The Dundee United Thread 22/23

[Derry Alli]

Timmy Mallet 

[Juantwothree]

1 hour ago, Hoose Rice said:

Decent Club for them to all to join.

Only if you like alot of chocolate 

[mishtergrolsch]

36 minutes ago, Juantwothree said:

Only if you like alot of chocolate 

Confectionery thread for this pish

[ArabFC]

6 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

I’ve become very relaxed about our future, whatever happens will happen and so long as we can avoid a repeat of Mellonball I’m okay with it.

Was Mellonball really all that different from the eye-bleeding fitba of Neilson or Courts?

Can't say I noticed it.

I'll hope that Fox is some new great coach that'll have us playing great fitba, but...

[mishtergrolsch]

13 minutes ago, ArabFC said:

Was Mellonball really all that different from the eye-bleeding fitba of Neilson or Courts?

Can't say I noticed it.

I'll hope that Fox is some new great coach that'll have us playing great fitba, but...

The main difference between Mellonball and Courts was that people were at the games under Courts and that in itself was an improvement from watching rubbish on the TV at home. 

The football itself was practically just as bad imo.

[Pull My Strings]

Courts' team was miles better than Mellon's in terms of structure, control and defensive solidity. We still scored hardly any goals but we also didn't take any thumpings. Micky was good at getting guys to run around a lot, for a long time, and then run around some more. Credit where it’s due.

[SGMilne]

If the appointment of Fox has shown anything it's that there's a large section of online football fans who have an obsession with perceived status and very short term memories.

Fox, despite having us win in Livingston for the first time in a long time, get our first clean sheet since Alkmaar at home and then come pretty close to a point at Ibrox is a cheap option and is destined for failure, and that we needed an experienced name to come in (in spite of us hiring one of the highest profile available managers in the summer and is backfiring disastrously). Well...either an experienced name or someone who isn't experienced but used to play for us (Ferguson, Robson, Daly et al), because that's also a sign of intent, apparently.

I get it, it's not an exciting appointment, but some people are discounting it as an immediately poor appointment because apparently there's this magic formula that says that the only way you'll get a good manager is if you hire one with a track record or a guy who used to play for us. This in spite of some of our best and most successful managers taking United as their first managerial job (McLean, Houston) and some of our most costly flops being ones who either had experience of used to play for is (Ian McCall, Jack Ross, Paul Sturrock, Mixu, Laszlo etc). Even looking at the last year, compare Courts with Ross.  Results get no worse than some of the ones we saw under Ross while we finished 4th and never once embarrassed ourselves vs the Old Firm or anyone else under Courts. But he fits exactly the sort of profile some supporters want still. And I'm sure they were also delighted when we brought him in.

There is no magic formula; there's no guarantee of success with any manager, but I suspect one of the reasons that assistant managers can sometimes do well when promoted to the top job is that they have the respect of the players, which is hugely important. Like everyone else, I was raging with the players for quite clearly downing tools under Ross, but the widely held belief is that the players were the ones solely at fault for that, and nobody looked to Jack Ross and asked "What has he done to get this sort of reaction and how is this not his fault?". Rumour has become fact, so let's assume that he did come in and piss of Charlie Mulgrew and Tony Watt who then rooted against him. How is that good management? How is coming in and immediately getting two of the most influential players in a side who finished fourth offside a good thing?  It's not; it's nuts. Jack Ross seems to piss players off at every club he goes to, and outside of one season at St. Mirren, doesn't have a great track record. 

Like I say, I don't know if Fox will be a success for us - personally I think the coaching appointments are just as important - but I doubt he's any more likely or unlikely to be a success than any realistic candidate out there. Is he a frugal appointment? Yeah, of course, but is he a worse appointment? There's no way of telling.

