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League Reconstruction 20/21 season

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3 minutes ago, Wilbur said:

To all the Hearts fans here, I have a question.

Do any of you know of any other Hearts fans who think this court case might be a bad idea ?

The wording of yesterday's statement makes it clear that there is no realistic expectation within Tynecastle of relegation being overturned, so this is just about financial compensation. 

The obvious downside for Hearts and Thistle being that, should they lose in court, the other clubs in the SPFL appear to have the power to terminate their membership. Whether that would ever happen is open to debate but, let's be honest here, Mrs Budge's approach has won her a lot of enemies within Scottish football. 

So it's all about risk and reward. Is it worth gambling Hearts future existence for the chance of a few £millions ?

 

 

Funny as f**k that you think you can expel us 😂 get yer cash oot 

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22 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

They can be, now.

It's in both SPFL and UEFA rules that clubs who take their league authority to civil court, to contest a decision the league authority made while following their own rules, is a  breach and must be punished.

I'm not so sure, at least at the SPFL end. It's SFA rules that have the explicit 'go via arbitration or you'll get clobbered' language - but this is likely not an SFA member dispute since I don't think the SPFL is an SFA member. The SPFL rules, from I42 onward, seem to use something called 'Expert Determination' which doesn't come with a set of punishments and does make reference to Scots Law and the Court of Session. They might be technically within their rights to use the courts like this, though I can't imagine this will end up without consequences for them somehow...

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Hearts will probably try to restructure the premier to 20 places if they finish 8th in the championship next year. Hopefully Partick or St Mirren pap them out of the next Scottish cup too.

Lots of hysterical outcomes could be waiting for them.

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3 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

That wasn't what I was getting at. If they are "expelled from the senior leagues" they can't end up in the Lowland League, as that's a senior league.

I think the "expelled from the senior leagues" is just a misunderstanding. 

Their SPFL membership would be revoked, so they could go into the Lowland League as that's, I believe, SFA run and you dont require an SPFL membership. 

They would obviously have to apply to join that division, and then apply for SPFL membership again if they won promotion. 

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14 minutes ago, Insaintee said:

It pretty much does, you cant award money without accepting final placings 

Why?

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Just now, RandomGuy. said:

I think the "expelled from the senior leagues" is just a misunderstanding. 

Their SPFL membership would be revoked, so they could go into the Lowland League as that's, I believe, SFA run and you dont require an SPFL membership. 

They would obviously have to apply to join that division, and then apply for SPFL membership again if they won promotion. 

It's sloppy journalism is what it is. Just say "expelled from the SPFL". It's absolutely ridiculous that so called journalists haven't yet grasped the difference between "national", "senior" and "junior" leagues, and throw "senior" about as if it's synonymous with "national". Mind you, the way things are going they may not need to worry about "junior" much longer.

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11 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

I'm not so sure, at least at the SPFL end. It's SFA rules that have the explicit 'go via arbitration or you'll get clobbered' language - but this is likely not an SFA member dispute since I don't think the SPFL is an SFA member. The SPFL rules, from I42 onward, seem to use something called 'Expert Determination' which doesn't come with a set of punishments and does make reference to Scots Law and the Court of Session. They might be technically within their rights to use the courts like this, though I can't imagine this will end up without consequences for them somehow...

Next penalty given season 2035-36?

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Unsure where the mental figure of compensation from Hearts is coming from.

Obviously there's a drop in prize and TV money. That doesn't get close to the silly figures being chucked about though.

There's a loss in matchday income too, but that's very hard to quantify. They'll lose big travelling supports of Celtic, Sevco and Hibs, as well as Aberdeen (although lesser numbers), and most other Premiership away supports will be higher than Championship away supports, and the hospitality sales associated with such games, but none of that is guaranteed income so would surely be very hard to put a number on? I suppose they could use historical data, but how would that stand up in court?

Obviously there's less games this season in the Championship too. Partick don't have a leg to stand on for that though as they'd be facing the same number of games regardless of if they were not relegated.

Would be interesting to see how Hearts arrived at their crazy figure.

Edited by DA Baracus

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11 minutes ago, Romeo said:

Hearts will probably try to restructure the premier to 20 places if they finish 8th in the championship next year. Hopefully Partick or St Mirren pap them out of the next Scottish cup too.

Lots of hysterical outcomes could be waiting for them.

Did we moan when we went down with the 15 point admin penalty? Did we moan when we yo-yo’d in the late70’s and early 80’s? This is different.

