A Miracle If Next Season Even Happens

[Cheggers04]

If I was a team in 2A or 2B then I'd be crying out for a reconstruction.

Why would anyone want to play in a league with 9 or 10 teams then have to play each other 3 times and possibly throw in a made up cup for extra games so your season doesn't finish in February?

The AAFA have followed the guidance from sfa/safa all the way through the pandemic with the exception of proposing a premier division with 11 teams in it (which has never been done before and was always made clear at previous formation meetings that the premier had to have 12 teams, no more, no less).

You cannot just say that's it the season is finished and you all paid money and played for nothing to then be punished the next season by suspensions carried over and no relegation/promotions from a season that apparently "doesn't count".

The association need to do the honourable thing and agree to a reconstruction or go back to the setup of 12-12-10-10 and award promotion and relegation places based on a points per game average for the season just played.

If it's good enough for the top league in scotland then it's good enough for amateur football.

Changing the constitution for one season so that the premier has 11 teams next year is the cowards way out

Hearing there is somewhat of a standoff between the 4/5 " hard done" by clubsin ayrshire and the league. They are demanding reconstruction for the season ahead. Are the league taking the easy way out?

I think it's the fairest way personally but can see the frustration from some and the reasons why.

What are other associations doing in the amatuer game?

[eyeswideopen15]

who do u suggest should come up if its " null and void " and kept 12-12-9-9.

I agree there should be 12 but I also dont think teams should be awarded for playing half their season. Nor teams relegated with plenty in the tank to change things.

I do not for a minute think there should be a 14 team premier league. All the major leagues in the Amateur games is 12 maximum for a reason

Cowards way out with only 11 teams???? 100% agree.

If I was a team in 2A or 2B then I'd be crying out for a reconstruction.

Why would anyone want to play in a league with 9 or 10 teams then have to play each other 3 times and possibly throw in a made up cup for extra games so your season doesn't finish in February?

The AAFA have followed the guidance from sfa/safa all the way through the pandemic with the exception of proposing a premier division with 11 teams in it (which has never been done before and was always made clear at previous formation meetings that the premier had to have 12 teams, no more, no less).

You cannot just say that's it the season is finished and you all paid money and played for nothing to then be punished the next season by suspensions carried over and no relegation/promotions from a season that apparently "doesn't count".

The association need to do the honourable thing and agree to a reconstruction or go back to the setup of 12-12-10-10 and award promotion and relegation places based on a points per game average for the season just played.

If it's good enough for the top league in scotland then it's good enough for amateur football.

Changing the constitution for one season so that the premier has 11 teams next year is the cowards way out

[Cheggers04]

You'll never please everyone but in my opinion I would reconstruct the leagues and award places based on a points by game average. I wouldn't go as far as awarding someone a league trophy but as I said, if it's good enough for the top division in Scotland to be finalised by a points per game average then why can't they do it with amateur?

The biggest mistake was the SAFA not telling each association what to do with their respective leagues.

They were quick enough to tell all clubs that they cant train etc but they wouldn't make the decision on how leagues should finish?

It should be uniformed across the country and fed down from the top to the bottom. What's the point in having a governing body who wont make the difficult decisions and have just passed the buck onto the associations to do as they please.

The SSMAFL has 16 teams in its premier division so clearly it works.

There is two local cups for all ayrshire clubs or 3 if you count the Donsport. Is there really a need for all of that?

There is an argument that with 14 teams in the premier league would be too many league games and run the risk of seasons still being played in june. Why is that an issue? Surely that's the price u pay for being successful and putting together a cup run.

Last couple of seasons you've had teams not playing for 2-3 weeks when they've only 2-3 league games left.

Another question I would ask is why cant ayrshire produce a fixture list more than a week in advance? Junior clubs and boys clubs have their fixtures 3 months in advance then if a cup competition comes into play then they take priority.

Btw the match sec has done a fantastic job over the years, not saying anything bad against him but I do feel that fixtures could be laid out for 4-6 games at a time minimum.

who do u suggest should come up if its " null and void " and kept 12-12-9-9.

I agree there should be 12 but I also dont think teams should be awarded for playing half their season. Nor teams relegated with plenty in the tank to change things.

