An Idiot's Guide to the West of Scotland Football League?!

[AsimButtHitsASix]

The only reason I can see WoSFL teams being allowed to retain Junior affiliation (and non/ex junior teams being allowed to apply whilst remaining outside the Juniors Leagues) is to keep the Junior Cup going as this is, surely, the only thing the SJFA have left? They're hoping to make the Junior Cup a nationwide non-league tournament and I think they'll be doing all they can to make it appeal to everyone. Good luck to them to be honest. If they are going to make it a competition that supersedes the SCC and gets the HL interested and all the other barriers they face that means they've
A: Managed to get some decent sponsorship and prize money
B: Found a way to publicise it better than they are currently
C: Found a way to make it fit in the football calendar rather than having the football calendar fit around the cup.

It will be a near impossible task but if they do manage it then it'll be to the benefit of the non-league game. But so would every council area in Scotland discovering huge oil deposits and investing it in their local clubs. Neither will come.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

The only reason I can see WoSFL teams being allowed to retain Junior affiliation (and non/ex junior teams being allowed to apply whilst remaining outside the Juniors Leagues) is to keep the Junior Cup going as this is, surely, the only thing the SJFA have left? They're hoping to make the Junior Cup a nationwide non-league tournament and I think they'll be doing all they can to make it appeal to everyone. Good luck to them to be honest. If they are going to make it a competition that supersedes the SCC and gets the HL interested and all the other barriers they face that means they've
A: Managed to get some decent sponsorship and prize money
B: Found a way to publicise it better than they are currently
Found a way to make it fit in the football calendar rather than having the football calendar fit around the cup.

It will be a near impossible task but if they do manage it then it'll be to the benefit of the non-league game. But so would every council area in Scotland discovering huge oil deposits and investing it in their local clubs. Neither will come.

Except they are not doing that. If they were they would of let everyone have membership even if they're not in a Junior league. They limited their rule change to just clubs that moved to the WoSFL.

They're only making it appeal to those clubs that were already in their membership and believe in the junior grade. 53 West of Scotland clubs. 30 to possibly 29 East Region clubs if Livingston United also leave. 32 to 33 North Region clubs if Rothie Rovers get accepted.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Just now, FairWeatherFan said:

Except they are not doing that. If they were they would of let everyone have membership even if they're not in a Junior league. They limited their rule change to just clubs that moved to the WoSFL.

They're only making it appeal to those clubs that were already in their membership and believe in the junior grade. 53 West of Scotland clubs. 30 to possibly 29 East Region clubs if Livingston United also leave. 32 to 33 North Region clubs if Rothie Rovers get accepted.

We'll see how it pans out. With the West gone, North looking like it's leaving and a trickle still leaving the East they'll be doing everything they can to keep the Junior Cup alive otherwise they wont have a job.

[glensmad]

...they'll be doing everything they can to keep the Junior Cup alive otherwise they wont have a job.

Nail hit firmly on the head. [emoji106]

[Ginaro]

13 hours ago, Shannon said:

However one major thing needs to be sorted with 50/50 or 60/40 gate receipts split for all rounds in the cup as you could get to semi final and because you have all away games you lose money significantly. Every team will want home games especially at this difficult time cup gates with potential travelling for teams of 50-150 miles split gates should be done so not complete luck of the draw whether you lose or make money in this cup. The Junior Cup is not perfect but you do have split gates. The home team taking full gate seems completely unfair and does need amended asap in my opinion.

If you get to Scottish Junior Cup semi final you will make a very significant amount of money plus in West of Scotland the Junior Cup does still hold far more prestige over a South of Scotland Challenge Cup that has only been going for 13 years and most current West of Scotland teams fans won't even know was a competition until the last few months or even until next season so teams 'supporters' / big game followers won't come out in as big a numbers for a final or semi final of South of Scotland Challenge Cup as they would a Scottish Junior Cup Final or Semi Final. So yeah it could become the premier non league trophy but West teams may well keep their eggs in both baskets for the moment.

It's not perfect but will be an exciting competition once we get going and looking forward to hopefully playing some teams from South and East we haven't played for many years if at all but gate receipts for cup games should always be halved as much as possible in my personal opinion as gives away teams much more incentive to encourage their supporters to travel / put on buses and gets more people through the gates in the end.

AFAIK none of the non-league cup competitions have split gates. So if west clubs want split gates they need speak to the three other parties involved with the South Challenge Cup to get it changed. However the ex-Juniors in the East didn't vote to change the EOS rules for this season when they first had the chance, so it can't have been that big a deal to them.

The Junior Cup has its issues with the travel expenses coming out of a guarantee, so for long journeys to places with a low attendance (e.g. Beith going to Aberdeen twice this season) the away club don't get enough to cover their bus and the home club could be left with very little from the gate.

In the South Challenge Cup away clubs automatically get travel money of £150+ for over 50 miles, so Beith going to St Andrews would get £200 and the home side would keep the gate minus referee costs.

