Conference Call

[Sergeant Wilson]

13 hours ago, Lowland team said:

Can i ask as am relatively new to both the juniors and now the west of Scotland forum.why are so many people just plainly negative all the time to change its a new league so there will be teething glitches in the first season whenever that is.

 

1 hour ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Quite right, arguing about something that hasn't happened yet. 

Have either of you actually been to the West of Scotland? If pointless arguing was a sport we'd be world champions.

[mcruic]

I do think the latest announcement is about as fair as is possible to all clubs.

Someone said it was unfair to Drumchapel United and St. Cadoc's - I'm not sure if they were being sarcastic (and what about Glasgow University)?

*Note: what I say below is conditional on next season actually happening.

POSITIVES
1) - The top level junior teams (16) from last season preserve their status, earned on merit.
2) - The 3 clubs from Level 2 in the juniors most likely to have won promotion are promoted to Tier 6. 
3) - Bonnyton Thistle preserve their Tier 6 status
4) - All other clubs are at or above the level they were already at (3 conferences at level 2, with the chance to get into Level 1 after 1 year).  Bottom 3 teams at Level 2 are offered a reprieve from relegation, and will remain notionally at Level 2 next season.

NEGATIVES
What the smaller clubs (Levels 2-4 in West Juniors + 3 new amateur teams) are missing:
1) - In 4 balanced conferences - 1 season with a maximum of 4 top level junior teams in their league - so, essentially, 4 potentially big crowds (but bear in mind - the 4 top division clubs in each division probably would have been selected using a serpentine system (1/8/9/16,  2/7/10/15,  3/6/11/14,  4/5/12/13) - so each conference would only have 2 "top top" clubs and 2 lower half premier clubs in it.  Note also, last season's Level 1 clubs in the West Juniors would be losing out on bigger crowds, as they'd have to play 12 or 13 non-Level 1 clubs in the conferences.
*I think this is what the "this is not what we signed up for" is about - but really, it would have been a "waste" of a season for many of the Top clubs, when the West Juniors has, technically, already decided the pecking order through the recent almost-completed season (and all other previous seasons leading to the current divisions).

What they are gaining
1) - Fast-tracking - the chance for Level 3 and 4 Junior clubs (and amateur clubs) to be promoted to the top flight in 1 season rather than 2 or 3 seasons.
2) - Level 3 and 4 junior clubs (and amateur clubs) get to play 4 current Level 2 junior clubs - so, 4 potentially "bigger" crowds than if they had stayed in the juniors.

What stays the same
1) - Potentially 3-up, 3-down - 20-team top league allows for more relegation places, which should ensure that the 3 conference winners are promoted.  Same as current setup in West Juniors (3-up, 3-down).
2) - After season 1 of the conferences, teams will probably end up at a similar level to what they would have been at anyway (somewhere between levels 2-4 of the juniors - i.e. somewhere between Tiers 7 and 9 of the seniors).

What they are losing
1) - Clubs at levels 2-4 potentially miss out on 3 or 4 big crowds for 1 season only (which they wouldn't have had if they had stayed in the juniors anyway).
 

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by mcruic
Clubs may miss out on a few big crowds, not "big crows"

[BANKIEBILL]

10 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I would love any club who wants to go back to go back now. Stop beating about the bush, act like men if they have balls and get back to the square box of the juniors.
no vision, no future, no progress. please tell them all to go and I guarantee most of them, most definitely the fans, if not all will feel like assess when the WOS is flourishing in a couple of years time.  (don't mind this being shoved back in my face years to come if I'm wrong but hey I do with my views on whats happening.)

Its the juniors fault, no question, they forced non vision teams to leave, saying there was no junior league next season, so get the juniors back up and go back and leave the ones who really want to progress and be excited at a higher standard of football.
 

Look there's obviously been a lot of soul-searching gone on over last few years. History means a lot in football and the Juniors ( as s grade ) have a long and colourful history. It's clear that some clubs were still catching breath from previous reconstruction efforts - moving reluctantly from Regions to West set-up and then to an all-in West. 

When your whole history as a club has been in one particular context - all the memories and glories past - it's no doubt hard to leave that behind. 