I do not for a minute think there should be a 14 team premier league. All the major leagues in the Amateur games is 12 maximum for a reason

Cowards way out with only 11 teams???? 100% agree.

[eyeswideopen15]

Mate ur too clued up for me [emoji1787][emoji1787].

I personally dont like points per game tho for this level. Teams haven't played the same level.of fixtures as other is you know what I mean some playing top of the league yeoce and other not at all.

I 1000000% agree tho that the sfa should have instructed the sjfa and the safa what was happening or at a minimum the sjfa and safa should have told all their regions what was happening.

The cups tbf give other teams a chance of silver wear who would have no chance at all in their league so keeps teams competitive for longer.

I think as long as you have free weeks available u cant really produce fixture too far in advance

You'll never please everyone but in my opinion I would reconstruct the leagues and award places based on a points by game average. I wouldn't go as far as awarding someone a league trophy but as I said, if it's good enough for the top division in Scotland to be finalised by a points per game average then why can't they do it with amateur?

The biggest mistake was the SAFA not telling each association what to do with their respective leagues.

They were quick enough to tell all clubs that they cant train etc but they wouldn't make the decision on how leagues should finish?

It should be uniformed across the country and fed down from the top to the bottom. What's the point in having a governing body who wont make the difficult decisions and have just passed the buck onto the associations to do as they please.

The SSMAFL has 16 teams in its premier division so clearly it works.

There is two local cups for all ayrshire clubs or 3 if you count the Donsport. Is there really a need for all of that?

There is an argument that with 14 teams in the premier league would be too many league games and run the risk of seasons still being played in june. Why is that an issue? Surely that's the price u pay for being successful and putting together a cup run.

Last couple of seasons you've had teams not playing for 2-3 weeks when they've only 2-3 league games left.

Another question I would ask is why cant ayrshire produce a fixture list more than a week in advance? Junior clubs and boys clubs have their fixtures 3 months in advance then if a cup competition comes into play then they take priority.

Btw the match sec has done a fantastic job over the years, not saying anything bad against him but I do feel that fixtures could be laid out for 4-6 games at a time minimum.

[Cheggers04]

I try my best mate [emoji1787][emoji1787]

The premier division of the caley league also has 14 teams in it and it has some of the best ams teams about . Can definitely work with that number no problem.

Ayrshire clubs have been asked to put forward proposals by Thursday a think it is so will be interesting to see if anything comes across and also if the league committee actually let the member clubs vote on it.

In my opinion I think it's only fair the member clubs get a say in their own future, end of the day they're the ones paying the membership fees

Mate ur too clued up for me [emoji1787][emoji1787].

I personally dont like points per game tho for this level. Teams haven't played the same level.of fixtures as other is you know what I mean some playing top of the league yeoce and other not at all.

I 1000000% agree tho that the sfa should have instructed the sjfa and the safa what was happening or at a minimum the sjfa and safa should have told all their regions what was happening.

The cups tbf give other teams a chance of silver wear who would have no chance at all in their league so keeps teams competitive for longer.

I think as long as you have free weeks available u cant really produce fixture too far in advance

[eyeswideopen15]

I'm playing devils advocate here. Say the 14 team prem was worth a try and this season was null and void.

The same 3 teams would actually be promoted anyway from the last completed season.

Nearly all the same teams from the season before would be promoted from the 2nd to the 1st. Other than Mauchline.

Is there more sporting integrity in that or less.

Again I'm not saying that's the way to go. Just putting it out there.

Cheggars do u think no relegation this season would be fair?

If u were restructuring to 14 in the top 2 leagues would you still relegate meaning 4 teams coming up or no relegation meaning 3 to the prem and 5 coming up to the first with no relegation or 7 with relegation

I try my best mate [emoji1787][emoji1787]

The premier division of the caley league also has 14 teams in it and it has some of the best ams teams about . Can definitely work with that number no problem.

Ayrshire clubs have been asked to put forward proposals by Thursday a think it is so will be interesting to see if anything comes across and also if the league committee actually let the member clubs vote on it.