But now when I read social media, it's full of people saying that this was all some kind of pantomime and he was always going to get the job and boo-hiss to Utd. Again, that might be the case but i don't really see the logic behind it. What I do see is - much like any hiring process in any walk of life - when one of the candidates is already in the company and has been given a trial over a few weeks to do it, and has shown he's not too bad at it, then of course he's going to get the job. If I was Asghar and Ogren the exact thing I would want to see before I made that decision was how well he did at Ibrox. Surely Rangers at Ibrox is a good measuring stick to put against Celtic at Tannadice. Are people seriously saying that if we'd lost the Livi and Well games and got pumped at Ibrox he'd have got the job? Don't be daft.

Unfortunately that's where we are now though; people egging each other on online to fuel paranoia about how United is run. The current picture is that Mark Ogren is a naive and distant hero who has unfortunately placed power in the hands of an evil megalomaniac who everybody in football despises and who hates all of the United fans. I don't know if there's just something comforting in being angry against those in power or that post Stephen Thompson there has to be someone to hate. I just don't get it.

It's not helped by people saying that something must be wrong at Tannadice to go through so many managers, and they don't scratch the surface of that to understand that it's not as strange as it looks.

Robbie Neilson: Offered more money at his favourite club with a bigger budget. Had he stayed, many fans were already saying that they'd give him until October. Why would he stay?

Micky Mellon: Brought us safety in the league and got us to the semi final of the cup, but he was desperately unpopular among the players and staff (I know this from speaking to some of them at the time) and had there been crowds in at Tannadice observing the quality of football we played under him, he'd have been sacked sooner.

Tam Courts: Offered an opportunity to develop his career abroad. Probably felt - quite rightly - that his stock was about as high as it was going to get with us, and also likely knew that he was always 3 defeats away from fans going mental about how he was a terrible appointment because of his lack of experience.

Jack Ross: Absolute nightmare

All four of those managers for one reason or another was on a sticky wicket with the United support. And let's face it, we - much like fans of just about any club - are a very demanding support. But we're also the heroes in our own stories and so reality becomes skewed and the perceived truth is that these guys didn't want to work under Tony Asghar, but otherwise would have loved to have stayed.

And I know that inevitably someone's going to quote tweet this and say "That's clearly Tony Asghar writing this" (well, now I've said that they no doubt will) but I just think we need to get away from this boogeyman mentality. I don't know him, I've never met him and he might be a p***k. He's certainly thin skinned, but then when every day there's vitriol from the same people (have you read the likes of the Tek or East Football forums? Grown men post about how they hate him every day of their lives and there's now guys saying they hope Liam Fox is a massive failure so Asghar gets punted; think about that one for a moment) I don't really blame him for occasionally firing back.

But let's say Fox is a success; will supporters come out and say "Fair play, they got it right." I doubt it.#

Anyway, rant over; let's just hope Fox does the business 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by SGMilne

[Pull My Strings]

I agree with virtually every word, although I'm not sure the crazy conspiracy narratives have been particularly evident on here. There's another forum which I occasionally read where that criticism is absolutely spot on but the response on here has been a bit more measured, I think.

[SGMilne]

4 minutes ago, Pull My Strings said:

I agree with virtually every word, although I'm not sure the crazy conspiracy narratives have been particularly evident on here. There's another forum which I occasionally read where that criticism is absolutely spot on but the response on here has been a bit more measured, I think.

Yeah, that's why I've posted it on here 

There's just no point in posting on some of the other forums or even Twitter anymore. I'm not on some of the Facebook groups but apparently they are even worse.

[Coventry Saint]

13 hours ago, Pull My Strings said:

 we also didn't take any thumpings. 

I would have sworn Courts was in charge when we won 5-1 at your place, but right enough it was Mellon.

Mad that that was 18 months ago and you're onto your fourth manager since then. Obviously not your fault Courts left, but you're gonna have quite the predicament if Fox can't get a tune out of what is still a decent looking squad. If you're into February and the football's shite and you're still bottom, do you give this one time or twist again?

[Tannadeechee]

3 hours ago, SGMilne said:

Rumour has become fact, so let's assume that he did come in and piss of Charlie Mulgrew and Tony Watt who then rooted against him. How is that good management? How is coming in and immediately getting two of the most influential players in a side who finished fourth offside a good thing?  It's not; it's nuts. Jack Ross seems to piss players off at every club he goes to, and outside of one season at St. Mirren, doesn't have a great track record. 