However the vast majority voted to engage with the pyramid a few years back and since then the progress has been glacial - with the feeling ( esp over last cpl of years ) that those heading up the Juniors effort - were not wholly behind joining the pyramid. That may be for mainly laudable reasons - ie looking out for the interests of all member clubs. What this did though was engender feelings of frustration and a split between clubs who perhaps saw the future of their club as in the pyramid - seeing Juniors as stifling growth and development. Others seeing their past and identity being eroded. This divide has not been fully addressed and the most recent attempts to retain West Region control of pyramid and the debacle of the conferences has done nothing to resolve this. 

Thing is there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. The move to the pyramid is happening and all of the bigger clubs want this. Due to apparent mishandling ( on various parts ) of the move over the last few years and the disparities of admin of Juniors - it's hard to see that Juniors could retain its structure intact as part of the pyramid. Even pyramid reluctant bigger clubs can see the benefits of engagement and the likely loss of advantage currently enjoyed ( Scottish Cup access ) for non-pyramid clubs - so they're going. Talk of retention of Junior structure would therefore be without the bigger clubs and it's hard to see how that's sustainable. 

What therefore needs to happen is proper engagement with all West clubs. Ensure there are no more "surprises" in store and emphasise that they are all valued as members. Many of these clubs will eventually move up the pyramid - supplanting those currently in top league. This should include support of the clubs currently in Premier ... 

We're in this for the long haul- if we ever get started again.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

34 minutes ago, mcruic said:

I do think the latest announcement is about as fair as is possible to all clubs.

Someone said it was unfair to Drumchapel United and St. Cadoc's - I'm not sure if they were being sarcastic (and what about Glasgow University)?

*Note: what I say below is conditional on next season actually happening.

POSITIVES
1) - The top level junior teams (16) from last season preserve their status, earned on merit.
2) - The 3 clubs from Level 2 in the juniors most likely to have won promotion are promoted to Tier 6. 
3) - Bonnyton Thistle preserve their Tier 6 status
4) - All other clubs are at or above the level they were already at (3 conferences at level 2, with the chance to get into Level 1 after 1 year).  Bottom 3 teams at Level 2 are offered a reprieve from relegation, and will remain notionally at Level 2 next season.

NEGATIVES
What the smaller clubs (Levels 2-4 in West Juniors + 3 new amateur teams) are missing:
1) - In 4 balanced conferences - 1 season with a maximum of 4 top level junior teams in their league - so, essentially, 4 potentially big crowds (but bear in mind - the 4 top division clubs in each division probably would have been selected using a serpentine system (1/8/9/16,  2/7/10/15,  3/6/11/14,  4/5/12/13) - so each conference would only have 2 "top top" clubs and 2 lower half premier clubs in it.
*I think this is what the "this is not what we signed up for" is about - but really, it would have been a "waste" of a season for many of the Top clubs, when the West Juniors has, technically, already decided the pecking order through the recent almost-completed season (and all other previous seasons leading to the current divisions).

What they are gaining
1) - Fast-tracking - the chance for Level 3 and 4 Junior clubs (and amateur clubs) to be promoted to the top flight in 1 season rather than 2 or 3 seasons.
2) - Level 3 and 4 junior clubs (and amateur clubs) get to play 4 current Level 2 junior clubs - so, 4 potentially "bigger" crowds than if they had stayed in the juniors.

What stays the same
1) - Potentially 3-up, 3-down - 20-team top league allows for more relegation places, which should ensure that the 3 conference winners are promoted.  Same as current setup in West Juniors (3-up, 3-down).
2) - After season 1 of the conferences, teams will probably end up at a similar level to what they would have been at anyway (somewhere between levels 2-4 of the juniors - i.e. somewhere between Tiers 7 and 9 of the seniors).

What they are losing
1) - Clubs at levels 2-4 potentially miss out on 3 or 4 big crows for 1 season only (which they wouldn't have had if they had stayed in the juniors anyway).
 

 

Excellent mcruic
Well scripted, thought out, clear and concise and the most important part you have stated in regards to nothing is certain in anything until this virus is finished and we can get crowds in.
you will still have moans though lolol

The only thing that will change is when teams in the WOS are licensed that means anyone who wins the top flight at tier 6 can then enter the play offs for promotion to the Lowland league at tier 5

 

QUESTION  FOLKS;  How many teams in the new WOS are licensed, I remember reading 2, is this correct and who ?
Also are any teams expect to be licensed within a year, obviously outwith this pandemic ?

