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Amateur following WOSFL


Need to get fit
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1 hour ago, Need to get fit said:

Think it’s a bit different now from the junior game teams with ambition can progress as much as they want and teams that have maybe treading water in the professional league could find themselves being pushed down the leagues 

Yeah they can be but do you really think they are going to take enough amateur players to cause the amateur game to fold probably not the good teams with those sorts of ambitions will throw money at players in the leagues higher than them.. There will of course be the odd few players from the amateur game but I don't think it's anything to worry about 

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With Oban going to Central and St Jos to Caley i think both these leagues have arguably the best teams in the west central belt in their leagues. It would be great if they joined (West of Scotland Amateur League) it would instantly create the league in that area where all the best teams competed together. Would be fantastic. SAFL & GGPL could feed into this and would be good for them as ambitious clubs wanting to progress would need to win their Premier Leagues to get into WoS Am.

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Regionalisation is 100% the way forward for one season then create 2 super Divisions after that season. And the  remaining teams just continue to play in regions 

Simple to do for Saturday afternoon football and The SAFA are aware of it [ and have small support within it ]  as we put it forward to them back Last September B4 the shut down.

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Presuming the WoSFL ends up with something similar to a Premier League/1st Division and two 2nd Divisions (North and South) I can see some intermediate league being attached below the 2nd divisions which would be, practically, an amalgam of the better run amateur clubs based on a geographical basis. Perhaps split Clydeside/Ayrshire/Glasgow/Lanarkshire? (argue amongst yourselves).

Whereas the WoSFL would have stricter ground criteria these leagues would be a buffer with far more relaxed ground criteria but still a minimum expectation. If clubs did want to progress they would need to win their league and have a viable ground for them to do so but they wouldn't need to break the bank to get the grounds to the quality needed in the WoSFL to join the pyramid. Best of both worlds.

Edited by AsimButtHitsASix
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Regionalisation is 100% the way forward for one season then create 2 super Divisions after that season. And the  remaining teams just continue to play in regions 
Simple to do for Saturday afternoon football and The SAFA are aware of it [ and have small support within it ]  as we put it forward to them back Last September B4 the shut down.

Don't often see eye to eye with you auld yin but it has merits. My suggestion of merging Caley & Central imho was to make it more straightforward if the 2 leagues would put their heads together. Thereafter you could regionalise it and have promotions from the regions, IF the teams in the top positions wanted to progress.
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On 24/04/2020 at 12:07, auld yin wae knowledge said:

Regionalisation is 100% the way forward for one season then create 2 super Divisions after that season. And the  remaining teams just continue to play in regions 

Simple to do for Saturday afternoon football and The SAFA are aware of it [ and have small support within it ]  as we put it forward to them back Last September B4 the shut down.

Auld yin - what do think the future will hold for amateur football as I cannot see it surviving in current structure ?

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On 25/04/2020 at 19:53, tug said:

Auld yin - what do think the future will hold for amateur football as I cannot see it surviving in current structure ?

Tug - Amateur football will survive but a number of Leagues will fold, Thus regionalisation is the answer in my opinion to prevent as many for doing that.

They is a chain of thought from people who use this forum either to read the posts or contribute to a topic of " I'm all right jack " attitude but forgetting when you are in a position [ like me ] you have to look at the whole amateur football game not just your own League,

Now it has been said to me the reason  I am pushing for regionalisation is because my League [ SAFL ]  is losing teams [ all leagues are ]  NOT TRUE I have suggesting this format since about 2006 and past presidents/secretaries of The SAFA know that and  I was even involved in discussions with leagues about 20 years ago regarding something similar. 

Its also been put to me that amalgamation of Leagues is the answer to the problem it may well be however I think that is only a temporary solution as it does not answer the travel issues.

Saying that all above is insignificant  of what some people are going through right now 

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Going by what happens down here in Bristol, players go up to County level because there's very little travelling involved- clubs have turned down promotions for this reason. After that you are asking players to travel, maybe difficult fitting around work etc. Imagine Amateur clubs in Scotland would be similar,depending on where the players come from. Does money have a big influence in the junior/seniors game ?

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  • 2 months later...

