Catchup w/ George Fraser

[Burnieman]

40 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Dinnae worry, Larry's new lapdog Marten will be onto stick up for him.

Steady, I think you're being very unfair to Marten.

[welshbairn]

4 hours ago, Born To Run said:

Sharing this in here as we delved into the West of Scotland League, with particular reference to what George knew and when from the SFA. Might well be of interest!

Really good, well prepared and informative interview. Cheers!

[Marten]

10 hours ago, Burnieman said:

Steady, I think you're being very unfair to Marten.

Thanks, I never blindly follow anyone. People might not always agree with me but I regularly ask critical questions, also to Larry. I'm not afraid to criticise him (or others) face to face if I think that's needed.

I always listen to both sides of the argument. Also in this pyramid discussion, I've read / listened to interviews with people in the juniors and outside of it.

[Jerry Macguire]

33 minutes ago, Marten said:

Thanks, I never blindly follow anyone. People might not always agree with me but I regularly ask critical questions, also to Larry. I'm not afraid to criticise him (or others) face to face if I think that's needed.

I always listen to both sides of the argument. Also in this pyramid discussion, I've read / listened to interviews with people in the juniors and outside of it.

Always a fair minded poster. What was your view on what George had to say?

[Marten]

1 hour ago, Jerry Macguire said:

Always a fair minded poster. What was your view on what George had to say?

Thanks!

The main "friction" is the conferences debate, whether or not the SFA made clear that they wouldn't be allowed. It's really the word of one person against the other so it's hard for me to really judge either way. Let's also not forget that there are human beings involved so the SFA could genuinely believe they made clear it wouldn't be allowed whilst George Fraser genuinely believes they didn't make it clear with miscommunication resulting in this confusion. Obviously the SFA / Rod Petrie are not exactly known for being clear all the time. 

Accusations of "liars" are being thrown around a bit too easily at times, from both the "junior" and the "senior" side of the debate. A liar is really someone who tells something that they know is untrue. Plenty of things have been said by various people that turned out not to be true, but for them being a "liar" they must have known it wasn't true. Various people can have been convinced that what they said was true (Larry, George and many other people), but it's well possible they either have based themselves on incomplete information or were given false information from others that they believed to be true. Take the "done deal" issue 2 years ago, I know various people within the junior game (including Larry) genuinely believed that to be true. Whether they were just naive to believe what they were told or they were fed by a real liar elsewhere is open to interpretation.

I for one can't wait for this all to be over with. The remaining juniors will ultimately become part of the pyramid. The game is chancing, not everyone likes it but we need to face reality. I actually quite liked the suggestion of the Armadale chairman that was posted here on P&B previously that the SFA should ultimately start taking charge of the pyramid in the way the FA does it in England. There was a lot of bickering & pain down there at the start as well, but it became properly structured when the FA took more control of it and now it's running quite well. Maybe that's the way forward for Scotland as well.

I don't like how various people are being put down in the game and it should come to an end. Love or hate Larry, he is a committed guy who does a hell of a lot of work, not just for Lochee United but for the local community as a whole, a true football man. And he is not the only one in the committee I can say that about. Yes, he speaks his mind and he can sometimes use words that I wouldn't use personally, not just on this issue but that's just how he is. But he is the kind of person that football needs in terms of the amount of work he does. And yes, the same can be said about many other people, including George. People from either side of the debate putting people from the "other side" down in ways I see on here sometimes isn't something I like to see and that's why I can't wait for just one clear structure for all to be in place, hopefully sooner rather than later.

I'm always willing to listen to the other side of a story so if anyone is happy to talk to me I'm more than happy to come down to Alloa for a BSC game one day and have a friendly discussion over a pint.  

Edited May 14, 2020 by Marten

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Marten said:

Take the "done deal" issue 2 years ago, I know various people within the junior game (including Larry) genuinely believed that to be true. Whether they were just naive to believe what they told or they were fed by a real liar elsewhere is open to interpretation.

I'd put that down to a new SFA Chief Executive not understanding the complexities of what was involved. Parties agreeing in principle to West & Tayside inclusion not meaning West & East Regions as they currently existed.

Then on the SJFA forwarding on an email intended for the PWG representatives, so that the draft statement included was presented as fact.

I wouldn't say either was lying. Naivety on Maxwell's part and opportunism at best by the SJFA.

[Marten]

5 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'd put that down to a new SFA Chief Executive not understanding the complexities of what was involved. Parties agreeing in principle to West & Tayside inclusion not meaning West & East Regions as they currently existed.

Then on the SJFA forwarding on an email intended for the PWG representatives, so that the draft statement included was presented as fact.

I wouldn't say either was lying. Naivety on Maxwell's part and opportunism at best by the SJFA.

