Is the Lowland League likely for split in two or three?

[weeto]

With the situation with another influx of ex Juniors into the Lowland League’s Pyramid system with the West of Scotland Football League as a third feeder to the Lowland League, is the huge bottleneck of fairly big clubs trying to go up the ladder and many of them bigger than some of the current Lowland League teams, is it likely the Lowland League could split into equal West and East leagues with the Lowland teams joining their region? It looks very difficult to rise up to even the Lowland League at the moment never mind the league so maybe giving the West, East and Highlands equal status might have to happen... The SOSFL would likely be part of the Eastern section I think rather than have full parity if the Lowland was divided...

[Guest]

Let's let the wosfl settle in first and see if any of the wosfl clubs can a) get to the LL and b) maintain LL status and c) progress into league football. The same process Edinburgh City, Cove, Kelty and Bonnyrigg have or are going through.

 

There is no need to split the LL (tier 5). Any split, if it does come to fruition, will most likely happen below the LL (a LL 2 East and LL2 West at tier 6)

 

The sosfl doesnt have to move anywhere in that scenario. They would then stay at tier 6 (licensed clubs in LL 2 East or west) and tier 7 along with the eosfl and wosfl top leagues below the LL2 East and LL2 West. (But that is years in the future until both the eosfl and wosfl settle into their respective positions)

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GordonS]

No. SPFL clubs would rather there was only one league at T5, never mind three. I don't think they'd accept potential relegation to a three-region T5, it does nothing for them.

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, weeto said:

With the situation with another influx of ex Juniors into the Lowland League’s Pyramid system with the West of Scotland Football League as a third feeder to the Lowland League, is the huge bottleneck of fairly big clubs trying to go up the ladder and many of them bigger than some of the current Lowland League teams, is it likely the Lowland League could split into equal West and East leagues with the Lowland teams joining their region? It looks very difficult to rise up to even the Lowland League at the moment never mind the league so maybe giving the West, East and Highlands equal status might have to happen... The SOSFL would likely be part of the Eastern section I think rather than have full parity if the Lowland was divided...

Years away from it happening and might never due to the competing factors at play.

[newcastle broon]

22 minutes ago, weeto said:

With the situation with another influx of ex Juniors into the Lowland League’s Pyramid system with the West of Scotland Football League as a third feeder to the Lowland League, is the huge bottleneck of fairly big clubs trying to go up the ladder and many of them bigger than some of the current Lowland League teams, is it likely the Lowland League could split into equal West and East leagues with the Lowland teams joining their region? It looks very difficult to rise up to even the Lowland League at the moment never mind the league so maybe giving the West, East and Highlands equal status might have to happen... The SOSFL would likely be part of the Eastern section I think rather than have full parity if the Lowland was divided...

This "bottleneck of fairly big clubs" could've been in the LL years ago. 

I think it could prove difficult getting LL teams to agree your proposal. 

[parsforlife]

Wait SoS be part of the east? That’s mad.

There’s so many things that would need to happen here.

1. 16+ sides get licenced in the west.

2.  Automatic relegation from spfl. There’s no point in just moving any bottleneck.

3. A desire from all lowland area leagues that they actually want this

4. get spfl/HL to agree. 

That’s quite a lot of obstacles.

[Spyro]

7 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

This "bottleneck of fairly big clubs" could've been in the LL years ago. 

I think it could prove difficult getting LL teams to agree your proposal. 

Exactly! Almost 20 years of dithering and negativity, and NOW people are complaining about a bottleneck caused by “weaker” teams occupying places in the tier above... Where do I start?!

[craigkillie]

19 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

There is no need to split the LL (tier 5). Any split, if it does come to fruition, will most likely happen below the LL (a LL 2 East and LL2 West at tier 6)

The need comes from a fairly obvious imbalance in the numbers involved in the pyramid (even if the NCL, North Juniors and Tayside Juniors join eventually).

In the SPFL, there are currently 12 Highland clubs and 30 Lowland clubs.

At tier 5 there are currently 17 Highland clubs and 16 Lowland clubs.

