our juniors next season bring it on

[FairWeatherFan]

36 minutes ago, mcruic said:

But you're picking outliers.  Carnoustie to Wick is twice Carnoustie to Coldstream.  There's only a handful of Borders teams in the EoS and they don't all play in the same division.  

I realise the line had to be drawn somewhere, but it should have been two lines, not one. Carnoustie managed just fine in the East Juniors when Lothian and Fife teams were in it.  It's shorter from Carnoustie to West Lothian than it is from Carnoustie to most towns in Aberdeenshire/Moray.

For the likes of Carnoustie to enter the pyramid the typical answer is 3x Highland League feeders in the NCL, North Region Superleague and a Tayside League. Since it doesn't require ripping up leagues to make it happen.

The Tayside league pretty much formed itself with the 10-8 split this season and looks to be a 17 team league next season. So they wouldn't have to worry about travelling to most towns in Aberdeenshire/Moray until they ever reach the Highland League.

[mcruic]

9 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

You can prattle on about three feeders as much as you want, but it's never going to happen any time soon, the SPFL clubs wanted one feeder. Two was a huge compromise. There's nowhere near enough licenced teams to split North/East/West anyway.

Moving from a hypothetical Tayside Tier 6 to the Highland League is moving upwards, not sure why you're claiming it's not.

I suggested it would be a sensible solution.  Licensing can happen later, as is happening now in the EoS with a clear pathway in sight.  So please don't be condescending - I don't prattle.  The only way to challenge self-serving organisations Is to raise support for alternatives - it has to start somewhere, even on a discussion forum.

Clubs in Tayside would be moving from East Juniors to a hypothetical Tier 6 Tayside - a sideways move.  They'd only move up to the Highland league if they were promoted.  The initial move is sideways, not upwards.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by mcruic

[AlanCamelonfan]

52 minutes ago, mcruic said:

But you're picking outliers.  Carnoustie to Wick is twice Carnoustie to Coldstream.  There's only a handful of Borders teams in the EoS and they don't all play in the same division.  

I realise the line had to be drawn somewhere, but it should have been two lines, not one. Carnoustie managed just fine in the East Juniors when Lothian and Fife teams were in it.  It's shorter from Carnoustie to West Lothian than it is from Carnoustie to most towns in Aberdeenshire/Moray.

Aye coz it wasnt them travelling midweek for a 715 kick off it was us 2 years in a row

[mcruic]

4 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Aye coz it wasnt them travelling midweek for a 715 kick off it was us 2 years in a row

Compared to the more important subject of reorganising the entire national football pyramid so that it's as fair as possible for everyone, travelling twice to Carnoustie in midweek really is a small price to pay.  Everyone has to make certain small sacrifices to gain collectively.  The EoS league might just have a more accommodating fixture scheduling setup so it would avoid this type of thing.

[AlanCamelonfan]

4 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Compared to the more important subject of reorganising the entire national football pyramid so that it's as fair as possible for everyone, travelling twice to Carnoustie in midweek really is a small price to pay.  Everyone has to make certain small sacrifices to gain collectively.  The EoS league might just have a more accommodating fixture scheduling setup so it would avoid this type of thing.

In my opinion tayside.should have been north in the juniors. Clearly sfa lowland league etc agree tayside should go north

Shoulda woulda coulda. Had the road infastruce cross country rather then north to south you could have north central and south leagues but it doesn't and glasgow and ayrshire have a better road infrastructure 

[mcruic]

7 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

In my opinion tayside.should have been north in the juniors. Clearly sfa lowland league etc agree tayside should go north

Shoulda woulda coulda. Had the road infastruce cross country rather then north to south you could have north central and south leagues but it doesn't and glasgow and ayrshire have a better road infrastructure 

I know what you're saying, but should all the top Tayside clubs be forced to travel further just because their road infrastructure might not be great?  The Borders should be South rather than east, but they're not.

[Cyclizine]

1 hour ago, mcruic said:

I know what you're saying, but should all the top Tayside clubs be forced to travel further just because their road infrastructure might not be great?  The Borders should be South rather than east, but they're not.