In my opinion I think it's only fair the member clubs get a say in their own future, end of the day they're the ones paying the membership fees

[Cheggers04]

If it was 14 in the premier then I'd probably put 3 up but then a decision has to be made on 2A-2B how you get the 5th team outta that.

For me the current league proposal doesn't work, as I said earlier I think it's an easy out so if they didnt want a full reconstruction then the only fair way I could see it is 12-12-10-10 and you relegate and promote based on a ppg average from what the leagues look like now on the website

I'm playing devils advocate here. Say the 14 team prem was worth a try and this season was null and void.

The same 3 teams would actually be promoted anyway from the last completed season.

Nearly all the same teams from the season before would be promoted from the 2nd to the 1st. Other than Mauchline.

Is there more sporting integrity in that or less.

Again I'm not saying that's the way to go. Just putting it out there.

Cheggars do u think no relegation this season would be fair?

If u were restructuring to 14 in the top 2 leagues would you still relegate meaning 4 teams coming up or no relegation meaning 3 to the prem and 5 coming up to the first with no relegation or 7 with relegation

[Graham3179]

You'll never please everyone but in my opinion I would reconstruct the leagues and award places based on a points by game average. I wouldn't go as far as awarding someone a league trophy but as I said, if it's good enough for the top division in Scotland to be finalised by a points per game average then why can't they do it with amateur?

The biggest mistake was the SAFA not telling each association what to do with their respective leagues.

They were quick enough to tell all clubs that they cant train etc but they wouldn't make the decision on how leagues should finish?

It should be uniformed across the country and fed down from the top to the bottom. What's the point in having a governing body who wont make the difficult decisions and have just passed the buck onto the associations to do as they please.

The SSMAFL has 16 teams in its premier division so clearly it works.

There is two local cups for all ayrshire clubs or 3 if you count the Donsport. Is there really a need for all of that?

There is an argument that with 14 teams in the premier league would be too many league games and run the risk of seasons still being played in june. Why is that an issue? Surely that's the price u pay for being successful and putting together a cup run.

Last couple of seasons you've had teams not playing for 2-3 weeks when they've only 2-3 league games left.

Another question I would ask is why cant ayrshire produce a fixture list more than a week in advance? Junior clubs and boys clubs have their fixtures 3 months in advance then if a cup competition comes into play then they take priority.

Btw the match sec has done a fantastic job over the years, not saying anything bad against him but I do feel that fixtures could be laid out for 4-6 games at a time minimum.

A couple of points on this I can respond to.

The SAFA didn’t tell teams they couldn’t train, the Scottish Government did. And they continue to do so.

The SSMAFL only have 16 in their Premier League for this year coming, they don’t know what their season will look like yet. I think they finished season 2018/19 with 13 teams in their Premier League.

All matches must be played before the SAFA AGM which is in June, as per the Constitution & Rules. You need to request an extension to play after this, but ideally games should be completed before it.

The reason teams don’t play for 2-3 weeks while waiting to play their last 2-3 fixtures is because they’re waiting their turn to play the team having a successful season, so this would get worse if that team plays well into June. The price to pay for having a good cup run also affects the other teams you still have to play.

Ayrshire can’t produce a league fixture more than a week in advance for a number of reasons; clubs can apply for free weeks during the season with 2 weeks notice (this also means if they didn’t fancy one of the fixtures they were given they could get a free week and avoid it), Scottish and West cup fixtures take precedence and can change due to postponements or replays, several clubs play at the same venue so changing one fixture could mean having to change several fixtures, changing one fixture will mean changing several depending on who you’ve already played, cup draws are done during the season rather than all at once so we don’t know what the cup ties are until the draw is made.

This would all mean the Match Secretary would be re-doing work and re-issuing fixtures every week. It’s already a big job and this would make it 4 or 5 times harder / worse. The benefit of getting a fixture 3 or 4 weeks in advance is only a benefit if that fixture doesn’t change 3 times, which it could.
Issuing weeks of fixtures is only really possible at the start of the season before the cups start, which we have done for the past few years.

[Cheggers04]

Thanks for the update and clarification Graham.

Can I ask if any proposals put forward by clubs are presented to member clubs to vote on?

Or is it a case of the executive decide what they like and what works then put it to a vote from the clubs?