One thing that would help is a central resource for all results from all the leagues instead of having to hunt down the association pages (some associations don't have proper websites even, and post tables now and again on Facebook/Twitter, etc.)  However, it took the Scottish Junior FA long enough to get all the Junior results on the one website.

As far as I am aware:

NORTH (10)
Aberdeenshire is the only winter league here - there are 9 other summer amateur leagues (Inverness & District, North West Sutherland, Orkney, Lewis & Harris, Uist & Barra, Skye & Lochalsh, Caithness, Shetland, Shetland Works (the teams in this are essentially 3rd division teams in Shetland)) - these teams tend to play in the Highland Amateur Cup rather than the Scottish Amateur Cup.  Shetland and Shetland Works should really amalgamate.  Level of most of these teams is quite low.  Some of the Inverness teams are pub teams.

EAST (7)
Midlands (Dundee and Angus), Perthshire, Stirling & District, Kingdom of Fife, Dundee Saturday Morning, Lothian & Edinburgh, Border - Dundee Saturday Morning could join Midlands.  Level of some of the Fife, Stirling and Lothian teams is good. Dundee Saturday Morning has quite a few pub teams.

WEST (9)
Greater Glasgow Premier, Central Scottish, Scottish, Caledonian, Glasgow Colleges, Strathclyde Evangelical Churches, Ayrshire, Glasgow & District Saturday Morning, Strathclyde Saturday Morning - Several of these leagues in the Glasgow area could easily merge.

The West seems to have the most overlap, as mentioned on this thread.  One way to solve this is to make a "Glasgow Superleague" - that way, all the big teams from across the leagues could play each other.  It could also be integrated into the pyramid (the best amateur teams are better than the lower-ranked junior teams).  Not all amateur teams would wish to step up, but there are a few with better facilities and followings who would welcome the chance.  The Ayrshire League and Glasgow League could then be feeders to the WoSFL.  The Churches and Colleges leagues might want to continue playing like with like - I'm not sure what the standard is like, but I seem to remember one or two of the teams getting quite far in the Scottish Amateur Cup.  As also mentioned in this thread, it would be good to see some sort of compromise between the afternoon/morning leagues.  One problem would be the sheer number of teams, so the Glasgow League would need to be a pyramid in itself (rather than having something like 10 divisions).

For the East - these leagues are pretty much set up nicely (geographically) already, and could be integrated into the pyramid under the EoSFL (Once the Tayside clubs decide where they want to go).

For the North - the Aberdeenshire amateurs could slot in under the North Juniors, while the rest could be feeders to the North Caledonian League.

Given the amount of time it's taken the juniors to get (almost) on board, I'm not holding my breath for any changes in the amateur game.  But it does seem odd that there are teams like Colville Park beating senior teams like Burntisland Shipyard 7-0 in the Scottish Cup, but they are nominally in a lower league.

I'm currently trying to put together just a simple list of all the amateur clubs in Scotland, along with the league and town they play in - but this involves going around all the websites, as the Scottish Amateur FA website info is out of date in most cases.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mcruic
Cannae coont!
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Another issue is that especially (but not exclusively) in the West, some teams field B and even C teams in certain leagues, and it's not always clear, as the league websites don't differentiate (Oban Saints play their 2nd string in the Greater Glasgow Premier League, for example), but they are just listed as "Oban Saints" on the GGPL website.

There should be a map and directions to the ground of every club (surely all amateur clubs need this info at some point, especially with new clubs, as how else do they know where they are going on matchday?)  So, where is this information currently distributed to clubs?  For instance, there is a new club in the Strathclyde Saturday Morning League - "Dormy Forrest" - with no other info about the club.  I've since found on Twitter that the name seems to be based on one guy's recollection of it being the name of a club his grandad played for in 1977.  I'm not sure if "Forrest" is a mis-spelling of Forest.  But apart from this, how do other clubs in the league know where they play?

The Scottish Amateur FA requires that clubs register with them every season - surely this registration needs some assurance that the club have a ground to play on for the forthcoming season, and therefore, info about that ground (name, location) must be sent to the SAFA.  So why does the club directory on their website not have home grounds for many of the clubs?  It should be a relatively straightforward job to input the venue for each club.  I mean, somebody has gone to the bother of inputting contact details (name, phone, email) for their secretaries.  All it needs is a spreadsheet or suchlike to be updated once a year.

