League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[Biscuits]

If the boards of Hibs, or St Mirren, or Ross County, or St Johnstone, or Accies were to vote against this, their supporters would be within their rights to send angry letters asking the board to justify voting against something that is clearly of medium and long-term benefit

We would. But we won’t [emoji23][emoji23]

[Guest JTS98]

25 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Your argument seems to have become 14 teams isn't that bad and we're in an unusual situation so lets just go with it.

No. My argument, such as it is, is that 14 teams is not a bad outcome, despite some trying to paint it as 'horrendous'. That's what we were discussing yesterday. I said the same about 12.

Of course the reason for a push for change is the exceptional circumstance.

I think 16 is a bad outcome.

[Dons_1988]

5 minutes ago, Romeo said:

Hopefully St Mirren have the casting vote, agree but then change to a No (also known as doing a Dundee)

Much hilarity ensues..

All they need to do is be telling Hearts they'll be voting yes in a whatsapp group. 

'Leak' the chat to the press and then cast the doon vote.

[stressball]

Just wish it’d be over with to be honest. If Hearts came out and said they want a 14 team top tier with 3 up and 3 down BUT were willing to start going for it in the championship it would probably have been voted through.

If Hearts are as good and as big as people are saying then they should be capable of top two for automatic promotion without having to battle it out in a play off with third and 4th and whoever finished 12th in the SPL.
 

The reason no one really wants it is because it’s completely self serving of Hearts. The “Meaningless Games” argument doesn’t wash, we have many, many of them. 

 

If we need 4 Celtic // Rangers games a season then play each team 3 times for 39 and then finish with one game against everyone in your half of the bloody table for 46 games. Start the season earlier and it means teams don’t enter European qualifiers against Narnia completely cold when they’re about halfway through their season

[Dons_1988]

Just now, JTS98 said:

No. My argument, such as it is, is that 14 teams is not a bad outcome, despite some trying to paint it as 'horrendous'. That's what we were discussing yesterday. I said the same about 12.

Of course the reason for a push for change is the exceptional circumstance.

I think 16 is a bad outcome.

But it is, forget your sense of injustice for your club. Try and sell it to the other clubs.

14 is ok and I don't like 16, vote for this permanent change to the game. You have less chance of being relegated.

A brave new world.

[Pet Jeden]

14 minutes ago, Ric said:

How can you hold up the threat of court action as having any weight? Successful businesswoman Ann Budge has been flying that particular kite for over a month now and yet it's not had any effect.

Personally, I wouldn't have spoken about it to anybody other than McLennan/Doncaster and I would have triggered it weeks ago. I think AB is way too trusting* - which as a human being is a great thing , but as a Chairwoman swimming with sharks, is a weakness.

*e.g. trusting her brother with the stand, trusting Levein could turn things round, trusting how other clubs said they would vote, trusting that the recon panel was serious. And now trusting that Doncaster will get recon?

Edited June 12, 2020 by Pet Jeden

[kingjoey]

27 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Always embarrassing when you have a pop at somebody's English, only to fck up yourself, eh Joey?

Ach, I can take it, and not embarrassed in the slightest. I’m always a sucker for the incorrect use of a double negative. By the way, I think that you should have an “it” between “fck” and “yourself”. Otherwise it sounds if I’m doing something unspeakable, but maybe that was your intention. 

[Lebowski]

County and Hibs (both of whom have spent time in the Championship recently) would be voting:
1) To have much less chance of being relegated than they have now.
2) To be more likely to come straight back up if they were to be relegated.
3) To have derby matches next season.
From a business point of view it's a no-brainer. Same for St Mirren. St Mirren and Accies would be unwise to vote against a 14-team league. It would be good for them. Unless you think greater likelihood of spending more time in the top flight is a bad thing.
Likewise, clubs in the Championship with their eye on promotion would perhaps do well to vote to keep Hearts out the way for next season and to ensure that in the coming years some of the 'big at that level' clubs are kept in the Premiership, making that one automatic slot plus one play-off slot more attainable. They benefit in the same way.
A 14-team top flight with a second tier having one up with one in a play-off is a great deal for Premiership clubs for whom relegation is a regular concern. Harder to go down, easier to come up. That's exactly what these clubs want.
If the boards of Hibs, or St Mirren, or Ross County, or St Johnstone, or Accies were to vote against this, their supporters would be within their rights to send angry letters asking the board to justify voting against something that is clearly of medium and long-term benefit to their club.
Relegation is a concern for all clubs outwith the OF. The current league table is not forever. Hearts had brushes with relegation in the mid-90s and again in 99 before going down in 2014. Hibs went down in 98 and 2014. Aberdeen had a close call in 1995 and were saved by stadium regulations in 2000 before being second-last again in 2004. Dundee United went down in the 90s and again recently. Kilmarnock have had close calls. Motherwell have had close calls. St Johnstone have gone between the divisions. All these clubs know that in time that will come round again.
Running a business isn't just about what's happening this year.

If Hibs vote to promote Hearts without them kicking a ball in the league they were relegated to then it's not a good business decision because you're alienating a huge chunk of the support.

Hibs, and everyone else, are existing due to goodwill from their supporters buying season tickets. Fucking that to get derbies in a league where a significant amount of games will be behind closed doors? No happening.

