League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[Real Change Needed]

Encouraging to hear league structure under review but we must get away from playing each team 4 times each season. The repetition is awful and adds nothing (other than so many clubs publicly showing how much they rely and gorge on the scraps from the numbers of old firm away support - how about they get more of their own fans). If clubs can’t manage on their own fans and self generated incomes and need to rely on 2 other clubs to keep them afloat their business model is burst.

If the TV deal has a minimum number of Old Firm matches in it the brokers of such a deal need replaced. It’s scandalous to think any deal would have been based on such terms.

Any restructure needs to be comprehensive. We have 42 clubs in the set-up at present and a lot of talk about bringing in 2 others from Highland and Lowland so here are 2 options that work along similar lines but bring in 4 from the regional leagues. (46 teams in total.)

Option 1

Top flight of 16; 30 game season (home and away once)

2nd tier of 16; 30 game season (home and away once)

3rd tier of 14; 26 games (home and away) then split into 2x7, play another 12 games (home and away) so 38 game season. Only this tier has a model where teams play each other 4 times.

2 up 2 down on each league, forgetplay-offs, they belittle a league campaign - ridiculous that a team can be a dozen points or more over a season behind another then pip a competitor to promotion based on 1 or 2 matches. The league is not a cup, never should be...

Scrap the league cup; it’s redundant, attendances are poor, no European place and frankly does anyone really care about it, there is no need for 2 domestic cup competitions.

Scottish Cup: Make it 2 leg from Rd 1 to QF’s: make all higher league clubs enter the competition earlier that way if they get a cup run they get a good number of games. If 2 legs are good enough for UEFA competitions why not domestic ones.

Option 2:

Top flight of 18; 34 game season (home and away once)

2nd tier of 18; 34 game season (home and away once)

3rd tier of 10; same as current model games (home and away twice). Only league to have 4 games against same teams.

2 up 2 down again or be brave, make it 4 up and 4 down between top flight and 2nd tier.

Scrap league cup and 2 leg Scottish Cup as above.

[flood]

2 hours ago, bennett said:

Proper pitches to play on.

True. These hybrid pitches are dangerous. They are also dreadful. Check Ibrox and Tynecastle

 

better with Astro 

[Sinner-to-Saint]

25 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Personally I think it should be a 10 team top flight

 

 

Presumably with no split? I think the split makes the league a lot more exciting, and this season the relegation dogfight looked really interesting.

[Real Change Needed]

5 hours ago, Marinello said:

Me as one of the ' auld yins' who vividly remembers the 18 team top league set up before 1974 , I have to say that as a supporter of Motherwell who were almost always mid table at the time I found the arrangement to be terrible.

Basically having no chance of Europe , little risk of relegation and invariably papped out of both cups early, we found ourselves as early as February with nothing to play for. Consequently our attendances plummeted sometimes getting as low as 2,000 when up against clubs in a similar position. 

So for all I understand why some others see the attraction of playing each other only twice and blooding more youngsters the reality is that this is considerably outweighed by the drop in attendances , loss of revenue and the mind numbing boredom when playing games that don't matter. Contrast with just now when invariably deep into the season all clubs have something to play for.

Therefore I would recommend that unless we can retain the current arrangement ( which with Dundee's quid pro quo making this unlikely) I would go reluctantly with an increase to 14. But I would insist on keeping the play offs which to me have been brilliant.

 

 

Why doesn’t England, Spain, France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Netherlands, Russia, Turkey, Greece and all the others around the world scrap their larger leagues and follow the model we have then. Small leagues are dull and repetitive. Attendances outside the big 4 or 5 are low anyway, that’s because the quality of entertainment is poor not anything to do with league size. 

[third lanark]

33 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Personally I think it should be a 10 team top flight

 

 

If you don’t mine me asking why 10 instead of 14, 16 or any other number?

[Lebowski]

At the moment does each club play one of the arse cheeks twice at home and the other twice away pre-split? I fear what may kill off any reconstruction that involves splitting after 2 rounds is the smaller clubs being afraid to lose their 3rd home OF game

This is totally overstated. The most tickets that I think anyone in the league gives the OF is St Johnstone with about 7k. At 25 quid a ticket that's 175k. Minus VAT, minus additional operating costs on top of that. So the club most advantaged by that are maybe clearing about 120k. St Johnstone have a turnover of about 5m so that represents ~2% of that.

It's not an irrelevant amount of money, but it's also not game changing either. It certainly shouldn't be anything like a deal breaker for any club.

[realmadrid]

3 minutes ago, Lebowski said:

This is totally overstated. The most tickets that I think anyone in the league gives the OF is St Johnstone with about 7k. At 25 quid a ticket that's 175k. Minus VAT, minus additional operating costs on top of that. So the club most advantaged by that are maybe clearing about 120k. St Johnstone have a turnover of about 5m so that represents ~2% of that.

It's not an irrelevant amount of money, but it's also not game changing either. It certainly shouldn't be anything like a deal breaker for any club.

And we would be replacing a second game with Celtic or Rangers with visits from the Dundee sides, both of which are more attractive to home fans and bring a large away support to Perth. 

Im not saying that would be the case for everyone but we would be ok.

[Todd_is_God]

What about 16-18-10

-16 teams in the First Division. Split after 30 games. Total games 37.

15th & 16th down automatically, 14th in a playoff.

-18 teams in the Second Division. 34 games. 1st and 2nd promoted, 3rd into a playoff.

17th and 18th relegated, 16th into a playoff.

-10 teams in the Third Division. 36 games.1st and 2nd promoted. 3rd into playoff.

10th relegated.

Highland and Lowland leagues in at Tier 4

With regional feeder leagues below these, as far down as desired by local associations. No reason why amateur leagues cannot be included here also should they wish to join the system.

