Conference Call

[Bestsinceslicebread]

2 minutes ago, Beenzon-Toste said:

Please explain to me how the WRSJFA thought that lying about option Z would benefit them if they knew it was a lie from the outset. Why would they put it to the clubs if they knew that it couldn't possibly happen?
What could they gain?

 

lets explain it and why the lowland League wouldn't go for it and what the west region would gain

Option Z - the Lowland League is split into two divisions East and West, with additional LICENSED member clubs being admitted to make up the numbers.

Why would the Lowland want to spilt their league and have a west and an east as it would cause hassle regarding the playoff for a start with the highland league
The west region were wanting to come in and take charge of the west section, so obviously that was never going to be allowed by the Lowland league

You know summit Beenzon, you only have to look at your posts , the daft arguments and know your views.
if I was a junior guy, I would not even comment on it as its actually FACT, the west region member lied to the west region committee men that the LL and spfl were going for option Z when they were never going to do that

 

for anyone else information the other options were

W - the WRSJFA Premiership ONLY is linked into the Pyramid at Tier 6 (i.e. below the Lowland League and equal in status to the EoSL Premier Division and the SoSL) for season 2020-21. The champions of each, IF LICENSED, qualify to play off for promotion to the LL. The WRSJFA Championship, League One and League Two will effectively be placed at Tiers 7 to 8. The ERSJFA and the NRSJFA remain outside the Pyramid.

X - the WRSJFA joins the Pyramid as in W above. ALSO, the ERSJFA creates a top division of 16 clubs which is placed in the Pyramid at Tier 7 (i.e. below, and feeding into the EoSL Premier Division).

Y - Same as X, but the ERSJFA is placed at Tier 6 equal in status to the WRSJFA, EoSL Premier and SoSL.


Option W was really the only one that could go through

 

[theesel1994]

So Option W is what we now have except ran by a Senior League and not the West Region. Largs Thistle the sole club that realised  this was the only option possible.

[Pyramidic]

3 hours ago, mcruic said:lot

Quote from Burnieman on EOSFL new clubs thread

Quote

"Good Evening, Livingston Utd would like to announce that we applied with an application for season 2020-2021 in the East of Scotland Football League. Unfortunately applications were due to be submitted by 31 March 2020 & due to our extraordinary meeting being cancelled, our application was submitted after this deadline. Following our late application & appeal letter it has been confirmed that we have been declined entry for season 2020-2021, however, should a place become available then we shall consider entry. We would like to thank the East of Scotland Football League for considering of our late application & look forward to further involvement in the Scottish Pyramid Football League. 

Livingston Utd FC"

Given the EoS are going to be left at 49 clubs next season IF Bo'ness go upto the LL (likely), then we'll be left with an imbalance in the Conferences.  Opportunity to admit Livingston at AGM if that happens? They're keen.

Fully agree with Burnieman above.  Taking this a stage further from mcruic’s model tables for the WoSFL there is clearly a vacancy for one team. Suggest that any AMATEUR or YOUTH clubs that are interested should get in a late application.

It does not make sense to run with a Tier 7 Conference of 15 clubs if there is a suitable candidate to fill the vacancy. Still time for a club like Strathclyde University to make a well presented and justified submission. With the lengthy delays caused by the Coronavirus pandemic crisis there is another reason to show some flexibility and common sense.

[mcruic]

It won't happen but:

Lowland League should really be split (or rather - Lowland League should be for East clubs, and rename itself). There are more than twice as many non-league clubs in the Lowland catchment area than there are in the Highland catchment area.  It thus makes it twice as hard for any East or West club to progress through the pyramid.

Three Tier 5 leagues gives East, West and North all an equal chance.  The current set up gives very roughly an 80-160 affair, when a more sensible option would be an 80-80-80 affair.

 

 

 

 

 

[mcruic]

3 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Quote from Burnieman on EOSFL new clubs thread

Fully agree with Burnieman above.  Taking this a stage further from mcruic’s model tables for the WoSFL there is clearly a vacancy for one team. Suggest that any AMATEUR or YOUTH clubs that are interested should get in a late application.