Let's not forget that after that (like at the meeting with the EOS clubs) the SFA executives (was it Rod Petrie at the EOS meeting?) didn't even realise there was a boundary or how things actually work. It can easily be the case that Maxwell (as a follow up on that email) told the SJFA that it's all fine as they'll make sure it is whilst not realising all the different issues that still had to be cleared, with the SJFA then communicating Maxwell's "assurance" to their members. This is just me speculating but that could easily have been the case. So as you say, it's probably more naivety than lying.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Marten

[Jerry Macguire]

We do need to draw a line and move on, however what struck me about the interview with George Fraser was the professional tone of his responses.  No singling anyone out for criticism, no pointing of fingers. Just rational reasoned responses. As important a role Larry plays to Lochee and junior football in general he didn’t do himself or his club any favours with his personal attack on George and others. It was clear by the ‘liar’ comments and the comments made about BSC what his agenda was and who he wanted to attack and try to undermine. Only he knows what he was trying to achieve but judging from the majority of comments I’ve read it’s backfired. 

[Born To Run]

1 hour ago, Marten said:

I’m always willing to listen to the other side of a story so if anyone is happy to talk to me I'm more than happy to come down to Alloa for a BSC game one day and have a friendly discussion over a pint.  

I’m sure you’d be made to feel more than welcome if visiting!  

[geo87]

Very good listen, agree with previous comments around George speaking very well.

I do think the lowland league are going to lead the way here and open up automatic relegation before they can truely put pressure on league 2. Granted it shouldn’t be this way but once lowland is opening up there can very little reasonable argument for league 2 not to do the same

[Marten]

48 minutes ago, Jerry Macguire said:

We do need to draw a line and move on, however what struck me about the interview with George Fraser was the professional tone of his responses.  No singling anyone out for criticism, no pointing of fingers. Just rational reasoned responses. As important a role Larry plays to Lochee and junior football in general he didn’t do himself or his club any favours with his personal attack on George and others. It was clear by the ‘liar’ comments and the comments made about BSC what his agenda was and who he wanted to attack and try to undermine. Only he knows what he was trying to achieve but judging from the majority of comments I’ve read it’s backfired. 

I agree we need to draw a line and move on, this is why I can't wait for it all to be sorted. That will happen sooner or later, there could still be bitterness left after that but the main thing is we can than just move forward. As said, Larry's choice of words isn't always what I would use. There is frustration on Tayside, it seems that neither the HL, nor the LL want Tayside to be a part of their area. That's also why I said I agree with the suggestion of the SFA controlling the pyramid in the way it's happening down south. 

Let's move on and when football eventually returns, we can focus on what's happening on the pitch again!

[Burnieman]

5 minutes ago, Marten said:

I agree we need to draw a line and move on, this is why I can't wait for it all to be sorted. That will happen sooner or later, there could still be bitterness left after that but the main thing is we can than just move forward. As said, Larry's choice of words isn't always what I would use. There is frustration on Tayside, it seems that neither the HL, nor the LL want Tayside to be a part of their area. That's also why I said I agree with the suggestion of the SFA controlling the pyramid in the way it's happening down south. 

Let's move on and when football eventually returns, we can focus on what's happening on the pitch again!

Choice of words is one way of putting it, coming out and calling people involved in running the LL and EoS "liars" is completely out of order  (as it was with Felix McKenna's mad tweets).

I'm willing to bet his fellow Tayside clubs hold their head in their hands when he opens his gob in that environment, he certainly hasn't done them any favours and it won't be easily forgotten by those he has defamed.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Burnieman

[Marten]

34 minutes ago, Born To Run said:

I’m sure you’d be made to feel more than welcome if visiting!  

Thanks, I'm sure I will be. 

[traffordab]

What will also never be forgotten will be the way a handful of spiteful individuals involved with clubs either directly or indirectly have acted on forums like this attacking the junior game and people involved over and over for years . 

What will never be accepted is these people appearing out of nowhere running our historic junior clubs that should be and will be left to those involved previously. 

These rifts are here forever and the 'pyramid ' will long term due to the nature of scottish never really come to full fruition. 

All in all a truly sad set of affairs an idea that was mean to push scottish football in non league football on has well and truly smashed it to pieces with mistrust and bitterness that will never go away very much mirroring the spfl top four leagues. 

These divides will now never heal from an officials and fans point of view. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by traffordab

[Jerry Macguire]

2 minutes ago, traffordab said:

What will also never be forgotten will be the way a handful of spiteful individuals involved with clubs either directly or indirectly have acted on forums like this attacking the junior game and people involved over and over for years . 

What will never be accepted is these people appearing out of nowhere running our historic junior clubs that should be and will be left to those involved previously. 

These rifts will never heal and the 'pyramid ' will long term due to the nature of scottish never really come to full fruition. 

