League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[Dunning1874]

35 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Making United win a play-off is no more unfair than denying Hearts the chance to stay up.

One considers sporting merit and punishes a club for performing badly, a situation they had the opportunity to avoid by not being the worst team in the division in the games which could be completed before the season had to be cut short in exceptional circumstances. One abandons sporting merit and punishes a club who have performed well, who had no opportunity to do anything differently to avoid this outcome.

No one who does not have an emotional investment in either side can seriously claim that denying Dundee United promotion would not be massively more unfair than relegating Hearts.

I note that you have at least progressed to a playoff argument rather than the 'cancel everything' argument which was previously favoured by Hearts fans, but this now means you're going to have to find a practical solution to when these playoffs are played, and how on earth clubs can be expected to build squads if these playoffs take place just before next season starts and they don't know what division they'll be in until a week before the first league game.

The reality is that no Hearts, Partick or Stranraer fans have been able to provide any argument which adequately explains why, in a situation where unfairness is unavoidable, a solution that punishes other clubs is fairer than punishing the clubs who are bottom of the league on the merit of the games which have been played. Every single argument is a non-sequitur, masking the reality that all they really have to say is 'it shouldn't be my club because I don't want it to be.'

While it's undeniable that this isn't fair, we're also weeks past the point where you need to dry your fucking eyes.

[Sparticus]

This was all meant to be over.

This is what this whole pile of crap was about all along.That vote was for to end the season on ppg with top club champions and bottom club relegated.

The clubs voted yes.The vote was attacked by the self interested clubs who didnt like the outcome and these clubs tried to void the vote.

They failed by a big margin.So league placings stand are final.Meanwhile the self interested clubs are told there will be no reconstruction of the leagues.Clubs dont want it, fans dont want it only the clubs who failed this season want it.

 

Clubs have finished bottom,it IS FAIR.just get doon.

 

 

[bennett]

26 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

This is where you get asked how you end this season, and restart next season, without negatively affecting any club.

You inevitably dont answer, and we've all just wasted precious 

There's always ways it just depends on whether or not people are willing to listen and not be swayed by petty self interests. 

 

One way could have been to finish the season, that way there could have been no complaints if unfairness. Then a shorter following season. 

Another way could have been using play offs, if we can play cup games then its possible. 

Surely there must be a method of reconstruction which could reconcile everyone.... 

Give the newest team in each league the title while relegating the oldest team.

Null and void would be slightly fairer than finishing as it is but would still leave complaints from Dundee United.

Or we could go with the current idea which primarily benefits one team. 

[FTOF]

2 hours ago, JTS98 said:

So, indulge me.

How do you think you'd have responded to this if it had happened a year ago with St Mirren bottom of the league?

Keep in mind that St Mirren stayed up...

Bear in mind that St.Mirren were on an upward trajectory, and were actually getting significantly better due to the quality of our January window signings.

Hearts , on the other hand, despite spunking hundreds of thousands of pounds, were still completely shite.

Get doon.

Edited May 16, 2020 by FTOF

[Aim Here]

2 minutes ago, Sparticus said:

They failed by a big margin.So league placings stand are final.Meanwhile the self interested clubs are told there will be no reconstruction of the leagues.Clubs dont want it, fans dont want it only the clubs who failed this season want it.

To be fair to Anne Budge, there was no definitive, formal, slapdown of the league reconstruction proposal. Just an informal meeting with the Premiership where they told Budge where they stand, which was 'nowhere near where you need us to stand'. She is entitled to have a go at putting something in writing in front of the full SPFL and having it slapped down as a last throw of the dice. That was probably the price of John Nelms vote so she might as well use it.

[Green Day]

1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

You're a Green Day, mate

I assume that means he is a warrior poet, general gid c**t?

[arabdelic]

4 minutes ago, bennett said:

There's always ways it just depends on whether or not people are willing to listen and not be swayed by petty self interests. 

 

One way could have been to finish the season, that way there could have been no complaints if unfairness. Then a shorter following season. 

Another way could have been using play offs, if we can play cup games then its possible. 

Surely there must be a method of reconstruction which could reconcile everyone.... 

Give the newest team in each league the title while relegating the oldest team.

Null and void would be slightly fairer than finishing as it is but would still leave complaints from Dundee United.

Or we could go with the current idea which primarily benefits one team. 

I wonder why you think its fair to null and void a season where Rangers won nothing and their great rivals heading for 9IAR. 

Leaving that aside null and void would reward the teams that did badly and penalise the ones the had a great season. 