[Guest JTS98]

8 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

But it is, forget your sense of injustice for your club. Try and sell it to the other clubs.

14 is ok and I don't like 16, vote for this permanent change to the game. You have less chance of being relegated.

A brave new world.

Hearts tried temporary change, you seem to be forgetting this.

You can't blame Hearts for trying something else.

As for 14, I haven't seen a convincing argument for why it is 'horrendous', but if you think so, then you think so.

It has an early split. That's about it.

I've never said there's anything wrong with 12. But the idea that 14 will mean the end of football is silly.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Lebowski said:

If Hibs vote to promote Hearts without them kicking a ball in the league they were relegated to then it's not a good business decision because you're alienating a huge chunk of the support.

Hibs, and everyone else, are existing due to goodwill from their supporters buying season tickets. Fucking that to get derbies in a league where a significant amount of games will be behind closed doors? No happening.

It's a fair way to see it. But Hibs' board would do well to look further down the line than next month's season ticket sales.

[Dons_1988]

Just now, JTS98 said:

Hearts tried temporary change, you seem to be forgetting this.

You can't blame Hearts for trying something else.

As for 14, I haven't seen a convincing argument for why it is 'horrendous', but if you think so, then you think so.

It has an early split. That's about it.

I've never said there's anything wrong with 12. But the idea that 14 will mean the end of football is silly.

I never said that. 14 isn't the end of the world but it's worse than the current situation.

You seem to be working from the starting point that we have to reconstruct due to the circumstances. We very much don't.

 

[Ric]

5 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

Personally, I wouldn't have spoken about it to anybody other than McLennan/Doncaster and I would have triggered it weeks ago. I think AB is way too trusting* - which as a human being is a great thing , but as a Chairwoman swimming with sharks, is a weakness.

*e.g. trusting her brother with the stand, trusting Levein could turn things round, trusting how other clubs said they would vote, trusting that the recon panel was serious. And now trusting that Doncaster will get recon?

I'm sure you'll have your own critique of Budge (successful businesswoman, or not) and I'm sure it will be considerably better informed than mine would be purely from being "at the coal face", as it were.

It doesn't really answer the question though. If legal action was in any way a cogent threat, then it would have had the desired effect before now.

[Pet Jeden]

3 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Ach, I can take it, and not embarrassed in the slightest. I’m always a sucker for the incorrect use of a double negative. By the way, I think that you should have an “it” between “fck” and “yourself”. Otherwise it sounds if I’m doing something unspeakable, but maybe that was your intention. 

You might be right. Have I blended two different phrases?

1. Joey fcked it up.

2. Joey is a fck up.

Hmm. I'll sleep on it.

[Guest JTS98]

6 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I never said that. 14 isn't the end of the world but it's worse than the current situation.

You seem to be working from the starting point that we have to reconstruct due to the circumstances. We very much don't.

 

I think you've missed the context of my posts.

Yesterday Greenday and I were looking at the differences between 12 and 14. Then I replied to CoventrySaint's assertion that there was no chance the clubs he mentioned would vote for a 14 by pointing out reasons that it would be in their interest. That's what a discussion is.

I've never said we have to do anything. I do think 14 would be a fair outcome in the circumstances, but the posts you're referring to are part of a conversation about whether a 14-team league is a disaster or not. I think you've missed that.

This is a discussion board. We're allowed to point out the pros of things that other people are only pointing out the cons of.

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

That's what a discussion is.

 

And with that, I'll leave you to argue with others.

[kingjoey]

8 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

You might be right. Have I blended two different phrases?

1. Joey fcked it up.

2. Joey is a fck up.

Hmm. I'll sleep on it.

That seems sensible. 

[Lebowski]

It's a fair way to see it. But Hibs' board would do well to look further down the line than next month's season ticket sales.

You do understand that clubs haven't had any income beyond what fans are putting in out of generosity for 3 months and will require it for probably at least another three? That's half a year's spending without any income other than what fans are paying. So I'd say that clubs looking to the very short term absolutely is what they should do.

 

There's also the fact that the proposal is absolutely shite. A split in February will see any side in the bottom 10/14 but safe from relegation playing 40% of their season with absolutely f**k all to play for. How's that better than now where you have that possible scenario for 13% of the season?

 

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

And with that, I'll leave you to argue with others.

I'm just saying, I don't think you've followed the discussion.

You're putting words in my mouth out of context.

[Ric]

So, wait, are Hearts fans advocating that a split happens in February? That doesn't seem right as surely there would be more than 24 points to play for.

Edited June 12, 2020 by Ric

[topcat(The most tip top)]

6 minutes ago, Lebowski said:

You do understand that clubs haven't had any income beyond what fans are putting in out of generosity for 3 months and will require it for probably at least another three? That's half a year's spending without any income other than what fans are paying. So I'd say that clubs looking to the very short term absolutely is what they should do.

 

There's also the fact that the proposal is absolutely shite. A split in February will see any side in the bottom 10/14 but safe from relegation playing 40% of their season with absolutely f**k all to play for. How's that better than now where you have that possible scenario for 13% of the season?

 

Your memories of Pat Fenlon may be misting over already  but having watched a relegation struggle more recently than you I'm pretty sure  I'd have had more fun watching a "meaningless" coast into mid table repectability.

Edited June 12, 2020 by topcat(The most tip top)