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8 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Why?

Because the amount money awarded is based on your placing. If you have not won or secured a placing then tecnically you are not entitled to any payments, and certainly not more that a team that is placed below you. 

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I can't see the pair being 'punished' for this unfortunately.

Imo the governing bodies will draw the line at the 'delaying or preventing the start of the season'. If they cross that, then they're fucked.

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5 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Did we moan when we went down with the 15 point admin penalty? Did we moan when we yo-yo’d in the late70’s and early 80’s? This is different.

Oh f**k aye.

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It seems strange that the prize money for winning the Premiership 2020 is £3.35 million, but the prize money for coming bottom in the same league is about three times that amount, according to some.  Talk about failing upwards.

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18 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Unsure where the mental figure of compensation from Hearts is coming from.

Obviously there's a drop in prize and TV money. That doesn't get close to the silly figures being chucked about though.

There's a loss in matchday income too, but that's very hard to quantify. They'll lose big travelling supports of Celtic, Sevco and Hibs, as well as Aberdeen (although lesser numbers), and most other Premiership away supports will be higher than Championship away supports, and the hospitality sales associated with such games, but none of that is guaranteed income so would surely be very hard to put a number on? I suppose they could use historical data, but how would that stand up in court?

Would be interesting to see how Hearts arrived at their crazy figure.

If anything, Thistle's claim for £2 million is even more mental.

Their total turnover in 2018/19 was barely over £3 million (£3,040,000, to the nearest 10K), and that was in a season where they received a £300,000  £500,000 parachute payment for having just been relegated from the Premiership via the playoffs. So their normal "Championship" income seems to be about £2,750,000 £2,500,000.

They're being relegated from the Championship to League One - the drop in prize money is only a few hundred thousand at most, as the winners of the Championship only get about £600,000. It's not like they're losing that much in away gate revenue either.

Thistle and Hearts seem to be expecting all the other clubs to not only pay the cost of dropping a division in prize money, but the far greater cost of not being able to play with fans or hospitality for the foreseeable future. But every club is having to put up with that, whether they were relegated or not. Hence the limited extent of sympathy.

Edited by JamesM82
thanks for "Flash" reminding me Thistle went down by playoff

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1 hour ago, Pet Jeden said:

That £9m has been dished out to the clubs. The SPFL will probably be operating on not much more than thin air at the moment. But there’s a big wedge due from SKY by 1st August. And that’s rock solid. Certain. Not under threat at all. No siree.

no....working capital is how much you have in the bank after allowing for all the liabilities your are due.  League payments are accounted for every season.  You don't really get this do you? You think the SPFL right now has a TSB account with £0.01 in it, don't you? which kind of sums up most of what you write about here.

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1 hour ago, Jake said:

So the court case bankrupts the SPFL. All the clubs say "Ah well, lets start a new club and call it SPFLWHPT" That's Scottish Professional Football League Without Hearts or Partick Thistle.

Do they get to keep the trophies?

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Maybe Hibs could use their Premiership entitlement to a weekend off to offer Hearts a glamour friendly.

 

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A rule book doesn't trump the law, regardless of any 'catch all' clause.

Hearts will almost certainly be arguing there's a disconnect between the rule book and the law in their particular situation (as opposed to arguing the rule book wasn't properly followed). In what regards we can only guess.

Nick de Marco QC recently wrote a piece in the Sports Law Bulletin about the implications of the failed South Shields appeal. His final concluding paragraph indicates areas where such disconnects may occur:

"The case is not, however, a carte blanche to governing bodies in these uncertain times. The FA, and other regulators in sport, remain bound by ordinary public law and contractual principles. Irrational decisions will continue to be challenged; and procedural fairness must be achieved notwithstanding the unprecedented times in which we live. The ability to amend or vary rules due to COVID-19 must be exercised in accordance with the rules or articles of association of each relevant league. Where decisions are made collectively by votes of member clubs (as is the case in levels above those considered in this case) unfair prejudice and/or competition law principles may also come into play."

The full article is at: https://www.sportslawbulletin.org/football-time-covid-19-lessons-be-learned-recent-decision-south-shields-fc-v-fa/

 

thanks to Paulh66 at Non League Matters for this.

Edited by Cornishman

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11 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Did we moan when we went down with the 15 point admin penalty?

There's an idea. Don't kick Hearts and Partick out of the league (why punish the Lowland League)? Just dock them fifteen points before the season starts.

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