Lets be realistic here, Angus/Tayside junior clubs are in the Highland catchment, the even play the inter-regional cup against North clubs. You've got to draw the line somewhere. The so-called top Tayside clubs are going to be outliers in any way you regionalise clubs. As has been pointed out, unless clubs want to step up to the Highland League, they're not going to have to travel further. There's smaller clubs resource-wise currently playing in the Highland League and travelling with no issue. It's just excuses.

[Jimi Shandrix]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

For the likes of Carnoustie to enter the pyramid the typical answer is 3x Highland League feeders in the NCL, North Region Superleague and a Tayside League. Since it doesn't require ripping up leagues to make it happen.

The Tayside league pretty much formed itself with the 10-8 split this season and looks to be a 17 team league next season. So they wouldn't have to worry about travelling to most towns in Aberdeenshire/Moray until they ever reach the Highland League.

I'm happy to go with the 17 team league for next season (batsoup pending). I'm actually quite excited by the prospect. 32 games home and away and no fannying about playing some teams twice at home and other teams twice away. Local shops for local people. But long term the 3 feeders for the Highland League probably is the way to go. The new Aberdeen bypass will help with travelling issues. I  suppose we'll see how much of a success the pyramid is elsewhere and take it from there.

[Marten]

8 hours ago, Jimi Shandrix said:

I'm happy to go with the 17 team league for next season (batsoup pending). I'm actually quite excited by the prospect. 32 games home and away and no fannying about playing some teams twice at home and other teams twice away. Local shops for local people. But long term the 3 feeders for the Highland League probably is the way to go. The new Aberdeen bypass will help with travelling issues. I  suppose we'll see how much of a success the pyramid is elsewhere and take it from there.

I personally wouldn't mind a joint north/Tayside superleague at tier 6. I think that will be more attractive than a Tayside-only league. Not sure it would actually have a chance of happening, but I don't think it would be a bad thing.

[FairWeatherFan]

19 minutes ago, Marten said:

I personally wouldn't mind a joint north/Tayside superleague at tier 6. I think that will be more attractive than a Tayside-only league. Not sure it would actually have a chance of happening, but I don't think it would be a bad thing.

The 3 way feeder is probably the easiest way in since it causes the least disruption. Given time with clubs becoming licenced you could see a HL2 formed that would work like a joint North/Tayside feeder.

[Burnieman]

12 hours ago, mcruic said:

  It's shorter from Carnoustie to West Lothian than it is from Carnoustie to most towns in Aberdeenshire/Moray.

That's not true.

Carnoustie to Aberdeen = 59 miles

Carnoustie to Peterhead = 95 miles

Carnoustie to Livingston = 77 miles

Carnoustie to Fauldhouse = 88 miles

The North Superleague is mainly based in and around Aberdeen with a few outliers, so you're core travel in that league would be no different and indeed closer (and quicker) than West Lothian clubs.

Travel is really a red herring, it's more idealogical for the Tayside clubs.

Edited April 29, 2020 by Burnieman

[Cyclizine]

It also doesn't take particularly longer for a Dundee-based club to get to clubs in the Highlands, compared to an Aberdeen-based one.

[mcruic]

I decided to test how the travelling would pan out for one team if they reached Tier 5.

Lochee United

With current system:

Lochee United in Highland League

Replacing bottom 7 Highland League clubs with Top 3 of both North and Tayside Juniors

Average travel distance for LU: 105.2 miles

Lochee United in Lowland League

Replacing Bottom 6 Lowland League teams with Top 2 of East, West Juniors and EoS League

Average travel distance for LU:  65.0 miles

With 3 Tier 5 leagues (North/West/East)

East League made up of current Lowland League teams in East, plus EoS teams + 3 Tayside teams.

Average travel distance for LU: 58.4 miles

So Lochee United (and other Dundee area teams) face travelling 40 miles extra per match being placed in the Highland rather than the Lowland League.  I didn't make the figures up.  I can see why Tayside teams would be against going north. And this kind of distribution of teams would be likely for at least 4 or 5 seasons, so a Tayside team going up to the HL would face lengthy travel unless it could win it at the first attempt.

The alternative much reduces their travel, and only increases travel of other teams in the LL marginally, as there may not be any more than 1 or 2 Tayside teams good enough for the LL.

