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Sinner-to-Saint

League Reconstruction 20/21 season

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4 minutes ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

It beggars belief that some think there is room for another club in an area already well served by Dunfermline, C'beath, Raith and East Fife. What are they hoping to achieve? I can't see the point unless it is to become bigger/more successful than the clubs already there for the sake of local pride/ego?

Kelty Hearts aren't being magically conjured out of thin air if they join the SPFL. They already exist as a club alongside those other Fife teams and already have their own supporters who are Kelty Hearts fans, not East Fife or Cowdenbeath fans. I'd imagine that what they are hoping to achieve is the same thing that every other club in Scotland is hoping to achieve - to be successful, finish as high in the league as possible and do well in some cups.

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4 hours ago, ahemps said:

I accept my view may be wrong and I may be in the minority with this opinion.

Keep going you're doing well,there is no way in what your saying will end in a cull of clubs and there's no way people on hear will accept that.

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34 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

In which case you're suggesting basically the same situation as we have at the moment only with different badges on some of the blazers.

No I want a more structured tier for the levels club find themselves at. It is only an opinion of mine that some of the smaller clubs in league 1 and 2 have more in common with the highland/lowland league teams so may benefit from being in a similar setup. I would absolutely want these clubs to gain promotion to a smaller but hopefully better quality SPFL of around 30 teams. 

16 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Keep going you're doing well,there is no way in what your saying will end in a cull of clubs and there's no way people on hear will accept that.

 I'm having a mare 😂

I don't want a cull on clubs at all. I realise that's what people are taking from what I am saying which really isn't what I am intending so I'll bow out.

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What is happening with "successful businesswoman Anne Budge's" latest attempt on reconstruction - I heard she was courting other clubs and that a new proposal would be presented last Friday and when that didn't happen there was going to be further discussions over the weekend and the proposals would be brought forward yesterday - is there a new date?

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8 minutes ago, ahemps said:

I don't want a cull on clubs at all. I realise that's what people are taking from what I am saying which really isn't what I am intending so I'll bow out.

You should go for the jugular, if clubs mothball next season they don't deserve to be in the SPFL setup.
Start from there and work your way down,If clubs can't open their gates to the fans then there's no point in paying players that kind of thing.

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19 minutes ago, btb said:

What is happening with "successful businesswoman Anne Budge's" latest attempt on reconstruction - I heard she was courting other clubs and that a new proposal would be presented last Friday and when that didn't happen there was going to be further discussions over the weekend and the proposals would be brought forward yesterday - is there a new date?

Thought I saw yesterday that it would be another 48 hours - so tomorrow.

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23 minutes ago, ahemps said:

No I want a more structured tier for the levels club find themselves at. It is only an opinion of mine that some of the smaller clubs in league 1 and 2 have more in common with the highland/lowland league teams so may benefit from being in a similar setup. I would absolutely want these clubs to gain promotion to a smaller but hopefully better quality SPFL of around 30 teams. 

 I'm having a mare 😂

I don't want a cull on clubs at all. I realise that's what people are taking from what I am saying which really isn't what I am intending so I'll bow out.

lets say you get your top 2 devisions of ( mostly )full time teams in one body , lets call it the spfl  and below that another 20 - 30 teams  of higher standard part time teams which we'll call semi pro, and below that you have glorified amateurs getting paid  "wages  " of petrol & beer money  ( I don't think that's an unfair description of Scottish club football , anyone disagree?)  what would actualy be different in each set up other than the name and media coverage? different from what we have now that is

Edited by effeffsee_the2nd

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23 minutes ago, btb said:

What is happening with "successful businesswoman Anne Budge's" latest attempt on reconstruction - I heard she was courting other clubs and that a new proposal would be presented last Friday and when that didn't happen there was going to be further discussions over the weekend and the proposals would be brought forward yesterday - is there a new date?

Its been submitted apparently.SPFL board meeting tomorrow to discuss it.

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4 minutes ago, djchapsticks said:

Thought I saw yesterday that it would be another 48 hours - so tomorrow.