Neither system is perfect, so something in the middle needs to be worked out if west clubs want to propose it. We're more likely to get local derbies and fewer longer trips in the South Challenge Cup so you need a system which covers travel expenses, encourages away fans, while still allowing home clubs keep a decent chunk of the gate.

[FairWeatherFan]

41 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

AFAIK none of the non-league cup competitions have split gates. So if west clubs want split gates they need speak to the three other parties involved with the South Challenge Cup to get it changed. However the ex-Juniors in the East didn't vote to change the EOS rules for this season when they first had the chance, so it can't have been that big a deal to them.

The Junior Cup has its issues with the travel expenses coming out of a guarantee, so for long journeys to places with a low attendance (e.g. Beith going to Aberdeen twice this season) the away club don't get enough to cover their bus and the home club could be left with very little from the gate.

In the South Challenge Cup away clubs automatically get travel money of £150+ for over 50 miles, so Beith going to St Andrews would get £200 and the home side would keep the gate minus referee costs.

Neither system is perfect, so something in the middle needs to be worked out if west clubs want to propose it. We're more likely to get local derbies and fewer longer trips in the South Challenge Cup so you need a system which covers travel expenses, encourages away fans, while still allowing home clubs keep a decent chunk of the gate.

A reason why nobody proposed it is probably because for the majority they realise there's not a ton of money to be made from it.

Going by the guidance the home club is looking to pay around £105 for the officials (Ref fee of £45 plus one way travel up to £40, plus two assistants at a flat rate of £30 each). If we're keeping it to just a ref and two assistants

Bonnyton Thistle v. LTHV att. 20. Say a gate of £120 barely covers expenses and LTHV get £150 in travel.

Burntisland Shipyard v. Threave Rovers att. 69 say a gate of £414. Minus the £105 Burntisland get £314 and Threave Rovers get £300 in travel.

Bunch of other examples. Most attendances in the competition are under 100. Those figures are of course based on head counts. So even then you have no idea how many are committee or others for free/concessions as I used £6 as a flat fee. Which would make those gates even smaller. So its not like home clubs are rolling in cash off the back of the current system.

Like you say there might well be a happy medium between the two approaches. And there might well have to be a rethink since the competition has more than doubled. Which means the competition treasury might not be able to support the same kind of travel expenses.

[Ginaro]

23 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

A reason why nobody proposed it is probably because for the majority they realise there's not a ton of money to be made from it.

Going by the guidance the home club is looking to pay around £105 for the officials (Ref fee of £45 plus one way travel up to £40, plus two assistants at a flat rate of £30 each). If we're keeping it to just a ref and two assistants

Bonnyton Thistle v. LTHV att. 20. Say a gate of £120 barely covers expenses and LTHV get £150 in travel.

Burntisland Shipyard v. Threave Rovers att. 69 say a gate of £414. Minus the £105 Burntisland get £314 and Threave Rovers get £300 in travel.

Bunch of other examples. Most attendances in the competition are under 100. Those figures are of course based on head counts. So even then you have no idea how many are committee or others for free/concessions as I used £6 as a flat fee. Which would make those gates even smaller. So its not like home clubs are rolling in cash off the back of the current system.

Like you say there might well be a happy medium between the two approaches. And there might well have to be a rethink since the competition has more than doubled. Which means the competition treasury might not be able to support the same kind of travel expenses.

Yeah, think it's worked as crowds haven't been massive, though crowds will (eventually) go up across the board and then you add in 20-30 well supported clubs from the west. In contrast to those examples above, if you have a match between two clubs in their own league (<50 miles so no travel expenses) the home club will make money and the away club gets nothing.

Scottish Cup has a split gate after 20% is taken by the home club. SFA pay the officials and up to £600 guarantee; after Round 3 the guarantee is paid from the gate.

For <50 miles it could be a 60/40 or 65/35 split after the officials have been paid, so away fans are encouraged to come along knowing their club will get some money.

For >50 miles, the travel expenses could come from the gate money if it is big enough after being split (for 60/40 you'd need at least £375 once the officials are covered) - that would save the SCC committee some money paying expenses.

[Shannon]

Yeah the home club keeping 100% of gate money for South of Scotland Challenge Cup definitely needs to be looked asap before it can become a competition that clubs will want to get to later stages of instead of being a possible big expense if 3 or 4 away ties. Or if you get a good derby against away rivals eg Meadow v Buffs, Talbot v Cumnock and home club takes 100% of gate money minus officials then no enticement for away fans and away club to encourage their supporters to attend. So really needs looked at and now would be ideal time in my opinion.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, Shannon said:

Yeah the home club keeping 100% of gate money for South of Scotland Challenge Cup definitely needs to be looked asap before it can become a competition that clubs will want to get to later stages of instead of being a possible big expense if 3 or 4 away ties. Or if you get a good derby against away rivals eg Meadow v Buffs, Talbot v Cumnock and home club takes 100% of gate money minus officials then no enticement for away fans and away club to encourage their supporters to attend. So really needs looked at and now would be ideal time in my opinion.