 

Benefit Hearts, Partick, Stranraer

Penalise Celtic, Dundee United, Raith Rovers, Cove Rangers 

 

No not having your logic. 

 

 

 

[Golden Gordon]

It's impossible to finish the remaining eight games in the SPL as a result of coronavirus.  It could be argued that it is unfair for Hearts to be relegated as a result of this.  However, as these games can't be played, the only indication we have of future form must be based on previous form.  Hearts' last eight Premiership results are as follows: 

St. Mirren 1 - 0 Hearts; Hearts 1 - 1 Motherwell; Hibernian 1 - 3 Hearts; Hearts 1 - 0 Rangers; Hearts 2 - 2 Hamilton; Celtic 5 - 0 Hearts; Hearts 2 - 3 Kilmarnock; St. Johnstone 3 - 3 Hearts.

Taking these last eight results as a benchmark, it could be argued that Hearts remaining eight games would gain them an additional nine points, having them finish the season on 32 points.

If you do the same for Hamilton:

Hamilton 1 - 0 Kilmarnock; Rangers 0 - 1 Hamilton; Hamilton 1 - 0 Motherwell; Hearts 2 - 2 Hamilton; Hamilton 1 - 3 Aberdeen; St. Mirren 1 - 1 Hamilton; Hamilton 1 - 4 Celtic; Hamilton 2 - 4 Livingston.

Using previous form as a guide, Hamilton would gain 11 points, finishing the season on 38 points.

If it's fair game to compare hypothetical situations between Hearts & St. Mirren, I thought I'd do the same between Hearts & Hamilton see what happened...   

[Sparticus]

4 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

To be fair to Anne Budge, there was no definitive, formal, slapdown of the league reconstruction proposal. Just an informal meeting with the Premiership where they told Budge where they stand, which was 'nowhere near where you need us to stand'. She is entitled to have a go at putting something in writing in front of the full SPFL and having it slapped down as a last throw of the dice. That was probably the price of John Nelms vote so she might as well use it.

A club that can somehow get away free off a 26M debt? I'm hugely wary of them but i see what your saying.

[bennett]

1 minute ago, arabdelic said:

I wonder why you think its fair to null and void a season where Rangers won nothing and their great rivals heading for 9IAR. 

Leaving that aside null and void would reward the teams that did badly and penalise the ones the had a great season. 

 

Benefit Hearts, Partick, Stranraer

Penalise Celtic, Dundee United, Raith Rovers, Cove Rangers 

 

No not having your logic. 

 

 

 

I wasn't endorsing it, merely musing different ideas and plusses and failings.

 

I'm sure you'll retract your tawdry post.

[TonyFerrino]

55 minutes ago, bennett said:

80% of games,  not 100% of games. 

 

What's happened to Scottish football, no club deserves to be negatively affected by what's happening. 

Is a wee bit of solidarity too much to ask for.....

I thought everyone was in agreement that Hearts should be going down?  Can't be any more unified than that.

[Gorgie greatness]

2 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

More mewling shite from Budge - it's utterly embarrassing - you'd think that Hearts were the only team being hard done by.

 

Half the fucking teams in the leagues are hard done by this - but shite happens - get over yourselves.

 

Does taking the Lawell green pound fall iunder shit happens? 

It still has to pass the putin-esque SPFL democracy of 11/1. Our dear neighbours will be digging out the fountain pens they used to write Lithuanian love letters with, should get a better response from the hibs board I suppose 

[Ric]

24 minutes ago, Golden Gordon said:

Hearts' last eight Premiership results are as follows

 

This is the Achilles heel of the "but we might have stayed up" argument. As has been pointed out the facts of the matter are very clear..

They are bottom of the league after 30 games,  they are bottom of the form league for 6 games, they are below the other teams around them in the form league for the last 10 games. This season they have have failed to beat the club directly above them, they have failed to beat the club 2 places directly above them and their manager has failed to put out a team that is capable of beating a team 3 places above them.

The idea that some Lazarus miracle was about to happen is fanciful to say the least.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Ric

[Pet Jeden]

55 minutes ago, Gianfranco said:

Money to sponsors and tv companies. Plus all finances would have to be shared equally since no one technically finished anywhere, which they just wouldn’t agree on. Pretty much the same reason we couldn’t do it here.

This is nonsense.

1.TV and sponsors  contracts may well mean that they are due some money back for games that are not now being played. Fck all to do with what status conferred by the 30 games actually played.

2. If the full fixture list is never to be played, the clubs can vote to decide how to divvy up the outstanding prize money. 