At tier 6 and below there are currently 0 Highland clubs and 131 Lowland clubs (50 EoS, 67 WoS, 14 SoS). Adding the currently unattached Juniors and NCL would make that 62 Highland clubs and 140 Lowland clubs.

If the SPFL reconstruction goes through and Kelty and Brora go up, the Highland League will shrink even more. If, eventually, as you would hope, the SPFL opens up at the bottom a bit more and there was automatic promotion/relegation (perhaps 2 up 2 down), then the Highland League would probably continue to shrink in size, since quite often they'd send someone up without getting anyone down.

All of this is before you even consider the relative qualities of the league, where quite obviously in about 5 years the Lowland League will be substantially stronger than the Highland League given the numbers (and size) of clubs involved in the Lowland pyramid.

Nobody is saying that there should be a different split at Tier 5 now, but it is quite clear that a three-way split at this level would be the optimal long-term solution.

[Guest]

The need comes from a fairly obvious imbalance in the numbers involved in the pyramid (even if the NCL, North Juniors and Tayside Juniors join eventually).
In the SPFL, there are currently 12 Highland clubs and 30 Lowland clubs.
At tier 5 there are currently 17 Highland clubs and 16 Lowland clubs.
At tier 6 and below there are currently 0 Highland clubs and 131 Lowland clubs (50 EoS, 67 WoS, 14 SoS). Adding the currently unattached Juniors and NCL would make that 62 Highland clubs and 140 Lowland clubs.
If the SPFL reconstruction goes through and Kelty and Brora go up, the Highland League will shrink even more. If, eventually, as you would hope, the SPFL opens up at the bottom a bit more and there was automatic promotion/relegation (perhaps 2 up 2 down), then the Highland League would probably continue to shrink in size, since quite often they'd send someone up without getting anyone down.
All of this is before you even consider the relative qualities of the league, where quite obviously in about 5 years the Lowland League will be substantially stronger than the Highland League given the numbers (and size) of clubs involved in the Lowland pyramid.
Nobody is saying that there should be a different split at Tier 5 now, but it is quite clear that a three-way split at this level would be the optimal long-term solution.

There is no need for a 3 way split at tier 5.

Tier 5 is fine as a LL/HL divide. We should wait and see if any of the current eosfl or wosfl winners reach the LL and manage to stay in the LL. It won't be as easy as some think to progress through the LL.

Years down the line we can talk about splitting the LL, but it won't be at tier 5, it will most likely happen at tier 6, as a LL2 east and west.

[craigkillie]

Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true.

[Guest]

Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true.

I'm not trying to make it true by repeating it. You evidently have taken issue with my opinion, which is fair enough.

Equally arguing that my opinion isn't valid 'just because' does nothing but undermine your well laid out statement from above.

I don't believe the LL has to split at tier 5, you do. Neither of us are right or wrong, just different.

[Burnieman]

The imbalance is a very valid concern, however it's a fairly moot point as by all accounts, SPFL clubs won't entertain the idea of a three way split at tier 5.  Look how difficult it is to get them to agree to an auto relegation spot, the Stenny Chairman even wants the play-off suspended for the next two seasons!

A LL2 split East and West probably isn't required now either with the creation of the WoS, it may have happened if the WRJFA had somehow got their league into the Pyramid under their control.

If there's going to be any more major changes in the LL area over the next few years (aside from dealing with Tayside), I think it will come in the form of a single division LL2 to occupy tier 6, and that will probably be born out of a desire to protect clubs in the LL from what is coming from below, and also perhaps to move the SoS further down the pecking order. They can also bring in licencing easier for tier 6.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Burnieman

[Countryman]

Eventually the best teams will get promoted, however unbalanced the pyramid is now or is / isn't in the future.

[GordonS]

On 19/04/2020 at 17:29, craigkillie said:

The need comes from a fairly obvious imbalance in the numbers involved in the pyramid (even if the NCL, North Juniors and Tayside Juniors join eventually).

In the SPFL, there are currently 12 Highland clubs and 30 Lowland clubs.

At tier 5 there are currently 17 Highland clubs and 16 Lowland clubs.