It does not make sense to run with a Tier 7 Conference of 15 clubs if there is a suitable candidate to fill the vacancy. Still time for a club like Strathclyde University to make a well presented and justified submission. With the lengthy delays caused by the Coronavirus pandemic crisis there is another reason to show some flexibility and common sense.

There was no application to fill the odd place in the West Juniors (meaning the bottom division ran with 15 teams last season).  It's not a huge problem (though it looks untidy).  Also, possibly another large youth club (Giffnock Soccer Centre, for example) could be encouraged to follow in the footsteps of Saint Cadoc's.

[Beenzon-Toste]

 
lets explain it and why the lowland League wouldn't go for it and what the west region would gain

Option Z - the Lowland League is split into two divisions East and West, with additional LICENSED member clubs being admitted to make up the numbers.

Why would the Lowland want to spilt their league and have a west and an east as it would cause hassle regarding the playoff for a start with the highland league
The west region were wanting to come in and take charge of the west section, so obviously that was never going to be allowed by the Lowland league

You know summit Beenzon, you only have to look at your posts , the daft arguments and know your views.
if I was a junior guy, I would not even comment on it as its actually FACT, the west region member lied to the west region committee men that the LL and spfl were going for option Z when they were never going to do that


 
for anyone else information the other options were


W - the WRSJFA Premiership ONLY is linked into the Pyramid at Tier 6 (i.e. below the Lowland League and equal in status to the EoSL Premier Division and the SoSL) for season 2020-21. The champions of each, IF LICENSED, qualify to play off for promotion to the LL. The WRSJFA Championship, League One and League Two will effectively be placed at Tiers 7 to 8. The ERSJFA and the NRSJFA remain outside the Pyramid.

X - the WRSJFA joins the Pyramid as in W above. ALSO, the ERSJFA creates a top division of 16 clubs which is placed in the Pyramid at Tier 7 (i.e. below, and feeding into the EoSL Premier Division).

Y - Same as X, but the ERSJFA is placed at Tier 6 equal in status to the WRSJFA, EoSL Premier and SoSL.


Option W was really the only one that could go through


 

You've explained nothing.
I know what the Options were.
Everyone knew what the options were.
I understand why the LL would not be in favour of Z.
But the question asked was why would the WRSJFA try to lie to the clubs if they already knew that going back to the PWG with Option Z was a non starter?
Why tell a lie when you know you're going to be found out?

[mcruic]

2 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

You can see here how it went with the East Super (those that entered).

Yeah they just went with a straightforward model, but this made the conferences unequal
Numbering all clubs 1-39 as above, average strength is as follows (where 50 is average, 100 is best possible (i.e. teams 1-13) and 0 is worst (teams 27-39 in one conference).

With serpentine system
Conference A; 50.3
Conference B; 49.7
Conference C; 50.0

Without serpentine system (what actually happened)
Conference A; 53.8
Conference B; 50.0
Conference C; 46.2

Essentially, it made Conference A 17% harder than Conference C, and 8% harder than Conference B, and made Conference B 8% harder than Conference C.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by mcruic

[Tutankhamen]

2 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

I imagine 16 will be the target number. As you say, it can be done gradually over the next couple of seasons rather than relegating a horde of clubs at the end of next season, whenever that starts.

ffs, the drawbridge is already getting lifted and they haven't played a game.

What's the plan, one relegation place with a play off against the mugs below?

[mcruic]

6 minutes ago, Tutankhamen said:

ffs, the drawbridge is already getting lifted and they haven't played a game.

What's the plan, one relegation place with a play off against the mugs below?

16 is a sensible number - 20 is too many and is simply a compromise for the first season.  There's no drawbridge.  16 in Lowland League, 17 in Highland League, 16 in East of Scotland League, 14 in South of Scotland League.  No other senior league in Scotland has 20 teams (or any league in any grade in Scotland?).

So 16 is a sensible number to work towards.  It's already what they have in the WoS Juniors - so nothing new...  I'd imagine 2 or 3 promotion places will be in place by the time the top league goes to 16.

