bigger and in some cases the positives we think we are doing are counterweighted by negatives we don’t see. The New York hipster you refer to, the move to EV, when your old car will just be going round the clock in worse repair in a third world country.

A whole bigger topic for sure

[Dee Man]

12 hours ago, Thereisalight.. said:

I would go back to normal tomorrow. That doesn’t mean I’d happily kill the elderly by spreading it to them. Aside from my Mum, I’m never around any elderly people anyway 

Do you still not understand that you could unwittingly pass it on on to someone who does come into contact with old or vulnerable people?