I'm still in favour of a larger top flight as long as it's not a 1-year deal so I hope that like you & @Sparticus say it's all over one way or another tomorrow.

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2 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

lets say you get your top 2 devisions of ( mostly )full time teams in one body , lets call it the spfl  and below that another 20 - 30 teams  of higher standard part time teams which we'll call semi pro, and below that you have glorified amateurs getting paid  "wages  " of petrol & beer money  ( I don't think that's an unfair description of Scottish club football , anyone disagree?)  what would actualy be different in each set up other than the name and media coverage? different from what we have now that is

That's a very fair point and I agree with you.

By the way this is not something I have a real strong opinion on. I made a comment that there are too many teams in the SPFL and I got pulled apart for it, then I dug a deeper hole trying to explain my thoughts on why I said it. I doubt slimming the SPFL down to 30 or so clubs would solve all or any of the issues in Scottish football.

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1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

Kelty Hearts aren't being magically conjured out of thin air if they join the SPFL. They already exist as a club alongside those other Fife teams and already have their own supporters who are Kelty Hearts fans, not East Fife or Cowdenbeath fans. I'd imagine that what they are hoping to achieve is the same thing that every other club in Scotland is hoping to achieve - to be successful, finish as high in the league as possible and do well in some cups.

On the back of a sugar daddy? Or are the Fife hordes going to flock along is huge numbers?

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1 hour ago, craigkillie said:

Kelty Hearts aren't being magically conjured out of thin air if they join the SPFL. They already exist as a club alongside those other Fife teams and already have their own supporters who are Kelty Hearts fans, not East Fife or Cowdenbeath fans. I'd imagine that what they are hoping to achieve is the same thing that every other club in Scotland is hoping to achieve - to be successful, finish as high in the league as possible and do well in some cups.

And they may not be 'magically' introduced, but when it is £15 to get in how many of the current support will think, eh maybe not?

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6 minutes ago, ahemps said:

That's a very fair point and I agree with you.

By the way this is not something I have a real strong opinion on. I made a comment that there are too many teams in the SPFL and I got pulled apart for it, then I dug a deeper hole trying to explain my thoughts on why I said it. I doubt slimming the SPFL down to 30 or so clubs would solve all or any of the issues in Scottish football.

I think it's best to build strength from the bottom up, I would do this by having an all encompassing pyramid but with separate management of appropriate levels which would have acces and exclusions to different cup competitions,  basically let everyone find their level, that way a promoted teams will be strong enough to make a contribution to the league above and not one who have skelped dross all season only to go on to be relegation fodder the following , how to actualy implement this? f**k knows

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4 minutes ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

And they may not be 'magically' introduced, but when it is £15 to get in how many of the current support will think, eh maybe not?

How many clubs that have joined the SPFL recently have seen supporters say eh maybe not when they see increased prices? Attendances don't fall when clubs get promoted.

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1 minute ago, gogsy said:

 

How many clubs that have joined the SPFL recently have seen supporters say eh maybe not when they see increased prices? Attendances don't fall when clubs get promoted.

How many did Elgin attract last season? 636  (40 miles to nearest other league team)

How many did Edinburgh City attract ? 324 (In a city of 500k)

How many did Annan Athletic attract? 347 (16 miles to nearest other league team)

 

Yep - those new clubs have certainly got the locals flocking along in big numbers - two of whom have no one near them unlike Kelty who have Dunfermline 6 miles and C'beath 3 miles, the latter of whom get a huge 350 average attendance.

And that is all with L2 prices.

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6 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

how to actualy implement this? f**k knows

Leagues 1 and 2 should be like the highland and lowland leagues,Peterhead should not be traveling to annan and Berwick should not be traveling to Elgin.
The central belt should be the cut off point for both leagues,there maybe one or two in between the lines and players are from all over the place but it would save fans and clubs dinero.