 

 

Have to agree with pretty much everything said by @SGMilne A vast number of our fans these days have to have a "bogeyman" real or imagined. Everything has to be the fault of one person. Also opinions seem to change or indeed flip-flop as often as the date changes.

The one thing I'd expand on though is the quoted bit. I remember all the comment last season about how we had 2 managers, one in the dugout and one on the pitch. I have also seen us last year slow the play down from the back, usually at the request of 1 player, stopping us from taking advantage of the opposition being out of position, while watching Courts react negatively. It wasn't a big reaction but you could see he was not pleased. You'd then hear him in the interview talking about how he wanted the play to be quicker etc. That ties in with some of what I'd heard about one source of friction.

On the appointment he'll have my support, I just hope this isn't the easy option that doesn't annoy/upset the playing squad, and I would have given him to the end of the season, unlelss we have a walk a way option if it goes badly.

It is mostly reported that Fox lead the training and put into practice what Courts wanted & is respected by the players. Having them play for you is half the battle (or more than half) and hopefully that continues.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Tannadeechee

[Granny Danger]

I must have missed all the criticism of Ross on here when he was appointed.

I suppose I should pay more attention.  

[Dundee Hibernian]

4 hours ago, SGMilne said:

If the appointment of Fox has shown anything it's that there's a large section of online football fans who have an obsession with perceived status and very short term memories.

Fox, despite having us win in Livingston for the first time in a long time, get our first clean sheet since Alkmaar at home and then come pretty close to a point at Ibrox is a cheap option and is destined for failure, and that we needed an experienced name to come in (in spite of us hiring one of the highest profile available managers in the summer and is backfiring disastrously). Well...either an experienced name or someone who isn't experienced but used to play for us (Ferguson, Robson, Daly et al), because that's also a sign of intent, apparently.

I get it, it's not an exciting appointment, but some people are discounting it as an immediately poor appointment because apparently there's this magic formula that says that the only way you'll get a good manager is if you hire one with a track record or a guy who used to play for us. This in spite of some of our best and most successful managers taking United as their first managerial job (McLean, Houston) and some of our most costly flops being ones who either had experience of used to play for is (Ian McCall, Jack Ross, Paul Sturrock, Mixu, Laszlo etc). Even looking at the last year, compare Courts with Ross.  Results get no worse than some of the ones we saw under Ross while we finished 4th and never once embarrassed ourselves vs the Old Firm or anyone else under Courts. But he fits exactly the sort of profile some supporters want still. And I'm sure they were also delighted when we brought him in.

There is no magic formula; there's no guarantee of success with any manager, but I suspect one of the reasons that assistant managers can sometimes do well when promoted to the top job is that they have the respect of the players, which is hugely important. Like everyone else, I was raging with the players for quite clearly downing tools under Ross, but the widely held belief is that the players were the ones solely at fault for that, and nobody looked to Jack Ross and asked "What has he done to get this sort of reaction and how is this not his fault?". Rumour has become fact, so let's assume that he did come in and piss of Charlie Mulgrew and Tony Watt who then rooted against him. How is that good management? How is coming in and immediately getting two of the most influential players in a side who finished fourth offside a good thing?  It's not; it's nuts. Jack Ross seems to piss players off at every club he goes to, and outside of one season at St. Mirren, doesn't have a great track record. 

Like I say, I don't know if Fox will be a success for us - personally I think the coaching appointments are just as important - but I doubt he's any more likely or unlikely to be a success than any realistic candidate out there. Is he a frugal appointment? Yeah, of course, but is he a worse appointment? There's no way of telling.