Introduce a Super Cup for Cup Winner v League Winner (or runner up if a club does the double). Gives greater potential for covetted 4th Rangers v Celtic game if this is a deal breaker.

In Germany, if a club in the top two tiers is drawn against a club outwith the top two tiers in the cup, the lower league team is always at home. All qualified clubs enter the cup at Round 1. In August. This leads to some excellent shocks. Would a similar system here appeal, if instead of the top two tiers it applied to outwith the top tier?

Edited April 16, 2020 by Todd_is_God

[PauloPerth]

53 minutes ago, realmadrid said:

And we would be replacing a second game with Celtic or Rangers with visits from the Dundee sides, both of which are more attractive to home fans and bring a large away support to Perth. 

Im not saying that would be the case for everyone but we would be ok.

Plus it would be guaranteed points in the bag against a couple of diddy outfits incapable of getting promoted on their own merit.

[Lebowski]

And we would be replacing a second game with Celtic or Rangers with visits from the Dundee sides, both of which are more attractive to home fans and bring a large away support to Perth. 
Im not saying that would be the case for everyone but we would be ok.

It wasn't really specifically St Johnstone I was making the point about tbh, it was more that your club is the biggest beneficiaries of big Celtic and Rangers supports, and even then a third game is nothing like a game changing amount of money from it for you. Every other club is less affected than that.

[Lebowski]

It makes no difference. Given the facts of the current structure it is more likely Aberdeen will drop points against Dundee or ICT than celtic or sevco. Kilmarnock last season demonstrated that the Ugly Sisters can be matched head-on, but raising your game against the US is pointless if you scatter points to the four winds against The Rest.
Having said that, if, for example, Kilmarnock were within 4 points of the leaders  in a 16 team league after 22 games the whole dynamic would change for the 8 game run-in. Whereas, last season, with 16 games left the smaller  squad meant injuries & suspensions played a bigger role...probably.  It needs that consistency against all teams though, not just raising your game against celtic and sevco.
I wouldn't mind giving it a go, just to see, but it is never going to happen because the 5 biggest city clubs are money grabbing twonks.

I think Hearts would have won the league in 1998 if they had even a passable record v Celtic and Rangers that season? If memory serves they picked up something like 3/24 points v them and didn't finish that far behind at all. I'm certain that Hibs took more points off Celtic and Rangers that season, and we can't have taken many given that we got relegated!

[Green Day]

6 hours ago, Real Change Needed said:

Attendances outside the big 4 or 5 are low anyway, that’s because the quality of entertainment is poor not anything to do with league size. 

Do you think it might also have something to do with the size of the towns where smaller clubs draw their support from?

[tree house tam]

8 hours ago, Real Change Needed said:

Why doesn’t England, Spain, France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Netherlands, Russia, Turkey, Greece and all the others around the world scrap their larger leagues and follow the model we have then. Small leagues are dull and repetitive.

 

Attendances outside the big 4 or 5 are low anyway, that’s because the quality of entertainment is poor not anything to do with league size. 

 Point 1, All those countries have greater populations than tiny wee Scotland. 

Point 2, like Hearts crowds this season have been due to the entertainment on show.

I'd also add, imagine joining a forum with your username and posting solely about reconstruction, minter.

 

[Donathan]

Aye, I think they usually get three games against the Old Firm, but if it was a 6/8 split, they'd get two extra home games so would be compensated.

[tree house tam]

7 hours ago, Lebowski said:

8 hours ago, realmadrid said:

And we would be replacing a second game with Celtic or Rangers with visits from the Dundee sides, both of which are more attractive to home fans and bring a large away support to Perth. 
Im not saying that would be the case for everyone but we would be ok.

It wasn't really specifically St Johnstone I was making the point about tbh, it was more that your club is the biggest beneficiaries of big Celtic and Rangers supports, and even then a third game is nothing like a game changing amount of money from it for you. Every other club is less affected than that.

Also you need to remember it was only 3 games this season that this was the case, it was also just a trial. A trial that worked tbf.

St Johnstone will be fine.

Edited April 17, 2020 by tree house tam

[Doonhamer1969]

21 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

A 7-7 split provides 38 games for both sections in the top tier with 40 fixture dates. Might work better than a 6-8 split. The other three divisions could stick at 10 if Kelty and Brora are added.

That's what I was thinking .

The only snag with that is that it leaves a team idle on the last day ,perhaps sitting waiting for other results re,say ,Europa League qualification.

It does mean an even number of games though ,32 for the whole league.

[djchapsticks]

9 hours ago, Real Change Needed said:

Why doesn’t England, Spain, France, Germany, Belgium, Italy, Netherlands, Russia, Turkey, Greece and all the others around the world scrap their larger leagues and follow the model we have then. Small leagues are dull and repetitive. Attendances outside the big 4 or 5 are low anyway, that’s because the quality of entertainment is poor not anything to do with league size. 

Outside the big 4 or 5, Scottish attendances are much larger on average than Greece. There are plenty of arguments for a 16/18 team league. Having pish attendances is not one of them.

There are also several teams in the Belgian, Turkish and Russian top leagues that we have higher average attendances than, despite being a country several times smaller in terms of populous. 

 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Currently wondering why Russia (population 144 million, over 100 professional clubs) doesn't have smaller leagues.

[RandomGuy.]

Attendance per capita.

Overall attendance.

That's European top flights. In terms of population, Scotland is 25th.

Clearly we're doing something wrong, crowds are shite you see.

[invergowrie arab]

5 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Attendance per capita.

Overall attendance.

That's European top flights. In terms of population, Scotland is 25th.

Clearly we're doing something wrong, crowds are shite you see.

But the 1950s!!