At tier 6 and below there are currently 0 Highland clubs and 131 Lowland clubs (50 EoS, 67 WoS, 14 SoS). Adding the currently unattached Juniors and NCL would make that 62 Highland clubs and 140 Lowland clubs.

If the SPFL reconstruction goes through and Kelty and Brora go up, the Highland League will shrink even more. If, eventually, as you would hope, the SPFL opens up at the bottom a bit more and there was automatic promotion/relegation (perhaps 2 up 2 down), then the Highland League would probably continue to shrink in size, since quite often they'd send someone up without getting anyone down.

All of this is before you even consider the relative qualities of the league, where quite obviously in about 5 years the Lowland League will be substantially stronger than the Highland League given the numbers (and size) of clubs involved in the Lowland pyramid.

Nobody is saying that there should be a different split at Tier 5 now, but it is quite clear that a three-way split at this level would be the optimal long-term solution.

FWIW I don't disagree with the case you've explained well there. I just don't think it's worth debating it until and unless the EoS and WoS can show they are strong enough leagues to make the lower SPFL clubs feel that a drop into a LL East or West wouldn't be any worse than into the current set-up.

[Burnieman]

I note that Livingston have just released a statement laying out their vision of reconstruction which envisages the HL and LL Champs promoted to L2 each season with two relegated.

Laudible that a Premiership club support an increase in opportunites at our level, not sure it will happen though.

[stanley]

Yes, a very sensible and well-thought out statement from Livingston.  Nice to see clubs higher up talking up the idea, not only of the LL & HL champions being promoted for next season but it being a permanent feature.

Livingston statement

Quote

Livingston Football Club feels it is important that we address all our fans and fellow member clubs on our beliefs regarding league reconstruction. We feel it is paramount that we are open and transparent with everyone from the outset.

We have passed the first part in which we, as part of the 81% of all member clubs, voted “yes” for the SPFL’s resolution to end the 2019/20 Season for the Championship and Leagues 1 and 2. We always believed that this would be a two-part process, and it is appropriate to now address the second part: league reconstruction.

We believe that permanent league reconstruction is the most progressive way forward for Scottish Football as a whole. The introduction of the Highland League and Lowland League champions every year into the SPFL will bring the total number of clubs from 42 to 44. This would have a minimal financial effect on all current SPFL clubs.

We feel it is fundamental to the sporting integrity of Scottish Football that no club suffers the financial effects which relegation would bring, as a result of the remaining league games not being fulfilled.

Our proposal would be:

Scottish Premiership:

• 14 team league
• Split – Top 6 and Bottom 8
  • Opportunity – Space created for any fixture backlogs and potential cup games which generally involves the top 6 teams
• Two promoted from Championship
• Two relegated from Premiership
  • Potentially – 12^th (Prem) vs. 3^rd (Champ)? 

Scottish Championship:

• 10 team league
• Two promoted to the Premiership
• Two promoted from League 1
• Two relegated from Championship
  • Potentially – 12^th (Prem) vs. 3^rd (Champ)?

Scottish League 1

• 10 team league
• Two promoted to the Championship
• Two promoted from League 2
• Two relegated from League 1

Scottish League 2

• 10 team league
• Two promoted to the League 1
• Two promoted from Highland League Champions & Lowland League Champions
• Two relegated from League 2 to their regional division

This league reconstruction model is not only achievable, but it is also fair. No club will be prejudiced by the league ending early through no fault of their own. Some divisions had as much as up to 25% of league games left, with the Premiership split of top bottom six still to happen. The unfinished games had the potential to change the dynamics across the leagues.

As a club we passionately believe our proposal, if adopted, would show Scottish Football at its progressive best. It would achieve the twin objectives of no member club being unduly punished for an incomplete season on the field of play, while preserving the sporting integrity of the game.

We are open to dialogue with the Reconstruction Group, but for the record, we do see permanent reconstruction as the fairest and simplest way forward.