Edited May 3, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Bestsinceslicebread]

17 minutes ago, BANKIEBILL said:

Look there's obviously been a lot of soul-searching gone on over last few years. History means a lot in football and the Juniors ( as s grade ) have a long and colourful history. It's clear that some clubs were still catching breath from previous reconstruction efforts - moving reluctantly from Regions to West set-up and then to an all-in West. 

When your whole history as a club has been in one particular context - all the memories and glories past - it's no doubt hard to leave that behind. 

However the vast majority voted to engage with the pyramid a few years back and since then the progress has been glacial - with the feeling ( esp over last cpl of years ) that those heading up the Juniors effort - were not wholly behind joining the pyramid. That may be for mainly laudable reasons - ie looking out for the interests of all member clubs. What this did though was engender feelings of frustration and a split between clubs who perhaps saw the future of their club as in the pyramid - seeing Juniors as stifling growth and development. Others seeing their past and identity being eroded. This divide has not been fully addressed and the most recent attempts to retain West Region control of pyramid and the debacle of the conferences has done nothing to resolve this. 

Thing is there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. The move to the pyramid is happening and all of the bigger clubs want this. Due to apparent mishandling ( on various parts ) of the move over the last few years and the disparities of admin of Juniors - it's hard to see that Juniors could retain its structure intact as part of the pyramid. Even pyramid reluctant bigger clubs can see the benefits of engagement and the likely loss of advantage currently enjoyed ( Scottish Cup access ) for non-pyramid clubs - so they're going. Talk of retention of Junior structure would therefore be without the bigger clubs and it's hard to see how that's sustainable. 

What therefore needs to happen is proper engagement with all West clubs. Ensure there are no more "surprises" in store and emphasise that they are all valued as members. Many of these clubs will eventually move up the pyramid - supplanting those currently in top league. This should include support of the clubs currently in Premier ... 

We're in this for the long haul- if we ever get started again.

yes 100% agree with this.

for me all the teams moving from the junior grade, not just in the West but in the East etc.. should never forget their history, this is what made them, this is what defined them and now they are progressing. Of course there will be resistance, they just have to look at it objectively nd understand all positives and negatives and mcruic in his post above has put most of those in perceptive

Edited May 3, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Lowland team]

11 hours ago, Tutankhamen said:

Glitches?

Is that what you think this is?

Well you tell me what you think it is.this glich has been taken out of the hands of these who were driving it forward.the s.f.a.have suddenly moved goal posts.think they're trying to do the best they can.theres always someone or some club going to be unhappy.but lets just see what happens.

[Tutankhamen]

4 minutes ago, Lowland team said:

Well you tell me what you think it is.this glich has been taken out of the hands of these who were driving it forward.the s.f.a.have suddenly moved goal posts.think they're trying to do the best they can.theres always someone or some club going to be unhappy.but lets just see what happens.

What exactly are you trying to justify here?

Sporting integrity?

[Lowland team]

24 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

yes 100% agree with this.

for me all the teams moving from the junior grade, not just in the West but in the East etc.. should never forget their history, this is what made them, this is what defined them and now they are progressing. Of course there will be resistance, they just have to look at it objectively nd understand all positives and negatives and mcruic in his post above has put most of those in perceptive

Your absolutely right.the wrjfa agreed to engage with pyramid.now that this has happened i personally think its a great move forward.

However i don't think that any club who move over should ever forget their long history"s and traditions these things should be highlighted and celebrated by each individual club.the fact that they've all moved together reinforces that these things will stay.its only a name ( junior league) that changes but the old rivals  will still be there for all to enjoy.most or all will surely keep the word junior in their name that surely must stay.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 minutes ago, Lowland team said:

Your absolutely right.the wrjfa agreed to engage with pyramid.now that this has happened i personally think its a great move forward.

However i don't think that any club who move over should ever forget their long history"s and traditions these things should be highlighted and celebrated by each individual club.the fact that they've all moved together reinforces that these things will stay.its only a name ( junior league) that changes but the old rivals  will still be there for all to enjoy.most or all will surely keep the word junior in their name that surely must stay.

Agree with everything you say except, the word junior. I'm fine with it but it doesn't NEED to stay>
Some clubs are losing their junior name, some aren't. In the East some have kept theirs, Camelon Juniors for example, and some have got rid of it but as you say, they also haven't forgotten their past history as a junior team and it should never be forgotten

[Lowland team]

6 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

What exactly are you trying to justify here?

Sporting integrity?

