League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[Jacksgranda]

6 hours ago, TheScarf said:

When did the phrase ‘as a club’ become a thing? 

Fitzpatrick there, Falkirk about 8 times every statement they release, Livingston said it in theirs too I think. 

What the f**k else would you be saying this as, a fucking funfair, an escalator?

"as the holding company that runs the club." Were you not paying attention in 2012?

Edited May 21, 2020 by Jacksgranda
sllepnig

[wastecoatwilly]

5 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

One rare decent point Tom English made recently was that it's one thing for club chairmen to be sympathetic/open minded about reconstruction but an entirely different matter for that to be converted into voting for it.

Do you think self interest is a bad thing?

[Dons_1988]

7 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Do you think self interest is a bad thing?

That's quite a broad question.

[Ludo*1]

1 hour ago, wastecoatwilly said:

That's funny you answered your own question it doesn't matter if it's a borefest you still watch it.
SKY are all about viewing figures and Scottish football is full  of derbies.
Aberdeen will be delighted if cove get their act together.

I'd watch Junior level games if they were on the TV regularly.

[Arch Stanton]

 

 

[craigkillie]

I've been trying to think about this a bit, and my view is that the current structure is pretty good and doesn't need much changing, so I was trying to work out if there was a way to have a temporary reconstruction without actually disadvantaging teams who've earned their place in next season's Premiership, and I think I maybe have something. It's not perfect, but I think it could be a workable solution. Essentially, you make it so that the extra relegation places introduced to take things back to normal are more likely to be allocated to the clubs who benefit from expansion in the first place.

Expand the league to 14 teams, but with two different categories of teams. Let's say that the 12 current Premiership clubs are called Premiership A teams and the added Championship clubs (eg Hearts and Inverness) are Premiership B clubs. Play out a full season as normal, with everyone playing everyone as usual (eg a 6/8 or 7/7 split).

At the end of the season, the top 10 Premiership A teams stay up, regardless of where they finish in the overall league table. This makes it exactly the same as normal for them - you have to finish above 2 current Premiership clubs to stay up. The 11th Premiership A club gets a play-off place, and the 12th Premiership A club is relegated, which again is absolutely normal.

If the leading Premiership B team finishes in the top 10 of the overall league, they get to stay up. If they finish 11th they take part in the play-offs. If they finish 12th or below they are relegated.

If the other Premiership B team finishes in the top 11 of the overall league, they take part in the play-offs. If not, they are relegated.

The top 3 clubs from the Championship also participate in the play-offs, alongside the Premiership clubs who have qualified. These play-offs will either have 4 or 5 clubs in them, playing for either 1 or 2 promotion spots, depending on the outcome of the Premiership, but it is easy enough to scheduled two different possible play-off systems (both weighted in favour of higher league finishes, with the 11th Premiership A club and the Championship winners ranked highest). It could also be a mini-league system instead.

The biggest downside is that the Championship winners wouldn't get automatic promotion, but it seems likely Hearts will skoosh that league next season anyway, so the clubs may grudgingly accept it as a one off if there's a financial incentive of some sort. An alternative would be to have the same system, but with a 16 team top flight and 4 "Premiership B" clubs, with similar rules in place for getting things back to normal.

I think it's pie in the sky nonsense which the clubs will never go for, but it does perhaps come closest to the concept of "fairness" in a temporary reconstruction.


EDIT: Just as an example, suppose the table ended as below. The top 11 here would stay up - Inverness as a Premiership B team who finished in the top 10, and Dundee United as one of the top 10 Premiership A clubs. Hearts and St Mirren would go down automatically. Accies would enter the play-offs alongside the top 3 from the Championship.

If Hearts had finished 11th instead of 12th, United would still have stayed up, but Hearts would also have entered those play-offs. If Inverness had finished 11th instead of 10th, they would have entered the play-offs, but there would have been 2 promotion places up for grabs via them.

1. Killie
2. Celtic
3. Rangers
4. Motherwell
5. Aberdeen
6. Livingston
7. St Johnstone
8. Hibs
9. Ross County
10. Inverness
11. Dundee United
12. Hearts
13. Hamilton
14. St Mirren

Edited May 21, 2020 by craigkillie

[btb]

54 minutes ago, Arch Stanton said:

 

 

Lucky Alex is no longer First Minister...

[wastecoatwilly]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

That's quite a broad question.