 

 

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Alot if Amateur teams do not have the luxury of a "home ground". They simply have a town/ scheme that they are based and need to apply on a weekly basis for a pitch to play on as close to their base as possible. Then u get the teams that do have a home ground but choose to play certain team on astroturf etc.

In regards to how teams know where their opposition play, that is usually discussed between the two club contacts in the lead up to the game that week.

It would be perfect if every club in scotland had a specific home park but it's just not possible with the condition of most council pitches and also some areas have far too many teams to all have a dedicated home pitch.

Take Shortlees AFC for example. One of Scotlands best teams and a great community club. Their registered home park is a place called Burnpark and as far as I'm aware appears on the ayrshire and Scottish afa website, I could count on one had the amount of times they have played at their "home park" in the last 2 seasons.

Another issue is that especially (but not exclusively) in the West, some teams field B and even C teams in certain leagues, and it's not always clear, as the league websites don't differentiate (Oban Saints play their 2nd string in the Greater Glasgow Premier League, for example), but they are just listed as "Oban Saints" on the GGPL website.
There should be a map and directions to the ground of every club (surely all amateur clubs need this info at some point, especially with new clubs, as how else do they know where they are going on matchday?)  So, where is this information currently distributed to clubs?  For instance, there is a new club in the Strathclyde Saturday Morning League - "Dormy Forrest" - with no other info about the club.  I've since found on Twitter that the name seems to be based on one guy's recollection of it being the name of a club his grandad played for in 1977.  I'm not sure if "Forrest" is a mis-spelling of Forest.  But apart from this, how do other clubs in the league know where they play?
The Scottish Amateur FA requires that clubs register with them every season - surely this registration needs some assurance that the club have a ground to play on for the forthcoming season, and therefore, info about that ground (name, location) must be sent to the SAFA.  So why does the club directory on their website not have home grounds for many of the clubs?  It should be a relatively straightforward job to input the venue for each club.  I mean, somebody has gone to the bother of inputting contact details (name, phone, email) for their secretaries.  All it needs is a spreadsheet or suchlike to be updated once a year.
 
 
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Amazed how confusing the Amateur set up is, really needs sorting out to make things better. Can only say about my experiences in Bristol running a club. Lge handbook would have secretary,ground,colours etc. Fixtures would go to the council to book pitches for the entire season - paid in two installments. Seems too many leagues in Scotland having just one division, hope things work out.

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4 hours ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Amazed how confusing the Amateur set up is, really needs sorting out to make things better. Can only say about my experiences in Bristol running a club. Lge handbook would have secretary,ground,colours etc. Fixtures would go to the council to book pitches for the entire season - paid in two installments. Seems too many leagues in Scotland having just one division, hope things work out.

The amateur set up is divided into 26 regional associations, each of which has varying degrees of professionalism with regard to how they operate.  As I mentioned in a previous post, some of the amateur teams are simply pub teams.

As for the division of clubs, it's done reasonably well, with the exception of the Glasgow area, which has several leagues covering the same area.

Most of the "one division" leagues are in the North, where there is no option, as there are fewer than 10 teams in the entire area covered by the league, and these are all summer leagues.

It could do with a bit of an overhaul, but it's already much better than it was years ago - most leagues have a functioning website, where results and tables are updated regularly.  Some of the top amateur teams have better support than certain junior or senior teams, but they choose to stay amateur. 

There's essentially 5 different types of amateur team.

1) - Stalwarts - teams who have a long history, and may have been senior or junior at some point.
2) - Town representative team - with many smaller towns and villages, the team is essentially representing the community.  These teams tend to come and go over the years.
3) - Pub team - not too serious - playing recreationally (in that way, no different to the "welfare" teams - the other of Scotland's 4 grades).  Again, these teams tend to come and go over the years.
4) - Amateur wing of senior/junior club - to give players a chance at playing competitive football with a view to promoting them to the senior/junior grade.
5) - Organisational club (University/Banks/Services, etc.).

The First 2 on this list I would say would be good candidates for joining the pyramid, whereas the other 3 may be happy to play forever at the amateur grade.  The first 2 also have some kind of connection to history/the community in which they play, so are more likely to be longer lasting.


 

 

 

 

 

 

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