For Carnoustie, 91.8 for HL, 78.4 for LL, 71.8 for Tier 5 East

Edited April 29, 2020 by mcruic

[AsimButtHitsASix]

The LL does, currently, have a bit of an East Coast bias tho'. Throw in Auchinleck or a few Ayrshire teams in the LL and a few Tayside/Aberdeenshire teams into the HL and it would find a balance in time

[mcruic]

9 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

The LL does, currently, have a bit of an East Coast bias tho'. Throw in Auchinleck or a few Ayrshire teams in the LL and a few Tayside/Aberdeenshire teams into the HL and it would find a balance in time

I deliberately put 2 Ayrshire teams into my LL model, and there are already 6 Glasgow/Lanarkshire teams in there too.

Theres no guarantee that there would be any more than half of the HL made up of former juniors.  In my model, I've already got 6 Tay/north junior teams in, as well as the many HL teams from Aberdeenshire.

Edited April 29, 2020 by mcruic

[FairWeatherFan]

19 minutes ago, mcruic said:

Lochee United in Lowland League

Replacing Bottom 6 Lowland League teams with Top 2 of East, West Juniors and EoS League

East League made up of current Lowland League teams in East, plus EoS teams + 3 Tayside teams.

Which is meaningless then, since there's never going to be that make up anytime soon.

[mcruic]

4 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Which is meaningless then, since there's never going to be that make up anytime soon.

The Lowland League comparison is not meaningless.  All I've done is replaced the bottom teams by the top teams from the existing feeders (WoS and EoS) and added 2 Tayside teams instead of SoS.  The system is already there apart from Tayside.  If I had just put 2 Tayside teams into the current Lowland League, the distances would have been similar.

Edited April 29, 2020 by mcruic

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, mcruic said:

The Lowland League comparison is not meaningless.  All I've done is replaced the bottom teams by the top teams from the existing feeders (WoS and EoS) and added 2 Tayside teams instead of SoS.  The system is already there apart from Tayside.  If I had just put 2 Tayside teams into the current Lowland League, the distances would have been similar.

So...meaningless then?

You're 4 years removed from Lochee United getting into the Lowland League at best. Nobody knows what it would look like then. This isn't like when the East Region formed the first Superleague and went we'll have 4x from you, 4x from you, and 4x from you.

You've conveniently gotten rid of Dalbeattie Star and Gretna 2008, but what if Annan Athletic and Stranraer had since been relegated into the Lowland League in time to meet up with Lochee United?

 

[mcruic]

21 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

So...meaningless then?

You're 4 years removed from Lochee United getting into the Lowland League at best. Nobody knows what it would look like then. This isn't like when the East Region formed the first Superleague and went we'll have 4x from you, 4x from you, and 4x from you.

You've conveniently gotten rid of Dalbeattie Star and Gretna 2008, but what if Annan Athletic and Stranraer had since been relegated into the Lowland League in time to meet up with Lochee United?

 

It's not meaningless if you understand the context, which you clearly don't.  I am talking about where Tayside clubs fit in all of this.  So my hypothetical distance matrix is not meant to be for next season.  Just because this thread purports to be about next season, next season is the first of many future seasons, where the question of where Tayside clubs fit will need to be addressed.  I didn't deliberately or conveniently remove any teams - I took out those that are coincidentally in the bottom positions and therefore least likely to be in the LL by the time any Tayside team might get in.  Anyway, the distance is still less for Lochee in the LL, even if we put Dalbeattie and Gretna back in AND add Annan for good measure.

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, mcruic said:

It's not meaningless if you understand the context, which you clearly don't.  I am talking about where Tayside clubs fit in all of this.  So my hypothetical distance matrix is not meant to be for next season.  Just because this thread purports to be about next season, next season is the first of many future seasons, where the question of where Tayside clubs fit will need to be addressed.  I didn't deliberately or conveniently remove any teams - I took out those that are coincidentally in the bottom positions and therefore least likely to be in the LL by the time any Tayside team might get in.  Anyway, the distance is still less for Lochee in the LL, even if we put Dalbeattie and Gretna back in AND add Annan for good measure.

I said Lochee United are 4 years removed from reaching the Lowland League at best. What would give you the impression I was talking about next season? In those four years you have no idea what the Highland and Lowland Leagues would look like to make any kind of comparison. The fact you only added teams promoted to the Highland/Lowland with no relegated teams from the SPFL highlights that.

For all you know there could be a Montrose derby in the Highland League by 2024.