League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[JamesM82]

4 hours ago, C4mmy31 said:

out of curiosity......

What would happen if clubs were to abstain from voting ?

Could Budge take the SPFL and its member clubs to court if as the law states, an abstention is neither classed as a Yes or No vote ?

 

Abstaining has the same effect as voting no. You have to positively vote for a resolution for it to be enacted.

The Stenhousemuir chairman McMenemy has been quoted as saying the latest SPFL consultation states that anyone who doesn't respond will be assumed to be voting no. McMenemy says he won't respond to the latest thing because he's cheesed off with the whole process, and doesn't see any point in responding unless and until the Premiership teams positively vote for something.

[Lofarl]

You are smoking crack if you think Hibs will vote for this.

[Zing.]

4 minutes ago, JamesM82 said:

Abstaining has the same effect as voting no. You have to positively vote for a resolution for it to be enacted.

The Stenhousemuir chairman McMenemy has been quoted as saying the latest SPFL consultation states that anyone who doesn't respond will be assumed to be voting no. McMenemy says he won't respond to the latest thing because he's cheesed off with the whole process, and doesn't see any point in responding unless and until the Premiership teams positively vote for something.

Could’ve saved himself a bit and just said he’s voting no because his *** masterplan was binned. 

[Guest JTS98]

9 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

From a St Johnstone point if view, I'd fully understand it.

This season, if you split after 26 games, we'd be, at least, 12pts clear of relegation places (that's the distance between us and 12th after 26 rounds this season). We had an incredible record against bottom half sides.

We'd then be looking at 14 games where there was no threat of relegation at all. So what's there for St Johnstone to play for in that situation? Position in the bottom half?

So season ticket holders would be getting 13 games before the split, and potentially 7 dead rubbers (which wouldve happened to St Johnstone fans this season). Whereas its 16/17 games;2/3 dead rubbers in the current set up.

Why would they pay full price the next season? I suspect the majority would buy half season tickets as your season could be over by the first week in February anyway.

Relegation is bad, but forcing away season ticket holders is infinitely worse for clubs with small supports.

I see that point, but I don't think this would happen every season to the same club, and I don't think it would have the devastating effect on supports some are claiming.

Would Ross County fans really be devastated with a season or two of mid-table top-flight football? I doubt it. It would be among the best seasons they've ever had. Same stands for Accies. And I think St Mirren fans might find it fine when they've recently faced backs-to-the-wall relegation battles. Being mid-table is not the worst thing in the world. There are football clubs the world over who routinely finish mid-table, win nothing, but do fine.

People go to the football to see their mates. They go because they like watching football. They go because it's a hobby. I don't think St Johnstone's fans would all bin it because they had the odd season with a boring couple of months.

People talk as if this would be condemning certain clubs to a completely pointless existence. That's just not the case. St Johnstone will finish most seasons in positions other than 7th. So will everybody else.

[Sinner-to-Saint]

4 hours ago, JTS98 said:

County and Hibs (both of whom have spent time in the Championship recently) would be voting:

1) To have much less chance of being relegated than they have now.

2) To be more likely to come straight back up if they were to be relegated.

3) To have derby matches next season.

From a business point of view it's a no-brainer. Same for St Mirren. St Mirren and Accies would be unwise to vote against a 14-team league. It would be good for them. Unless you think greater likelihood of spending more time in the top flight is a bad thing.

Likewise, clubs in the Championship with their eye on promotion would perhaps do well to vote to keep Hearts out the way for next season and to ensure that in the coming years some of the 'big at that level' clubs are kept in the Premiership, making that one automatic slot plus one play-off slot more attainable. They benefit in the same way.

A 14-team top flight with a second tier having one up with one in a play-off is a great deal for Premiership clubs for whom relegation is a regular concern. Harder to go down, easier to come up. That's exactly what these clubs want.

If the boards of Hibs, or St Mirren, or Ross County, or St Johnstone, or Accies were to vote against this, their supporters would be within their rights to send angry letters asking the board to justify voting against something that is clearly of medium and long-term benefit to their club.

Relegation is a concern for all clubs outwith the OF. The current league table is not forever. Hearts had brushes with relegation in the mid-90s and again in 99 before going down in 2014. Hibs went down in 98 and 2014. Aberdeen had a close call in 1995 and were saved by stadium regulations in 2000 before being second-last again in 2004. Dundee United went down in the 90s and again recently. Kilmarnock have had close calls. Motherwell have had close calls. St Johnstone have gone between the divisions. All these clubs know that in time that will come round again.

Running a business isn't just about what's happening this year.

A well written and cogent post, yet had been down-voted twice!?! 

[Dons_1988]

4 hours ago, JTS98 said:

Running a business isn't just about what's happening this year.