All in all a truly sad set of affairs an idea that was mean to push Scottish football in non league football on has well and truly smashed it to pieces with mistrust,  bitterness that will never leave very much mirroring the spfl top four leagues. 

These divides will now never heal from an officials and fans point of view. 

Your a glass half empty type of guy aren't you? I have a little more faith. When clubs realise they are part of a well organised, structured and progressive set up they will thrive. The supporters will buy into it and the whole game below the SPFL will kick on. 

[Marten]

3 minutes ago, traffordab said:

What will also never be forgotten will be the way a handful of spiteful individuals involved with clubs either directly or indirectly have acted on forums like this attacking the junior game and people involved over and over for years . 

What will never be accepted is these people appearing out of nowhere running our historic junior clubs that should be and will be left to those involved previously. 

These rifts are here forever and the 'pyramid ' will long term due to the nature of scottish never really come to full fruition. 

All in all a truly sad set of affairs an idea that was mean to push Scottish football in non league football on has well and truly smashed it to pieces with mistrust,  bitterness that will never leave very much mirroring the spfl top four leagues. 

These divides will now never heal from an officials and fans point of view. 

Really? Yes, everything that has gone on, regardless from which side you look at it, resulted in divides and bitterness amongst certain people. But will it never heal? I doubt that, amongst officials time will heal a lot of wounds once these debates are settled. And most fans of junior clubs are fans of a club, not a grade. Personally, I just want to watch my local football club. Whether we are in the ERJFA north, a Tayside senior league, Lowland League, Highland League or a "Midland League" with a number of clubs currently in the EoS won't make a difference to me, I'd still watch and support my local club. The vast majority of fans of junior cup will think like that except for some of the most fanatic "pro-junior" ones.

[Burnieman]

18 minutes ago, traffordab said:

What will also never be forgotten will be the way a handful of spiteful individuals involved with clubs either directly or indirectly have acted on forums like this attacking the junior game and people involved over and over for years . 

What will never be accepted is these people appearing out of nowhere running our historic junior clubs that should be and will be left to those involved previously. 

These rifts are here forever and the 'pyramid ' will long term due to the nature of scottish never really come to full fruition. 

All in all a truly sad set of affairs an idea that was mean to push scottish football in non league football on has well and truly smashed it to pieces with mistrust and bitterness that will never go away very much mirroring the spfl top four leagues. 

These divides will now never heal from an officials and fans point of view. 

Please bore off troll and stick to pretending you're a big Junior fan.  I'm surprised this ID has lasted so long this time.

the Bairns57, cherrywhite, Holstein, Caliy, Curzonmid and now traffordab.  Attention seeking World Champion.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Burnieman

[Bad Wolf]

21 minutes ago, traffordab said:

What will also never be forgotten will be the way a handful of spiteful individuals involved with clubs either directly or indirectly have acted on forums like this attacking the junior game and people involved over and over for years . 

What will never be accepted is these people appearing out of nowhere running our historic junior clubs that should be and will be left to those involved previously. 

These rifts are here forever and the 'pyramid ' will long term due to the nature of scottish never really come to full fruition. 

All in all a truly sad set of affairs an idea that was mean to push scottish football in non league football on has well and truly smashed it to pieces with mistrust and bitterness that will never go away very much mirroring the spfl top four leagues. 

These divides will now never heal from an officials and fans point of view. 

TAJ found. ^

[glensmad]

What will also never be forgotten will be the way a handful of spiteful individuals involved with clubs either directly or indirectly have acted on forums like this attacking the junior game and people involved over and over for years . 
What will never be accepted is these people appearing out of nowhere running our historic junior clubs that should be and will be left to those involved previously. 
These rifts are here forever and the 'pyramid ' will long term due to the nature of scottish never really come to full fruition. 
All in all a truly sad set of affairs an idea that was mean to push scottish football in non league football on has well and truly smashed it to pieces with mistrust and bitterness that will never go away very much mirroring the spfl top four leagues. 
These divides will now never heal from an officials and fans point of view. 

[emoji1751][emoji849][emoji23]

[welshbairn]

6 hours ago, traffordab said:

What will also never be forgotten will be the way a handful of spiteful individuals involved with clubs either directly or indirectly have acted on forums like this attacking the junior game and people involved over and over for years . 

What will never be accepted is these people appearing out of nowhere running our historic junior clubs that should be and will be left to those involved previously. 

These rifts are here forever and the 'pyramid ' will long term due to the nature of scottish never really come to full fruition. 

All in all a truly sad set of affairs an idea that was mean to push scottish football in non league football on has well and truly smashed it to pieces with mistrust and bitterness that will never go away very much mirroring the spfl top four leagues. 

These divides will now never heal from an officials and fans point of view. 

A handful of random posters on a football forum killed off a tradition that has thrived since ancient times? Should have fixed your anchor more firmly mate, sand drifts with the times, sometimes it's better to move with it though.