Ok, do you think self interest is stopping clubs voting on reconstruction?

[Coventry Saint]

11 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

Ok, do you think self interest is stopping clubs voting on reconstruction?

It's an odd one. In terms of dodging future relegations, you'd have to say a bigger league would be better for a club like ours. Even if it was a temporary fix and three teams went down in one season, it's no measurably different to having to finish 11th or higher now. 

The problem is the same things that it always comes down to: the problematic fixture arrangements, the further spread of resources, and the fact it simply doesn't need doing.

The idea of expanding the league just to save Hearts is mad as a box of twats and nothing will convince me otherwise.

[TonyFerrino]

19 hours ago, Ludo*1 said:

If you've no interest in my opinion, why question me in the first place?

Your final sentence is spot on. It's pretty unanimous that bar a few famous outliers, the Edinburgh Derby is a turgid watch for the neutral.

Oh you.

When the hammer throwers are plying their trade in the Championship you'll soon see the resson for the turgidness of an Edinburgh derby.  Can't wait to watch them against Dundee on BBC Alba mind.  A great advert for the Scottish game.  

[Ludo*1]

1 minute ago, TonyFerrino said:

Oh you.

When the hammer throwers are plying their trade in the Championship you'll soon see the resson for the turgidness of an Edinburgh derby.  Can't wait to watch them against Dundee on BBC Alba mind.  A great advert for the Scottish game.  

I remember Hearts shitfesting, hoofball tactics well.

[TonyFerrino]

3 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

I remember Hearts shitfesting, hoofball tactics well.

Their tactics would likely be more effective if they didn't default to putting an 18 stone geezer with two left feet up as the target man.  

Said geezer would still score against Hibs, naturally, but continually fall on his arse at all other times.  I'll miss them.   

[wastecoatwilly]

33 minutes ago, Coventry Saint said:

It's an odd one. In terms of dodging future relegations, you'd have to say a bigger league would be better for a club like ours. Even if it was a temporary fix and three teams went down in one season, it's no measurably different to having to finish 11th or higher now. 

The problem is the same things that it always comes down to: the problematic fixture arrangements, the further spread of resources, and the fact it simply doesn't need doing.

The idea of expanding the league just to save Hearts is mad as a box of twats and nothing will convince me otherwise.

The thing is it's not just hearts to think about here whether it's fair or not,I also get the winners and losers argument.
In a sporting context hearts deserve to go down but the jags don't.
If your looking through a fans view then get doon but as a business model you want hearts in the top flight.
For me this is where the self interest comes to a head and SKY flex their muscles.
Clubs will vote on self interest and the dinero.

[Pet Jeden]

3 hours ago, craigkillie said:

I've been trying to think about this a bit, and my view is that the current structure is pretty good and doesn't need much changing, so I was trying to work out if there was a way to have a temporary reconstruction without actually disadvantaging teams who've earned their place in next season's Premiership, and I think I maybe have something. It's not perfect, but I think it could be a workable solution. Essentially, you make it so that the extra relegation places introduced to take things back to normal are more likely to be allocated to the clubs who benefit from expansion in the first place.

Expand the league to 14 teams, but with two different categories of teams. Let's say that the 12 current Premiership clubs are called Premiership A teams and the added Championship clubs (eg Hearts and Inverness) are Premiership B clubs. Play out a full season as normal, with everyone playing everyone as usual (eg a 6/8 or 7/7 split).

At the end of the season, the top 10 Premiership A teams stay up, regardless of where they finish in the overall league table. This makes it exactly the same as normal for them - you have to finish above 2 current Premiership clubs to stay up. The 11th Premiership A club gets a play-off place, and the 12th Premiership A club is relegated, which again is absolutely normal.

If the leading Premiership B team finishes in the top 10 of the overall league, they get to stay up. If they finish 11th they take part in the play-offs. If they finish 12th or below they are relegated.

If the other Premiership B team finishes in the top 11 of the overall league, they take part in the play-offs. If not, they are relegated.

The top 3 clubs from the Championship also participate in the play-offs, alongside the Premiership clubs who have qualified. These play-offs will either have 4 or 5 clubs in them, playing for either 1 or 2 promotion spots, depending on the outcome of the Premiership, but it is easy enough to scheduled two different possible play-off systems (both weighted in favour of higher league finishes, with the 11th Premiership A club and the Championship winners ranked highest). It could also be a mini-league system instead.