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19 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

I think it's best to build strength from the bottom up, I would do this by having an all encompassing pyramid but with separate management of appropriate levels which would have acces and exclusions to different cup competitions,  basically let everyone find their level, that way a promoted teams will be strong enough to make a contribution to the league above and not one who have skelped dross all season only to go on to be relegation fodder the following , how to actualy implement this? f**k knows

Thanks as this is the way I should have put it across as it reflects the way I was thinking.

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2 minutes ago, ahemps said:

Thanks as this is the way I should have put it across as it reflects the way I was thinking.

and I should say how to implement this in a way everyone agrees with and can actually pass with the way the voting structure is, f**k knows.  which basically goes back to the very point you made at the start, the teams at the top and bottom have completely different priorities.  teams lower down the pyramid want at least the possibility of getting a cup run and drawing one of the better supported teams ,  top 6 clubs would rather their players did not risk injury playing against shite ( not necessarily dirty but higher risk ) players in early rounds cup matches they're almost certain to win anyway. some clubs don't have the money or facilities to compete at a higher level but can have relative success at a lower level which keeps provides them with sustenance but never growth.  some clubs have players who are based local to them and don't wish to pay to travel long distances whilst others have a base far away from their home ground and can only maintain this because most of the teams they play are also far away from their home ground. 

Edited by effeffsee_the2nd

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Just now, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

How many did Elgin attract last season? 636  (40 miles to nearest other league team)

How many did Edinburgh City attract ? 324 (In a city of 500k)

How many did Annan Athletic attract? 347 (16 miles to nearest other league team)

 

Yep - those new clubs have certainly got the locals flocking along in big numbers - two of whom have no one near them unlike Kelty who have Dunfermline 6 miles and C'beath 3 miles, the latter of whom get a huge 350 average attendance.

And that is all with L2 prices.

Edinburgh City were getting less than 100 some seasons in the Lowland league, Annan and Elgin wouldn't have been getting as many as they do now when they were non league. Kelty are currently getting more on average at a league game in tier 5 than the likes of Albion Rovers, Annan, Brechin, Cowdenbeath, Edinburgh City and Stranraer and aren't that far behind the attendances of Stirling Albion, Stenhousemuir and Queens Park. Clubs that join the SPFL don't see a drop in their attendances. even with the increase in prices. Nobody is saying that they are going to storm up the leagues but as craigkillie said what is wrong with trying to get up the league as possible and a good run in the cups.

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1 minute ago, SouthLanarkshireWhite said:

How many did Elgin attract last season? 636  (40 miles to nearest other league team)

How many did Edinburgh City attract ? 324 (In a city of 500k)

How many did Annan Athletic attract? 347 (16 miles to nearest other league team)

 

Yep - those new clubs have certainly got the locals flocking along in big numbers

A decent average for Scottish football is 2% of the population goes to games (It's actually a bit less than that but I'm rounding up)

Elgin has a population of 22,138 so they should get 443 going to games. They're getting more than that. Also you're ignoring the fact there is another team in Elgin playing in the Juniors. So really you can half that 443 and they should be getting 221 as they have another club in the town to attract fans. They're doing great. If you mean Moray, as a whole, there are 12 clubs spread across the SPFL, Highland League and Juniors. Moray has a population of 95,520 so an even split would see them have 159 going to games. No matter which you work it Elgin are doing well for themselves.

Annan has a population of 8,389. So they should be getting 168 going to games. Again they're doing above the Scottish average. If you take D&G as the entire area there are 18 clubs in the area and their average of that population would see them getting 165 going to games.

Edinburgh City? Should be getting 798 if you split Edinburgh's population across all clubs. So you could argue they are doing poorly but they do have two big clubs to battle it out with and both Hibs and Hearts tend to get more then 798 for their home games to be fair.

Clyde? One of three clubs in Cumbernauld. Should receive 1,045 per home game if you take them as the only league club in Cumbernauld. 348 if split between three clubs and 523 if split across all clubs in North Lanarkshire.

I think Elgin and Annan are clearly getting a support better than their population would dictate, on average, than most clubs in Scotland and certainly far more than most clubs in the UK or Europe.

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