Not necessarily saying you're wrong but if clubs like Hibs & Aberdeen voted on the basis of chance of being relegated in an unknown date in the future then that's a grim way for us to be reconstructing.

A completely backwards process from day 1.

[Guest JTS98]

5 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Not necessarily saying you're wrong but if clubs like Hibs & Aberdeen voted on the basis of chance of being relegated in an unknown date in the future then that's a grim way for us to be reconstructing.

A completely backwards process from day 1.

Why does that have to be a negative?

Surely something that gives the club a sounder footing gives greater security and allows for greater development?

Making something safe isn't just about stopping bad things. It's about allowing good things.

We don't just want to control coronavirus to stop people dying, we want people to be safe to enjoy life again, spend money, get the economy going, invent things etc etc.

Edited June 12, 2020 by JTS98

[kingjoey]

17 minutes ago, JamesM82 said:

Abstaining has the same effect as voting no. You have to positively vote for a resolution for it to be enacted.

The Stenhousemuir chairman McMenemy has been quoted as saying the latest SPFL consultation states that anyone who doesn't respond will be assumed to be voting no. McMenemy says he won't respond to the latest thing because he's cheesed off with the whole process, and doesn't see any point in responding unless and until the Premiership teams positively vote for something.

As the result on Monday is purely indicative, abstaining or not has no real effect. 

[kingjoey]

4 hours ago, JTS98 said:

County and Hibs (both of whom have spent time in the Championship recently) would be voting:

1) To have much less chance of being relegated than they have now.

2) To be more likely to come straight back up if they were to be relegated.

3) To have derby matches next season.

From a business point of view it's a no-brainer. Same for St Mirren. St Mirren and Accies would be unwise to vote against a 14-team league. It would be good for them. Unless you think greater likelihood of spending more time in the top flight is a bad thing.

Likewise, clubs in the Championship with their eye on promotion would perhaps do well to vote to keep Hearts out the way for next season and to ensure that in the coming years some of the 'big at that level' clubs are kept in the Premiership, making that one automatic slot plus one play-off slot more attainable. They benefit in the same way.

A 14-team top flight with a second tier having one up with one in a play-off is a great deal for Premiership clubs for whom relegation is a regular concern. Harder to go down, easier to come up. That's exactly what these clubs want.

If the boards of Hibs, or St Mirren, or Ross County, or St Johnstone, or Accies were to vote against this, their supporters would be within their rights to send angry letters asking the board to justify voting against something that is clearly of medium and long-term benefit to their club.

Relegation is a concern for all clubs outwith the OF. The current league table is not forever. Hearts had brushes with relegation in the mid-90s and again in 99 before going down in 2014. Hibs went down in 98 and 2014. Aberdeen had a close call in 1995 and were saved by stadium regulations in 2000 before being second-last again in 2004. Dundee United went down in the 90s and again recently. Kilmarnock have had close calls. Motherwell have had close calls. St Johnstone have gone between the divisions. All these clubs know that in time that will come round again.

Running a business isn't just about what's happening this year.

A serious question for you here, as you seem to have convinced yourself into believing what you’re saying. If we were in a normal situation just now, no Covid 19, no early end to the season and if Hearts had been relegated at the end of a 38 game season, would you be saying what you’re saying and wanting reconstruction to a horrendous 14 team top league. 

[Green Day]

@JTS98 As well as the financial issues obvious to us all - Hibs losing at least one full away end if Hearts are relegated, and similar in the Highland derby - there are some intangibles at play.

The way some people have conducted themselves has not gone unnoticed.

Scott Gardiner put his head above the parapet early on with his allegations about bullying and coercion in the Championship Whatsapp group - he has subsequently been outed as a fantasist and a liar and it is clear that many of the clubs in the then Championship hold that against him. There is no way they want Inverness to get a free leg up courtesy of one of his ex-employers.

The current proposal isnt even by Hearts, but there is a feeling that every single avenue is being explored simply in order to save one club - and that Ann Budge doesnt really care about other clubs as much as she might say.

Clubs will vote in a way that they think least disadvantages them.

[Dons_1988]

3 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Why does that have to be a negative?

Surely something that gives the club a sounder footing gives greater security and allows for greater development?

Making something safe isn't just about stopping bad things. It's about allowing good things.

We don't just want to control coronavirus to stop people dying, we want people to be safe to enjoy life again, spend money, get the economy going, invent things etc etc.

Maybe in the context of a reconstruction that was designed to be a progressive step forward for Scottish football. This isn't. It's a patch up job to avoid legal action.

A permanent reconstruction, with the primary goal of fixing a short term issue affecting 3 clubs, voted for by clubs protecting themselves against relegations that should never really happen is peak Scottish football.