 

[Tutankhamen]

On 19 April 2020 at 17:24, Spyro said:

Exactly! Almost 20 years of dithering and negativity, and NOW people are complaining about a bottleneck caused by “weaker” teams occupying places in the tier above... Where do I start?

Give in, tell us.

[Cornishman]

On 19/04/2020 at 16:41, weeto said:

With the situation with another influx of ex Juniors into the Lowland League’s Pyramid system with the West of Scotland Football League as a third feeder to the Lowland League, is the huge bottleneck of fairly big clubs trying to go up the ladder and many of them bigger than some of the current Lowland League teams, is it likely the Lowland League could split into equal West and East leagues with the Lowland teams joining their region? It looks very difficult to rise up to even the Lowland League at the moment never mind the league so maybe giving the West, East and Highlands equal status might have to happen... The SOSFL would likely be part of the Eastern section I think rather than have full parity if the Lowland was divided...

The Deal with the SPFL dictates that there will be no more than two divisions feeding into the national divisions.

[foreverarover]

I note that Livingston have just released a statement laying out their vision of reconstruction which envisages the HL and LL Champs promoted to L2 each season with two relegated.

Laudible that a Premiership club support an increase in opportunites at our level, not sure it will happen though.

[/quote. The top league decide what goes on fron now on. They have to try and get a 11-1 yes vote to a top league proposition before trying to get the other leagues below to be sorted. would the Brechin chairman on the spfl board say yes to that, not a chance.

 

[foreverarover]

Yes, a very sensible and well-thought out statement from Livingston.  Nice to see clubs higher up talking up the idea, not only of the LL & HL champions being promoted for next season but it being a permanent feature.
Livingston statement

Livingston Football Club feels it is important that we address all our fans and fellow member clubs on our beliefs regarding league reconstruction. We feel it is paramount that we are open and transparent with everyone from the outset.

We have passed the first part in which we, as part of the 81% of all member clubs, voted “yes” for the SPFL’s resolution to end the 2019/20 Season for the Championship and Leagues 1 and 2. We always believed that this would be a two-part process, and it is appropriate to now address the second part: league reconstruction.

We believe that permanent league reconstruction is the most progressive way forward for Scottish Football as a whole. The introduction of the Highland League and Lowland League champions every year into the SPFL will bring the total number of clubs from 42 to 44. This would have a minimal financial effect on all current SPFL clubs.

We feel it is fundamental to the sporting integrity of Scottish Football that no club suffers the financial effects which relegation would bring, as a result of the remaining league games not being fulfilled.

Our proposal would be:

Scottish Premiership:

• 14 team league
• Split – Top 6 and Bottom 8
  • Opportunity – Space created for any fixture backlogs and potential cup games which generally involves the top 6 teams
• Two promoted from Championship
• Two relegated from Premiership
  • Potentially – 12^th (Prem) vs. 3^rd (Champ)? 

Scottish Championship:

• 10 team league
• Two promoted to the Premiership
• Two promoted from League 1
• Two relegated from Championship
  • Potentially – 12^th (Prem) vs. 3^rd (Champ)?

Scottish League 1

• 10 team league
• Two promoted to the Championship
• Two promoted from League 2
• Two relegated from League 1

Scottish League 2

• 10 team league
• Two promoted to the League 1
• Two promoted from Highland League Champions & Lowland League Champions
• Two relegated from League 2 to their regional division

This league reconstruction model is not only achievable, but it is also fair. No club will be prejudiced by the league ending early through no fault of their own. Some divisions had as much as up to 25% of league games left, with the Premiership split of top bottom six still to happen. The unfinished games had the potential to change the dynamics across the leagues.

As a club we passionately believe our proposal, if adopted, would show Scottish Football at its progressive best. It would achieve the twin objectives of no member club being unduly punished for an incomplete season on the field of play, while preserving the sporting integrity of the game.

We are open to dialogue with the Reconstruction Group, but for the record, we do see permanent reconstruction as the fairest and simplest way forward.

 
I assume you mean no relegation for next season. And two up and down the season after. The issue is the top league will probably only accept a 14cteam league for 1 season then have it returned to normality. They would not want to split the prize pot 14 ways each season.