What do you expect, 20 teams and 38 games per team forever?  It's hard enough to finish the season with a 16-team league.  Just that 4-team increase means 380 games per season instead of 240.

 

 

 

[mcruic]

Instead of just disliking my post gogsy, please explain why you dislike it.  Or are you an advocate of continuing with a 20-team league forever and cramming 380 games into a season, not counting cup matches?  If so, please enlighten us as to why you think this is a good idea.  Otherwise, I'll assume you just dislike without thinking.

[caliy]

21 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Yeah they just went with a straightforward model, but this made the conferences unequal
Numbering all clubs 1-39 as above, average strength is as follows (where 50 is average, 100 is best possible (i.e. teams 1-13) and 0 is worst (teams 27-39 in one conference).

With serpentine system
Conference A; 50.3
Conference B; 49.7
Conference C; 50.0

Without serpentine system (what actually happened)
Conference A; 53.8
Conference B; 50.0
Conference C; 46.2

Essentially, it made Conference A 17% harder than Conference C, and 8% harder than Conference B, and made Conference B 8% harder than Conference C.

 

Another one! 

 

[mcruic]

2 minutes ago, caliy said:

Another one! 

 

Yeah - what's wrong, too thick to comprehend?  Ffs.  Go back under your rock.  Or do you want to go back and send that image to everyone who wrote posts before that I was simply replying to and see how long you last in here?

Edited May 3, 2020 by mcruic

[Andy groundhopper]

6 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

 

Have either of you actually been to the West of Scotland? If pointless arguing was a sport we'd be world champions.

Yes thanks Sergeant,have been going up to the West region  the past 5 years, managed to see around 100+ games,mainly the juniors and a few spfl as well. Was meant to be up the end of May, but I will return asap. 

[Bad Wolf]

56 minutes ago, mcruic said:

It won't happen but:

Lowland League should really be split (or rather - Lowland League should be for East clubs, and rename itself). There are more than twice as many non-league clubs in the Lowland catchment area than there are in the Highland catchment area.  It thus makes it twice as hard for any East or West club to progress through the pyramid.

Three Tier 5 leagues gives East, West and North all an equal chance.  The current set up gives very roughly an 80-160 affair, when a more sensible option would be an 80-80-80 affair.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm sure you mean well, but your "Lowland League is an east coast league" assertion is factually incorrect, (look at a map for instant proof) as well as echoing the tedious "it's an east coast conspiracy!" narrative already flogged to death on another thread. The WOSL is (almost) here, and what happened in 2013 is irrelevant. I do agree, though, that in the long term, once the Lowland League has gained an automatic promotion spot, and once tier 5 and 6 are full of licenced clubs from all parts of the country; then a three way split (probably at the Tay, though arguably it could be the Forth for numerical balance) will be both necessary and desirable.

[mcruic]

1 minute ago, Bad Wolf said:

I'm sure you mean well, but your "Lowland League is an east coast league" assertion is factually incorrect, (look at a map for instant proof) as well as echoing the tedious "it's an east coast conspiracy!" narrative already flogged to death on another thread. The WOSL is (almost) here, and what happened in 2013 is irrelevant. I do agree, though, that in the long term, once the Lowland League has gained an automatic promotion spot, and once tier 5 and 6 are full of licenced clubs from all parts of the country; then a three way split (probably at the Tay, though arguably it could be the Forth for numerical balance) will be both necessary and desirable.

You misunderstand me - perhaps my clumsy wording - I am advocating getting rid of it altogether, not making it solely for East clubs.  I also said East, not East Coast.

So what I meant was - Lowland League > splits into East League/West League (both at same level as Highland League).

[Tutankhamen]

42 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Instead of just disliking my post gogsy, please explain why you dislike it.  Or are you an advocate of continuing with a 20-team league forever and cramming 380 games into a season, not counting cup matches?  If so, please enlighten us as to why you think this is a good idea.  Otherwise, I'll assume you just dislike without thinking.

Best to block him.