Am not trying to justify anything at all. The word sporting integrity covers a mass of things depending on your outlook.i just think that after coming so far then a massive shift from rod petrie and the s.f.a.( wonder why that happened) be rest assured it was nothing done by the lowland league.they are just trying to make the best of it they can.which yes will not please everyone.

[mcruic]

There's always someone going to be unhappy in any situation - if you told some in the West Juniors they'd be "as you were" next season, with no change, I bet you'd still get people swearing the goalposts had moved.

The current situation is like being offered a new shirt for free, having that offer withdrawn, then being given the offer to wash/iron your current shirt, as well as the chance to win yourself a new shirt in future.  The reaction is going in the huff and saying you like your dirty crumpled shirt and you don't like any of the new shirts anyway.  The current offer is still better than what was there before, but the waters are muddied because of an assumption that you already had the new shirt (which was never yours anyway).  Or something like that. 

*Note: dirty and crumpled are not used pejoratively - they reflect adherence to familiarity.

Edited May 3, 2020 by mcruic

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 minute ago, mcruic said:

There's always someone going to be unhappy in any situation - if you told some in the West Juniors they'd be "as you were" next season, with no change, I bet you'd still get people swearing the goalposts had moved.

The current situation is like being offered a new shirt for free, having that offer withdrawn, then being given the offer to wash/iron your current shirt, as well as the chance to win yourself a new shirt in future.  The reaction is going in the huff and saying you like your dirty crumpled shirt and you don't like any of the new shirts anyway.  The current offer is still better than what was there before, but the waters are muddied because of an assumption that you already had the new shirt (which was never yours anyway).  Or something like that. 

ffs mcruic see if I look out shirts later and try and work that out, I'm giving you a negative point  

[BANKIEBILL]

2 minutes ago, mcruic said:

There's always someone going to be unhappy in any situation - if you told some in the West Juniors they'd be "as you were" next season, with no change, I bet you'd still get people swearing the goalposts had moved.

The current situation is like being offered a new shirt for free, having that offer withdrawn, then being given the offer to wash/iron your current shirt, as well as the chance to win yourself a new shirt in future.  The reaction is going in the huff and saying you like your dirty crumpled shirt and you don't like any of the new shirts anyway.  The current offer is still better than what was there before, but the waters are muddied because of an assumption that you already had the new shirt (which was never yours anyway).  Or something like that. 7

*Note: dirty and crumpled are not used pejoratively - they reflect adherence to familiarity.

[mcruic]

2 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

ffs mcruic see if I look out shirts later and try and work that out, I'm giving you a negative point  

It's all these little things that help fill lockdown time.  I never even mentioned the missing buttons.

[Lowland team]

15 minutes ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Agree with everything you say except, the word junior. I'm fine with it but it doesn't NEED to stay>
Some clubs are losing their junior name, some aren't. In the East some have kept theirs, Camelon Juniors for example, and some have got rid of it but as you say, they also haven't forgotten their past history as a junior team and it should never be forgotten

I think you're wrong there!!! It should and has to be the clubs choice to keep or remove the word junior from their name.thats their identity to their fans old and new.the east clubs were under no pressure to change or keep the word junior.that should undoubtedly be the same for the west clubs.as i said their history must not and definitely will not be forgotten as each should club has many things to celebrate from their achievements through the years.

[mcruic]

A lot of the problem has been that there have been no "visuals".  So people are talking about hypothetical conferences and being put in them without knowing what that actually entails.  I've divvied up the teams based on last season's Points Per Game and put them into conferences using the serpentine system (to create leagues of equal strength).  At the top, I've presented what a 4-equal conferences model would look like, and at the bottom the currently proposed premier + 3 conferences below model.

At least if they were presented with something like this, clubs would be able to argue about how good or bad next season would be in either situation, and have a chance to look and see what types of club they'd be likely to face. 

In terms of "standards":
Level 1 Juniors: Much the same standard - perhaps slightly lower due to 4 extra teams
Level 2 Juniors: Lower standard (playing Level 3 and 4 teams)
Level 3 Juniors: Same standard - but with bigger variety in standard of opponents (Level 2 to Level 4).
Level 4 Juniors: Better standard (playing Level 2 and 3 teams)
Others: Better standard

So, I'd say if anyone had a gripe about the conferences, it might be the Level 2 (Championship) Juniors - but it's only for one season...