Regardless of associations trying out larger numbers in a league for a season or not, they're still willing to try it out.

The AAFA proposal of 11-12-10-10 is just cop out tbh. Its basically saying this season didnt happen but you're not getting your membership fees from last season back and any suspensions will carry over to the 20-21 season. It also only suits the teams who are sitting in a relegation position. Fair enough you cant award titles etc and I totally agree with that but you cant say the season basically hasn't happened but still uphold suspensions and not refund membership fees. Whatever way you word it, that's what's happened if you don't look at a reconstruction

A couple of points on this I can respond to.

The SAFA didn’t tell teams they couldn’t train, the Scottish Government did. And they continue to do so.

The SSMAFL only have 16 in their Premier League for this year coming, they don’t know what their season will look like yet. I think they finished season 2018/19 with 13 teams in their Premier League.

All matches must be played before the SAFA AGM which is in June, as per the Constitution & Rules. You need to request an extension to play after this, but ideally games should be completed before it.

The reason teams don’t play for 2-3 weeks while waiting to play their last 2-3 fixtures is because they’re waiting their turn to play the team having a successful season, so this would get worse if that team plays well into June. The price to pay for having a good cup run also affects the other teams you still have to play.

Ayrshire can’t produce a league fixture more than a week in advance for a number of reasons; clubs can apply for free weeks during the season with 2 weeks notice (this also means if they didn’t fancy one of the fixtures they were given they could get a free week and avoid it), Scottish and West cup fixtures take precedence and can change due to postponements or replays, several clubs play at the same venue so changing one fixture could mean having to change several fixtures, changing one fixture will mean changing several depending on who you’ve already played, cup draws are done during the season rather than all at once so we don’t know what the cup ties are until the draw is made.

This would all mean the Match Secretary would be re-doing work and re-issuing fixtures every week. It’s already a big job and this would make it 4 or 5 times harder / worse. The benefit of getting a fixture 3 or 4 weeks in advance is only a benefit if that fixture doesn’t change 3 times, which it could.
Issuing weeks of fixtures is only really possible at the start of the season before the cups start, which we have done for the past few years.

[Homemadesoup]

What chance has the grass roots game starting shortly when the championship has just voted to start there season in October.

I think were looking at next year now

[eyeswideopen15]

Graham you have mentioned about the leagues needing to be completed by the safa AGM. Is that the same "this season"

What I mean is that did the SAFA give permission for associations to try and complete their leagues whenever its deemed safe or were they to be stopped and the associations decide how best to award places etc.

In theory, if the government allowed grassroots to get back to playing in Jan/ Feb, would the SAFA allow clubs to finish the 19/20 season then.

I appreciate it's almost impossible to say if it would work with squads etc. I'm just asking if it's actually been specified if its allowed.

A couple of points on this I can respond to.

The SAFA didn’t tell teams they couldn’t train, the Scottish Government did. And they continue to do so.

The SSMAFL only have 16 in their Premier League for this year coming, they don’t know what their season will look like yet. I think they finished season 2018/19 with 13 teams in their Premier League.

All matches must be played before the SAFA AGM which is in June, as per the Constitution & Rules. You need to request an extension to play after this, but ideally games should be completed before it.

The reason teams don’t play for 2-3 weeks while waiting to play their last 2-3 fixtures is because they’re waiting their turn to play the team having a successful season, so this would get worse if that team plays well into June. The price to pay for having a good cup run also affects the other teams you still have to play.

Ayrshire can’t produce a league fixture more than a week in advance for a number of reasons; clubs can apply for free weeks during the season with 2 weeks notice (this also means if they didn’t fancy one of the fixtures they were given they could get a free week and avoid it), Scottish and West cup fixtures take precedence and can change due to postponements or replays, several clubs play at the same venue so changing one fixture could mean having to change several fixtures, changing one fixture will mean changing several depending on who you’ve already played, cup draws are done during the season rather than all at once so we don’t know what the cup ties are until the draw is made.