Yeah definitely Shannon

I would suspect that's something that will be addressed at the general meeting of the WOS clubs and of the genral meeting of all clubs

[newcastle broon]

On 07/05/2020 at 12:08, Marten said:

They're also considerably better attended. It's always a difficult comparison, but I think most WOS Premier clubs would be roughly National League North/South standard.

South Shields are in the Northern Premier Division which is a league lower than the National league North. 

South Shields had a squad of around 23 players last season of which 15 were full time players. There will be other full time players in the Northern Premier league and thats not including the National league North. 

I think any comparisons with the WoS Premier are way off the mark. 

Edit:Attendance tables for National league North and Northern Premier league. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by newcastle broon

[Ginaro]

2 hours ago, Shannon said:

Yeah the home club keeping 100% of gate money for South of Scotland Challenge Cup definitely needs to be looked asap before it can become a competition that clubs will want to get to later stages of instead of being a possible big expense if 3 or 4 away ties. Or if you get a good derby against away rivals eg Meadow v Buffs, Talbot v Cumnock and home club takes 100% of gate money minus officials then no enticement for away fans and away club to encourage their supporters to attend. So really needs looked at and now would be ideal time in my opinion.

At least there won't be big expensive away ties like in the Junior Cup though, as clubs won't be going north of Perth.

[Shannon]

At least there won't be big expensive away ties like in the Junior Cup though, as clubs won't be going north of Perth.

Ayrshire to Berwick / Dunbar or vice versa ain't exactly cheap for clubs to be honest and why need to look at half gate receipts or 60/40 etc so away clubs are not in even more trouble financially from first 2/3 rounds of cup draws if they get unlucky draws.

[Tutankhamen]

 

2 hours ago, Ginaro said:

At least there won't be big expensive away ties like in the Junior Cup though, as clubs won't be going north of Perth.

Perth to Castle Douglas

Greenock to Berwick

Home team keeps the gate, sounds the business.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 hours ago, Shannon said:

When was just South and East of Scotland teams with minimal gates and 20/30 teams was far less travel it wasn't a problem and hopefully it does get brought up and thought about seriously due to increased travel and teams.

Until very recently the South Challenge Cup was regionised in the early rounds, because of the travel. Getting round clubs that hug the coastline of D&G through to the Scottish Borders/Edinburgh involves quite a bit of travel.

One of the reasons it changed to an open draw was because of the growth of the Lowland League distorting the relative competitive balance of what started as SoSFL v. EoSFL with a handful of amateurs. Plus you had Lowland League clubs used to the travel and more accepting of it for one off cup ties.

[Andy groundhopper]

The Sth Challenge Cup looks like being the new (junior) cup going by the team's involved, the clubs have moved now to a better level - so despite various opinions, the Junior Cup has finished. Great history and great clubs. Onwards and upwards, hopefully staying positive with all clubs surviving.

[traffordab]

2 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

The Sth Challenge Cup looks like being the new (junior) cup going by the team's involved, the clubs have moved now to a better level - so despite various opinions, the Junior Cup has finished. Great history and great clubs. Onwards and upwards, hopefully staying positive with all clubs surviving.

So an english based groundhopper from where bristol was it?

Telling scottish football fans it's finished and mentioning a better level.

Clueless tosh.  

Idiots guide thread right enough .

Edited May 16, 2020 by traffordab

[FairWeatherFan]

Just now, traffordab said:

So an english based groundhopper from where bristol was it?

Telling scottish football fans it's finished and mentioning a better level.

Clueless tosh.  

Idiots guide thread right enough .

Which means a lot coming from you.

[glensmad]

So an english based groundhopper from where bristol was it?
Telling scottish football fans it's finished and mentioning a better level.
Clueless tosh.  
Idiots guide thread right enough .

Have you not worked out yet that everybody's pointing and giggling at you every time you say anything ? [emoji23]

[Burnieman]

 

 

 

Yeah the home club keeping 100% of gate money for South of Scotland Challenge Cup definitely needs to be looked asap before it can become a competition that clubs will want to get to later stages of instead of being a possible big expense if 3 or 4 away ties. Or if you get a good derby against away rivals eg Meadow v Buffs, Talbot v Cumnock and home club takes 100% of gate money minus officials then no enticement for away fans and away club to encourage their supporters to attend. So really needs looked at and now would be ideal time in my opinion.

 

Are you saying therefore that there is no incentive for away fans to attend league games then in that case? I don't buy that argument, and what we need to be careful with is this turning into another Junior Cup situation where potentially both the home and away clubs lose money from the game.

 

The LL, EoS and SoS seem to be happy with the current rules, although as ever, if a proposal is submitted that clubs are happy with then the rule can change.

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

24 minutes ago, traffordab said:

So an english based groundhopper from where bristol was it?

Telling scottish football fans it's finished and mentioning a better level.

Clueless tosh.  

Idiots guide thread right enough .

I love this guy, I think he's funny as feck

delusional, hmmmm, but I will say even the die hards of "saving the junior grade" don't think to highly of him and I'm sure most would want him to stop because of the harm he does.
He is typically the type of reason junior football is where it is today, and we all know where that is, disappearing fast