In the list of positives, the trap door being a wee bit smaller should be way down in the list, yet it's basically the only positive for the majority of the league.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

A serious question for you here, as you seem to have convinced yourself into believing what you’re saying. If we were in a normal situation just now, no Covid 19, no early end to the season and if Hearts had been relegated at the end of a 38 game season, would you be saying what you’re saying and wanting reconstruction to a horrendous 14 team top league. 

1) It's not a valid question because Hearts weren't relegated after a 38-game season. Not going back onto that merry-go-round again, but insisting on normal season behaviour in an abnormal season is illogical.

2) Read the thread. We're talking about the merits of different league sizes. I've already said I think 12 is fine. But 14 carries benefits for loads of clubs, as outlined above. I think you have to try really hard to get to 'horrendous' for a 14-team league.

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

Maybe in the context of a reconstruction that was designed to be a progressive step forward for Scottish football. This isn't. It's a patch up job to avoid legal action.

A permanent reconstruction, with the primary goal of fixing a short term issue affecting 3 clubs, voted for by clubs protecting themselves against relegations that should never really happen is peak Scottish football.

In the list of positives, the trap door being a wee bit smaller should be way down in the list, yet it's basically the only positive for the majority of the league.

As I just mentioned to your honourable friend, looking for normality in an abnormal situation is unwise.

The situation is unusual and here we are. As I've mentioned above, I think 12 is fine. I think 14 is fine. I don't see how 16 works at all. But if we have to use an unprecedented situation to change to 14, I don't think that's a disaster.

[flyingscot]

22 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I see that point, but I don't think this would happen every season to the same club, and I don't think it would have the devastating effect on supports some are claiming.

Would Ross County fans really be devastated with a season or two of mid-table top-flight football? I doubt it. It would be among the best seasons they've ever had. Same stands for Accies. And I think St Mirren fans might find it fine when they've recently faced backs-to-the-wall relegation battles. Being mid-table is not the worst thing in the world. There are football clubs the world over who routinely finish mid-table, win nothing, but do fine.

People go to the football to see their mates. They go because they like watching football. They go because it's a hobby. I don't think St Johnstone's fans would all bin it because they had the odd season with a boring couple of months.

People talk as if this would be condemning certain clubs to a completely pointless existence. That's just not the case. St Johnstone will finish most seasons in positions other than 7th. So will everybody else.

Whilst I would continue to go, the season where Gretna were down before the split is probably most clubs thinking behind it. With nothing to play for in the bottom 6 I'm sure clubs started discounting tickets to make punters turn up.

[Guest JTS98]

6 minutes ago, Green Day said:

Clubs will vote in a way that they think least disadvantages them.

It's not a perfect world. The people voting are people. Some will vote based on personal relationships with people involved (good or bad), some will vote on short-term interest, some will vote on long-term interest, some will make good decisions, some will make daft decisions.

There's no real science to this. And we've certainly heard some daft statements from all kinds of clubs with huge logical holes and hypocrisy.

We are where we are.

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

As I just mentioned to your honourable friend, looking for normality in an abnormal situation is unwise.

The situation is unusual and here we are. As I've mentioned above, I think 12 is fine. I think 14 is fine. I don't see how 16 works at all. But if we have to use an unprecedented situation to change to 14, I don't think that's a disaster.

On the assumption we're not planning on reconstructing the leagues every couple of years, rushing through a permanent change for all the wrong reasons when the status quo is adequate (not withstanding some hard done by clubs), I'd say it's pretty risible.

As it is, I still don't believe it's going to happen.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, flyingscot said:

Whilst I would continue to go, the season where Gretna were down before the split is probably most clubs thinking behind it. With nothing to play for in the bottom 6 I'm sure clubs started discounting tickets to make punters turn up.

That could happen any season in any format. One team could be nailed-on relegation certs any season at all.

[flyingscot]

1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

That could happen any season in any format. One team could be nailed-on relegation certs any season at all.

Correct but it's probably what Ross County are thinking of. More scope for that especially if you are 7th or 8th and just shy of 6th place with a big gap to the bottom teams. 

[kingjoey]

1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

1) It's not a valid question because Hearts weren't relegated after a 38-game season. Not going back onto that merry-go-round again, but insisting on normal season behaviour in an abnormal season is illogical.

2) Read the thread. We're talking about the merits of different league sizes. I've already said I think 12 is fine. But 14 carries benefits for loads of clubs, as outlined above. I think you have to try really hard to get to 'horrendous' for a 14-team league.

A couple of things.

Do you understand the word hypothetical?

If you seriously think that having our top league split after 26 games is not horrendous then you’re fooling yourself.

Edited June 12, 2020 by kingjoey

[Coventry Saint]

15 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

That could happen any season in any format. One team could be nailed-on relegation certs any season at all.

This is correct, to be fair.

I'm quite glad they chopped off the eight dead rubbers at the end of last season.