[Cyclizine]

17 minutes ago, mcruic said:

You misunderstand me - perhaps my clumsy wording - I am advocating getting rid of it altogether, not making it solely for East clubs.  I also said East, not East Coast.

So what I meant was - Lowland League > splits into East League/West League (both at same level as Highland League).

I think many have suggested the three way split and on the surface it definitely has its merits. The issue is that the S(P)FL clubs didn't really want two feeders, they wanted a single "non-league superleague". Two was a compromise. Even with the tiers chock full of licenced clubs, this is always going to be an obstacle.

[BANKIEBILL]

4 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

I think many have suggested the three way split and on the surface it definitely has its merits. The issue is that the S(P)FL clubs didn't really want two feeders, they wanted a single "non-league superleague". Two was a compromise. Even with the tiers chock full of licenced clubs, this is always going to be an obstacle.

 small steps I guess but it will be a frustration

[mcruic]

Just now, Cyclizine said:

I think many have suggested the three way split and on the surface it definitely has its merits. The issue is that the S(P)FL clubs didn't really want two feeders, they wanted a single "non-league superleague". Two was a compromise. Even with the tiers chock full of licenced clubs, this is always going to be an obstacle.

The 10-team lower level is a major obstacle to promotion/relegation being any more than 1 (or 1/2) a team at a time.

12-14-16 lends itself better to the concept, and gets rid of an unnecessary tier. But of course, the SPFL won't want to lose 3 clubs a year, even though they'd arguably be replaced by better-run, better-supported and more financially stable clubs (perhaps better - turkeys won't vote for Christmas).

Also, the "non-league Superleague" is a non-starter simply because of the geographical divide in non-league football - it's wider than that in the SPFL - 8 teams from the HL and 8 from the LL in a single national league just wouldn't work - imagine Dalbeattie Star travelling to the Highlands/Aberdeenshire 7 times a season.

The Lowland League, when it was set up, largely catered for what is known informally as "the East".  The West didn't figure.  The word "Lowland" was a perfect analogy to Highland.  It was essentially a Lothian & Borders league, with a few Dumfries & Galloway teams in now and again (who usually found it difficult).  East Kilbride was the only West team in it.  Even now, there's only 4 West teams (one of which plays in the East), 2 D & G teams, and 10 East teams.  The point is - whether or not it was set up with the whole of the south of Scotland in mind, it was essentially an East league, and the teams seriously thinking about promotion to it were all East.

Now that the West is on board, that changes the whole dynamic.  It was an opportunity to revisit the Highland/Lowland split - which when it was set up did not have to cater for West teams.

 

 

 

[AlanCamelonfan]

4 minutes ago, mcruic said:

The 10-team lower level is a major obstacle to promotion/relegation being any more than 1 (or 1/2) a team at a time.

12-14-16 lends itself better to the concept, and gets rid of an unnecessary tier. But of course, the SPFL won't want to lose 3 clubs a year, even though they'd arguably be replaced by better-run, better-supported and more financially stable clubs (perhaps better - turkeys won't vote for Christmas).

Also, the "non-league Superleague" is a non-starter simply because of the geographical divide in non-league football - it's wider than that in the SPFL - 8 teams from the HL and 8 from the LL in a single national league just wouldn't work - imagine Dalbeattie Star travelling to the Highlands/Aberdeenshire 7 times a season.

The Lowland League, when it was set up, largely catered for what is known informally as "the East".  The West didn't figure.  The word "Lowland" was a perfect analogy to Highland.  It was essentially a Lothian & Borders league, with a few Dumfries & Galloway teams in now and again (who usually found it difficult).  East Kilbride was the only West team in it.  Even now, there's only 4 West teams (one of which plays in the East), 2 D & G teams, and 10 East teams.  The point is - whether or not it was set up with the whole of the south of Scotland in mind, it was essentially an East league, and the teams seriously thinking about promotion to it were all East.

Now that the West is on board, that changes the whole dynamic.  It was an opportunity to revisit the Highland/Lowland split - which when it was set up did not have to cater for West teams.

 

 

 

Cumbernauld colts, Edusport and BSC Glasgow are west