[Beenzon-Toste]

Am not trying to justify anything at all. The word sporting integrity covers a mass of things depending on your outlook.i just think that after coming so far then a massive shift from rod petrie and the s.f.a.( wonder why that happened) be rest assured it was nothing done by the lowland league.they are just trying to make the best of it they can.which yes will not please everyone.

What 'massive shift'?
Petrie said from the start not to bring conferences back to the SFA.
The LL ignored that and told the clubs that conferences will be accepted.
The LL denied that they would cherrypick, yet here we are.
The WRSJFA have been pilloried on various social media platforms with accusations of lying to the clubs, yet here we are.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

12 minutes ago, Lowland team said:

I think you're wrong there!!! It should and has to be the clubs choice to keep or remove the word junior from their name.thats their identity to their fans old and new.the east clubs were under no pressure to change or keep the word junior.that should undoubtedly be the same for the west clubs.as i said their history must not and definitely will not be forgotten as each should club has many things to celebrate from their achievements through the years.

Think you've picked me up wrong.
yip i100% t should be the clubs and fans choice and let them deiced to keep it or not 

[Lowland team]

1 hour ago, BANKIEBILL said:

Look there's obviously been a lot of soul-searching gone on over last few years. History means a lot in football and the Juniors ( as s grade ) have a long and colourful history. It's clear that some clubs were still catching breath from previous reconstruction efforts - moving reluctantly from Regions to West set-up and then to an all-in West. 

When your whole history as a club has been in one particular context - all the memories and glories past - it's no doubt hard to leave that behind. 

However the vast majority voted to engage with the pyramid a few years back and since then the progress has been glacial - with the feeling ( esp over last cpl of years ) that those heading up the Juniors effort - were not wholly behind joining the pyramid. That may be for mainly laudable reasons - ie looking out for the interests of all member clubs. What this did though was engender feelings of frustration and a split between clubs who perhaps saw the future of their club as in the pyramid - seeing Juniors as stifling growth and development. Others seeing their past and identity being eroded. This divide has not been fully addressed and the most recent attempts to retain West Region control of pyramid and the debacle of the conferences has done nothing to resolve this. 

Thing is there's no putting the genie back in the bottle. The move to the pyramid is happening and all of the bigger clubs want this. Due to apparent mishandling ( on various parts ) of the move over the last few years and the disparities of admin of Juniors - it's hard to see that Juniors could retain its structure intact as part of the pyramid. Even pyramid reluctant bigger clubs can see the benefits of engagement and the likely loss of advantage currently enjoyed ( Scottish Cup access ) for non-pyramid clubs - so they're going. Talk of retention of Junior structure would therefore be without the bigger clubs and it's hard to see how that's sustainable. 

What therefore needs to happen is proper engagement with all West clubs. Ensure there are no more "surprises" in store and emphasise that they are all valued as members. Many of these clubs will eventually move up the pyramid - supplanting those currently in top league. This should include support of the clubs currently in Premier ... 

We're in this for the long haul- if we ever get started again.

Thankfully a very good well thoght out post.i do think however the engagement part has been covered and undoubtedly a percentage of clubs moved as not to be left behind.i don't think the s.f.a.could spring anymore surprises.and can guarantee the lowland league dont have any to spring.given that once your own board is selected by your clubs you will be on your own to decide your own fate as a league and can spring your own surprises.for me who has no junior affiliation the negative in fighting is some what disappointing.you's really need to give it a try and see how it goes.after all the majority of your clubs voted to engage with the pyramid.some times thing dont always go to the best laid plans at the beginning its how it ends which is the most important thing just now.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

11 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

What 'massive shift'?
Petrie said from the start not to bring conferences back to the SFA.
The LL ignored that and told the clubs that conferences will be accepted.
The LL denied that they would cherrypick, yet here we are.
The WRSJFA have been pilloried on various social media platforms with accusations of lying to the clubs, yet here we are.

Well first of all the WRSJFA have been pillared on various social media platforms with accusations of lying to clubs, yet here we are.  We actually this is FACT
West region clubs were told at the junior meeting that Option  Z was backed by Lowland League and SPFL, and the five committee  people of different junior clubs who all told me this went with Option Z because of what they were told by junior committee member that night.  That was infact a lie, clear as day lie. The following day I spoke to two people involved with the Lowland League and SPFL and they said Definitely not.  There was never any chance that Option Z was on the table and that was even before I contacted the people to confirm. it was just common sense

Out of all this one thing I will say, to my detriment, I never thought for one minute that we would not have enough graded refs for the tier 6