The biggest downside is that the Championship winners wouldn't get automatic promotion, but it seems likely Hearts will skoosh that league next season anyway, so the clubs may grudgingly accept it as a one off if there's a financial incentive of some sort. An alternative would be to have the same system, but with a 16 team top flight and 4 "Premiership B" clubs, with similar rules in place for getting things back to normal.

I think it's pie in the sky nonsense which the clubs will never go for, but it does perhaps come closest to the concept of "fairness" in a temporary reconstruction.


EDIT: Just as an example, suppose the table ended as below. The top 11 here would stay up - Inverness as a Premiership B team who finished in the top 10, and Dundee United as one of the top 10 Premiership A clubs. Hearts and St Mirren would go down automatically. Accies would enter the play-offs alongside the top 3 from the Championship.

If Hearts had finished 11th instead of 12th, United would still have stayed up, but Hearts would also have entered those play-offs. If Inverness had finished 11th instead of 10th, they would have entered the play-offs, but there would have been 2 promotion places up for grabs via them.

1. Killie
2. Celtic
3. Rangers
4. Motherwell
5. Aberdeen
6. Livingston
7. St Johnstone
8. Hibs
9. Ross County
10. Inverness
11. Dundee United
12. Hearts
13. Hamilton
14. St Mirren

On the plus side - it's fairer. On the minus side, at the end of the season the SPFL would have to ask you personally for a ruling on who's up and who's down. Because it's fkn complicated.

Would this work down through the leagues? Because Partick and Falkirk are even more fcked over by this whole "let's pretend we finished" malarkey.

Edited May 21, 2020 by Pet Jeden

[Lex]

There will be no reconstruction in the short to medium term as the clubs aren’t interested in voting for it. Righty so.

Close thread.

[Nowhereman]

I mean you can't just simply do it. If you have the money and think "I want to buy Albion Rovers over and replace them with another club" you can't just do it. It's not simply a case of just having the money to do it.
Why has it not been done before save for that one time, in which it was done under exceptional circumstances that we almost certainly won't see repeated? Why have Celtic not bought over say, Annan, and replaced them with Celtic B? Why did Rangers never buy over say, East Stirlingshire, and replace them with Rangers B?
Or why don't Celtic buy over Cumbernauld Colts and keep the name but make it Celtic B by having a load of players sign for them (essentially they'll still be under the employ of Celtic) on window to window deals and loans?
 
Cove were wanting in to the league for years. They have a bit of cash. Why didn't they buy Brechin over and then rename and relocate back to Cove before the playoffs were in place? Kelty Hearts are annoyed that the playoffs this season are not going ahead. Why don't they buy Brechin over and rename and relocate?

You can just buy over a club. If you have the money you can buy the shares. However you need the sfa/spfl permission to change the clubs name. That’s is exactly what airdrie did. Airdrie are Clydebank in all but name. How they were given permission is another story

[Pet Jeden]

3 hours ago, wastecoatwilly said:

The thing is it's not just hearts to think about here whether it's fair or not,I also get the winners and losers argument.
In a sporting context hearts deserve to go down but the jags don't.
If your looking through a fans view then get doon but as a business model you want hearts in the top flight.
For me this is where the self interest comes to a head and SKY flex their muscles.
Clubs will vote on self interest and the dinero.

SKY will indeed flex their muscles. But it won't be to demand that the glorious Hearts get reinstated. It will be to tell Doncaster that unless  the SPFL can fulfil the contract to the very last letter, then they can forget £30m pa. That was for X number of games, starting in August, with a crowd and an atmosphere. Well, with the exception of St Johnstone games.  And it was before SKY themselves were skint because their customers have been melting away since March.

[Lebowski]

First-If the SPFL experts cant squeeze more money out of Sky, how do you expect a bitter old woman with a self interested motive to do it?
Second-Trial is just another word for temporary.Like Budge when she was told no re construction last time she said ok we'll rejig it then,Rearrange it?Different words,same meaning, same outcome.No.
Third- Yer lucks ran out.

She never even presented anything at the last meeting. They asked for opinions and were told by six clubs they didn't want it. It wasn't quibbling over details, it was "No, we don't want it".

[Frank Grimes]

Budge the morn

 

[Ric]

You know what would be a hoot? The vote for reconstruction happens but the SPFL say it can't be implemented immediately and can only be put into place for the 21/22 season.