But now when I read social media, it's full of people saying that this was all some kind of pantomime and he was always going to get the job and boo-hiss to Utd. Again, that might be the case but i don't really see the logic behind it. What I do see is - much like any hiring process in any walk of life - when one of the candidates is already in the company and has been given a trial over a few weeks to do it, and has shown he's not too bad at it, then of course he's going to get the job. If I was Asghar and Ogren the exact thing I would want to see before I made that decision was how well he did at Ibrox. Surely Rangers at Ibrox is a good measuring stick to put against Celtic at Tannadice. Are people seriously saying that if we'd lost the Livi and Well games and got pumped at Ibrox he'd have got the job? Don't be daft.

Unfortunately that's where we are now though; people egging each other on online to fuel paranoia about how United is run. The current picture is that Mark Ogren is a naive and distant hero who has unfortunately placed power in the hands of an evil megalomaniac who everybody in football despises and who hates all of the United fans. I don't know if there's just something comforting in being angry against those in power or that post Stephen Thompson there has to be someone to hate. I just don't get it.

It's not helped by people saying that something must be wrong at Tannadice to go through so many managers, and they don't scratch the surface of that to understand that it's not as strange as it looks.

Robbie Neilson: Offered more money at his favourite club with a bigger budget. Had he stayed, many fans were already saying that they'd give him until October. Why would he stay?

Micky Mellon: Brought us safety in the league and got us to the semi final of the cup, but he was desperately unpopular among the players and staff (I know this from speaking to some of them at the time) and had there been crowds in at Tannadice observing the quality of football we played under him, he'd have been sacked sooner.

Tam Courts: Offered an opportunity to develop his career abroad. Probably felt - quite rightly - that his stock was about as high as it was going to get with us, and also likely knew that he was always 3 defeats away from fans going mental about how he was a terrible appointment because of his lack of experience.

Jack Ross: Absolute nightmare

All four of those managers for one reason or another was on a sticky wicket with the United support. And let's face it, we - much like fans of just about any club - are a very demanding support. But we're also the heroes in our own stories and so reality becomes skewed and the perceived truth is that these guys didn't want to work under Tony Asghar, but otherwise would have loved to have stayed.

And I know that inevitably someone's going to quote tweet this and say "That's clearly Tony Asghar writing this" (well, now I've said that they no doubt will) but I just think we need to get away from this boogeyman mentality. I don't know him, I've never met him and he might be a p***k. He's certainly thin skinned, but then when every day there's vitriol from the same people (have you read the likes of the Tek or East Football forums? Grown men post about how they hate him every day of their lives and there's now guys saying they hope Liam Fox is a massive failure so Asghar gets punted; think about that one for a moment) I don't really blame him for occasionally firing back.

But let's say Fox is a success; will supporters come out and say "Fair play, they got it right." I doubt it.#

Anyway, rant over; let's just hope Fox does the business 

Agree with the bulk of that, and it's especially galling to read comments on some of the other boards at times. That Tek board is especially vitriolic, some of these posters must be arseholes to meet in real life. East seems to be a board where posters argue for the sake of it.

2 hours ago, Tannadeechee said:

Have to agree with pretty much everything said by @SGMilne A vast number of our fans these days have to have a "bogeyman" real or imagined. Everything has to be the fault of one person. Also opinions seem to change or indeed flip-flop as often as the date changes.

The one thing I'd expand on though is the quoted bit. I remember all the comment last season about how we had 2 managers, one in the dugout and one on the pitch. I have also seen us last year slow the play down from the back, usually at the request of 1 player, stopping us from taking advantage of the opposition being out of position, while watching Courts react negatively. It wasn't a big reaction but you could see he was not pleased. You'd then hear him in the interview talking about how he wanted the play to be quicker etc. That ties in with some of what I'd heard about one source of friction.

On the appointment he'll have my support, I just hope this isn't the easy option that doesn't annoy/upset the playing squad, and I would have given him to the end of the season, unlelss we have a walk a way option if it goes badly.

It is mostly reported that Fox lead the training and put into practice what Courts wanted & is respected by the players. Having them play for you is half the battle (or more than half) and hopefully that continues.

Mulgrew isn't likely to change his style, perhaps he needs 'rested' more often.

2 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

I must have missed all the criticism of Ross on here when he was appointed.

I suppose I should pay more attention.  