This would all mean the Match Secretary would be re-doing work and re-issuing fixtures every week. It’s already a big job and this would make it 4 or 5 times harder / worse. The benefit of getting a fixture 3 or 4 weeks in advance is only a benefit if that fixture doesn’t change 3 times, which it could.
Issuing weeks of fixtures is only really possible at the start of the season before the cups start, which we have done for the past few years.

[Graham3179]

Graham you have mentioned about the leagues needing to be completed by the safa AGM. Is that the same "this season"

What I mean is that did the SAFA give permission for associations to try and complete their leagues whenever its deemed safe or were they to be stopped and the associations decide how best to award places etc.

In theory, if the government allowed grassroots to get back to playing in Jan/ Feb, would the SAFA allow clubs to finish the 19/20 season then.

I appreciate it's almost impossible to say if it would work with squads etc. I'm just asking if it's actually been specified if its allowed.

It’s in the Constitution and Rules so it’s the same every season. It’s up to the individual leagues to ask for an extension.

[Graham3179]

Thanks for the update and clarification Graham.

Can I ask if any proposals put forward by clubs are presented to member clubs to vote on?

Or is it a case of the executive decide what they like and what works then put it to a vote from the clubs?

Regardless of associations trying out larger numbers in a league for a season or not, they're still willing to try it out.

The AAFA proposal of 11-12-10-10 is just cop out tbh. Its basically saying this season didnt happen but you're not getting your membership fees from last season back and any suspensions will carry over to the 20-21 season. It also only suits the teams who are sitting in a relegation position. Fair enough you cant award titles etc and I totally agree with that but you cant say the season basically hasn't happened but still uphold suspensions and not refund membership fees. Whatever way you word it, that's what's happened if you don't look at a reconstruction

The rules are decided by the clubs at the AGM, same as every year.

The SSMAFL have increased their league to 16 for one season based on the current situation, but they might end up only playing each other once, or scrapping a cup or two.

So we could put the leagues up to 18 (for example) for one season, and then have 8 clubs relegated at the end of the season to get back to 12, when you include 2 being promoted??
We could increase the number of teams in a league and scrap a cup (as the Caledonian league have done), again that’s up to the clubs to decide.
Or we could have one big league of 43 and play each other once, with no cups.

You’re perfectly entitled to your opinion about the decision of the committee, but as you would expect I disagree completely. You say it’s right not to award titles but clubs should be promoted, where’s the logic in that?

Do you think that it’s right to look at reconstruction during the current period of massive uncertainty, would it not be better to wait until the numbers are known and everyone knows what they’re playing for?

[eyeswideopen15]

I have to say Graham the last paragraph I completely agree with. Clubs are offered the opportunity to suggest a reconstruction plan every season. Almost always clubs never suggest anything other that tweaking the bottom division.

Now all a sudden the top division and even the first should be increased. I'll wager a bet that all these reconstruction ideas will be from Clubs that are acting out of self interest.

An Ardeer or Beith are unlikely to make proposals. It will be clubs like Waverly, Irvine, mauchline, killie United etc. That's not a dig by any means. It's understandable that they feel hard done by but I dont see how increasing the top two divisions is suddenly in the best interest of Ayrshire football.

I'd personally keep the top two the same. Make one big 2nd division of 18 teams. Play everyone once then a top and bottom split. Play everyone once again. 25 games. Done

If only it was that easy.

The rules are decided by the clubs at the AGM, same as every year.

The SSMAFL have increased their league to 16 for one season based on the current situation, but they might end up only playing each other once, or scrapping a cup or two.

So we could put the leagues up to 18 (for example) for one season, and then have 8 clubs relegated at the end of the season to get back to 12, when you include 2 being promoted??
We could increase the number of teams in a league and scrap a cup (as the Caledonian league have done), again that’s up to the clubs to decide.
Or we could have one big league of 43 and play each other once, with no cups.

You’re perfectly entitled to your opinion about the decision of the committee, but as you would expect I disagree completely. You say it’s right not to award titles but clubs should be promoted, where’s the logic in that?

Do you think that it’s right to look at reconstruction during the current period of massive uncertainty, would it not be better to wait until the numbers are known and everyone knows what they’re playing for?

[Cheggers04]

Personally I think the committee do a great job and it's a thankless task at times because I know it's extremely hard to get members to join a committee in any sport so dont think for a minute I'm having a go at the executive... far from it actually!!