[Aim Here]

1 minute ago, Pet Jeden said:

This is nonsense.

1.TV and sponsors  contracts may well mean that they are due some money back for games that are not now being played. Fck all to do with what status conferred by the 30 games actually played.

Depends on the nature of the sponsorship, doesn't it? Won't Ladbrokes, at the very least, demand their money back for being the sponsors of a competition that the competitors decided wasn't going to exist anymore? I can't think they'd be happy to see their cash go into the 'prize' pool with nothing to show for it.

1 minute ago, Pet Jeden said:

2. If the full fixture list is never to be played, the clubs can vote to decide how to divvy up the outstanding prize money. 

They can. But if you think for a second clubs will vote to do anything other than share the finances evenly on a voided season, you're absolutely delusional.

[TonyFerrino]

5 minutes ago, Ric said:

This is the Achilles heel of the "but we might have stayed up" argument. As has been pointed out the facts of the matter are very clear..

They are bottom of the league after 30 games,  they are bottom of the form league for 6 games, they are below the other teams around them in the form league for the last 10 games. This season they have have failed to beat the club directly above them, they have failed to beat the club 2 places directly above them and their manager has failed to put out a team that is capable of beating a team 3 places above them.

The idea that some Lazarus miracle was about to happen is fanciful to say the least.

This is the absolute crux of the matter - they're bottom because they've been mince for absolutely ages, not just a couple of games which is what they seem to be suggestion with "expulsion" this and that chat.  The world grinding to a halt is hardly a regular occurrence and, unfortunately for them, their arse was the one hanging oot the windae when the music stopped. 

I would have preferred it to be have been one of the uglies but I'll take it being them.  Sorry lads, see youse later on. 

[Pet Jeden]

7 minutes ago, Ric said:

This is the Achilles heel of the "but we might have stayed up" argument. As has been pointed out the facts of the matter are very clear..

They are bottom of the league after 30 games,  they are bottom of the form league for 6 games, they are below the other teams around them in the form league for the last 10 games. This season they have have failed to beat the club directly above them, they have failed to beat the club 2 places directly above them and their manager has failed to put out a team that is capable of beating a team 3 places above them.

The idea that some Lazarus miracle was about to happen is fanciful to say the least.

Jeezo - you guys are really, really scared of these games actually being played, by some miracle. To the extent that you've researched stats for 4 teams for the last 6 games (?!?) Not 5, not 10 but specifically 6. Saddo.

Yes we might have gone down anyway. Probably on goal difference on the last day. But it wouldn't have needed a Houdini-like escape. And yes, the bigger scandal is what is being done to Falkirk and Partick. But hey, as long as the ducks were put in a row for Doncaster to cling to his hopes for a TV deal bonus in the Summer and Celtic to cling to their hopes to participate in any Champions League restart in the Autumn, then that's all that matters. And there's no end of useful idiots to steer into doing the dirty work.

[Ric]

Just now, Pet Jeden said:

Jeezo - you guys are really, really scared of these games actually being played, by some miracle. To the extent that you've researched stats for 4 teams for the last 6 games (?!?) Not 5, not 10 but specifically 6. Saddo.

Well either that or the websites that compile the stats do so either by the last 6 or last 10 games played. I'm not cherry picking here, I'm using the stats available to me.

[Pet Jeden]

19 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

Depends on the nature of the sponsorship, doesn't it? Won't Ladbrokes, at the very least, demand their money back for being the sponsors of a competition that the competitors decided wasn't going to exist anymore? I can't think they'd be happy to see their cash go into the 'prize' pool with nothing to show for it.

They can. But if you think for a second clubs will vote to do anything other than share the finances evenly on a voided season, you're absolutely delusional.

Easy. Get Doncaster to tell them it's the only way.

Edited May 16, 2020 by Pet Jeden

[johnnydun]

Scottish Football as a whole has handled this situation dreadfully.

They had a real chance during this lengthy shutdown to make some wholesale changes right across the board, we could have had a kind of reset, not in titles won etc, but for league reconstruction, wealth distribution, voting numbers etc.

Self interest, stubbornness, short term gains, face saving and arse kissing have all won the day again.

We could have a fantastic product here that is supported like nowhere else, it could have been made more competitive, challenging, interesting and more financially viable all the way down the leagues.

It's like they are all to scared to have any type of progression, giving into the demands of TV companies and not changing set ups to benefit the many for the long term as that might upset the few in the short term.

Scottish football is it's own worst enemy and will never move forward unless it grows a set.