Unsure what you are meaning here: have many folk been claiming a large section of the support were anti Ross at the announcement of his appointment?

I don't get the poison aimed at Asghar by a large section of the support: it seems some fans have too much faith in what they read on message boards, and base their mindset on that rather than use their own intelligence. To me it clones the work of the media on the voting public.

[Granny Danger]

8 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

Unsure what you are meaning here: have many folk been claiming a large section of the support were anti Ross at the announcement of his appointment?

I don't get the poison aimed at Asghar by a large section of the support: it seems some fans have too much faith in what they read on message boards, and base their mindset on that rather than use their own intelligence. To me it clones the work of the media on the voting public.

For the first part, quite the reverse we all seemed happy with Ross’s appointment at the time but some posters are being revisionist.

As for the second part, there’s a point where Ashgar has to be held accountable for the failure of managers that he’s appointed.  Let’s all hope it’s not in the near future.

[SGMilne]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

For the first part, quite the reverse we all seemed happy with Ross’s appointment at the time but some posters are being revisionist.

As for the second part, there’s a point where Ashgar has to be held accountable for the failure of managers that he’s appointed.  Let’s all hope it’s not in the near future.

That point may not have been too clear in my post...

There's a lot of people now criticising United for appointing Fox. A lot of these same people were quite happy with Ross's appointment, so maybe they aren't the best judges.

But then at the same time they are also saying that because of the way the club has acted in recent years "no decent manager will touch us", even though Jack Ross is exactly the sort of manager who fit their criteria and they were all complicit in Ross being fired because like every Utd fan out there, they wanted him gone. But for whatever reason, people will find a way to blame it squarely on Tony Asghar.

FWIW, if Sadat Anaku turns out to be a great signing, I wonder who will get the praise for it, considering it's Asghar's recruitment team who brought him over.

[Dundee Hibernian]

6 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

As for the second part, there’s a point where Ashgar has to be held accountable for the failure of managers that he’s appointed.  Let’s all hope it’s not in the near future.

When you write 'failure of managers' in the plural, I'm wondering who else was a failure apart from Ross? We improved under every other manager, Neilson, Mellon, Courts all taking us higher in the Scottish rankings season on season.

And, as you say, 'we all seemed happy with Ross' being appointed. 

[Granny Danger]

8 minutes ago, Dundee Hibernian said:

When you write 'failure of managers' in the plural, I'm wondering who else was a failure apart from Ross? We improved under every other manager, Neilson, Mellon, Courts all taking us higher in the Scottish rankings season on season.

And, as you say, 'we all seemed happy with Ross' being appointed. 

We were all happy with Ross, myself included, however I think we’d all accept that he was a failure.

If his replacement is a failure that would be managers; plural.  Let’s hope he’s not.

[Big Shedboy]

Great post @SGMilne

[Sarto Mutiny]

When you write 'failure of managers' in the plural, I'm wondering who else was a failure apart from Ross? We improved under every other manager, Neilson, Mellon, Courts all taking us higher in the Scottish rankings season on season.
And, as you say, 'we all seemed happy with Ross' being appointed. 

On a point of pedantry, Neilson was at the club before Asghar was. However, your overall point is correct, neither Mellon nor Courts were failures, style of play notwithstanding

[Dundee Hibernian]

3 hours ago, Sarto Mutiny said:

On 24/09/2022 at 20:38, Dundee Hibernian said:

When you write 'failure of managers' in the plural, I'm wondering who else was a failure apart from Ross? We improved under every other manager, Neilson, Mellon, Courts all taking us higher in the Scottish rankings season on season.
And, as you say, 'we all seemed happy with Ross' being appointed. 

On a point of pedantry, Neilson was at the club before Asghar was. However, your overall point is correct, neither Mellon nor Courts were failures, style of play notwithstanding

Aye, you are right. Nonetheless, I recall being at a game shortly after Neilson arrived against QoS, where the discussion around me was on new US owners. I'm sure they and Asghar had knowledge of the managerial change prior to everything being signed off to the Ogrens.