I do however think whilst the current climate provides extreme uncertainty, I also think it provides an opportunity to look at things as a whole and see if changes can be made to the current setup to make it better for all involved.

Teams fold each season for various reasons, probably the most obvious one is player commitment and for that reason alone I think you'd stand a better chance of keeping clubs in the association if they weren't playing in a league of 9 or 10 teams.

Say you're going for promotion and another team also in the hunt has 2 home games against you because you play each other 3 times, hows that fair? Luck of the draw I know but its hardly appealing in my opinion.

The main reason for any of my comments on this thread and directed at you since you commented is to find out if it's the executive who decide which proposals go to the floor or if all proposals go to the floor to be voted on by the member clubs.

The rules are decided by the clubs at the AGM, same as every year.

The SSMAFL have increased their league to 16 for one season based on the current situation, but they might end up only playing each other once, or scrapping a cup or two.

So we could put the leagues up to 18 (for example) for one season, and then have 8 clubs relegated at the end of the season to get back to 12, when you include 2 being promoted??
We could increase the number of teams in a league and scrap a cup (as the Caledonian league have done), again that’s up to the clubs to decide.
Or we could have one big league of 43 and play each other once, with no cups.

You’re perfectly entitled to your opinion about the decision of the committee, but as you would expect I disagree completely. You say it’s right not to award titles but clubs should be promoted, where’s the logic in that?

Do you think that it’s right to look at reconstruction during the current period of massive uncertainty, would it not be better to wait until the numbers are known and everyone knows what they’re playing for?

[Graham3179]

Personally I think the committee do a great job and it's a thankless task at times because I know it's extremely hard to get members to join a committee in any sport so dont think for a minute I'm having a go at the executive... far from it actually!!

I do however think whilst the current climate provides extreme uncertainty, I also think it provides an opportunity to look at things as a whole and see if changes can be made to the current setup to make it better for all involved.

Teams fold each season for various reasons, probably the most obvious one is player commitment and for that reason alone I think you'd stand a better chance of keeping clubs in the association if they weren't playing in a league of 9 or 10 teams.

Say you're going for promotion and another team also in the hunt has 2 home games against you because you play each other 3 times, hows that fair? Luck of the draw I know but its hardly appealing in my opinion.

The main reason for any of my comments on this thread and directed at you since you commented is to find out if it's the executive who decide which proposals go to the floor or if all proposals go to the floor to be voted on by the member clubs.

I didn’t think you were having a go, no need to worry about that. I’m more than happy for people to have a different opinion to me and share it, as I’m more than happy to give my opinion!

The decisions on league structure are made by the clubs, the executive would obviously put forward what they thought was the best option but it’s up to the clubs to decide.

My personal opinion is that the second divisions haven’t worked as well as we would have liked, but I also don’t think it’s as bad as some are suggesting. We proposed another, more radical structure at the time which was rejected. But I don’t think the numbers are right for a premier league and first division of 14 clubs, there’s simply not enough weeks in the season to complete the leagues, the numbers just don’t add up.

And as I’ve said, I don’t think the time is right to change given the huge amount of uncertainty, it would be far better to have a structure in mind for a year or two and work towards it in a logical manner, so teams know exactly what they are aiming for.

[Cheggers04]

I take it that it would be a no go for more of a summer based season?

I didn’t think you were having a go, no need to worry about that. I’m more than happy for people to have a different opinion to me and share it, as I’m more than happy to give my opinion!

The decisions on league structure are made by the clubs, the executive would obviously put forward what they thought was the best option but it’s up to the clubs to decide.

My personal opinion is that the second divisions haven’t worked as well as we would have liked, but I also don’t think it’s as bad as some are suggesting. We proposed another, more radical structure at the time which was rejected. But I don’t think the numbers are right for a premier league and first division of 14 clubs, there’s simply not enough weeks in the season to complete the leagues, the numbers just don’t add up.

And as I’ve said, I don’t think the time is right to change given the huge amount of uncertainty, it would be far better to have a structure in mind for a year or two and work towards it in a logical manner, so teams know exactly what they are aiming for.