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League Reconstruction 20/21 season


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5 hours ago, JTS98 said:

That's a disingenuous was of wording it.

Hearts were relegated six years ago in a scenario where the relegation was more or less inevitable before the season started. League reconstruction was never mentioned, nobody ever raised the prospect of trying to find a workaround to keep Hearts up.

I've asked a few times and nobody has given me an answer, but if Hearts are some kind of special case, then why did nobody bother in 2014? Why did nobody bother in 1999 when we were bottom with 8 games to go? Why now and only now?

The answer to that is quite obvious and is clearly that it is unfair to relegate a team with 20% of the season still to go. It would equally apply to any team.

There is no fair answer to this season.Hearts also played 80% of the season and where bottom.Is it fair for them to stay up? No its not.

The league vote was to end the season early therefore 100% of games have deemed to have been played.

Every team had games left and every team could have improved their position.Why should hearts be given special benefit because they might have done better when other teams have to accept where they finished?

 

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2 minutes ago, Sparticus said:

There is no fair answer to this season.Hearts also played 80% of the season and where bottom.Is it fair for them to stay up? No its not.

The league vote was to end the season early therefore 100% of games have deemed to have been played.

Every team had games left and every team could have improved their position.Why should hearts be given special benefit because they might have done better when other teams have to accept where they finished?

 

Why not? They haven't been relegated. I can't see any reason it could be described as unfair for a club that has not been relegated to be allowed to remain in that division.

As has been mentioned before, St Mirren were bottom at this stage last season and in horrendous form. Yet they rallied and stayed up. There is no justification for demoting Hearts based on 30 games played.

Comparing it to other clubs is again disingenuous. No other club is looking at losing 20% of its income, losing access to European qualification etc. It's not a logical comparison.

I've yet to see a logical considered argument explaining how it is in any way just to relegate any club in this situation. I do not believe one exists.

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5 hours ago, JTS98 said:

That's a disingenuous was of wording it.

Hearts were relegated six years ago in a scenario where the relegation was more or less inevitable before the season started. League reconstruction was never mentioned, nobody ever raised the prospect of trying to find a workaround to keep Hearts up.

I've asked a few times and nobody has given me an answer, but if Hearts are some kind of special case, then why did nobody bother in 2014? Why did nobody bother in 1999 when we were bottom with 8 games to go? Why now and only now?

The answer to that is quite obvious and is clearly that it is unfair to relegate a team with 20% of the season still to go. It would equally apply to any team.

Aye but if it was another team I doubt you’d be arguing for some back-of a-fag-packet reconstruction to save them,  and I am absolutely certain Ann Budge wouldn’t support it either.

It is sad that the cause of this has to be continually restated.   No one foresaw an event that would stop the season with no chance of it being completed and continued uncertainty as to when next season will commence.

In such circumstances problems and difficult decisions were unavoidable and there would be some clubs who would suffer.  The SPFL proposal that was backed by the majority of clubs without any Mickey Mouse reconstruction is the best of a bad bunch of options.

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5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Aye but if it was another team I doubt you’d be arguing for some back-of a-fag-packet reconstruction to save them,  and I am absolutely certain Ann Budge wouldn’t support it either.

You'll simply say I'm lying, but that's up to you, however, there is no chance I'd advocate any club being relegated in this scenario.

It's not necessary for anyone to be relegated. Your view that one club bearing the brunt of this alone is the best of bad options is mistaken, for me. The best of the bad options is the clubs sharing the pain around a bit to minimize the impact on any one club.

The other clubs are adopting an 'I'm alright, Jack' approach here. This could have happened in any season, affecting any club.

Hearts have not been relegated and should not have to be a sacrificial lamb. There is no ethical justification for that.

Edited by JTS98
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12 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Why not? They haven't been relegated. I can't see any reason it could be described as unfair for a club that has not been relegated to be allowed to remain in that division.

As has been mentioned before, St Mirren were bottom at this stage last season and in horrendous form. Yet they rallied and stayed up. There is no justification for demoting Hearts based on 30 games played.

Comparing it to other clubs is again disingenuous. No other club is looking at losing 20% of its income, losing access to European qualification etc. It's not a logical comparison.

I've yet to see a logical considered argument explaining how it is in any way just to relegate any club in this situation. I do not believe one exists.

Clubs voted to end the season so the bottom club gets relegated.Only other option is not to promote Dundee utd and keep hearts up.Do you think thats fair?

More chance if finished the further eight games that hearts would be further adrift with the results they were gatteing in huge matches.

lost to St mirren.Got away witha draw at home to Hamilton,you were going down and just clutching at straws due to covid now.

Edited by Sparticus
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1 minute ago, Sparticus said:

1) Clubs voted to end the season so the bottom club gets relegated.Only other option is not to promote Dundee utd and keep hearts up.Do you think thats fair?

2) More chance if we.d finished the further eight games that hearts would be further adrift with the results they were gatteing in huge matches.

lost to St mirren.Got away witha draw at home to Hamilton,you were going down and just clutching at straws due to covid now.

1) That's not the only other option. Dundee United could still be promoted and Hearts not relegated. That way there is no one team losing out in a big way. Every club receives slightly less cash next year and we move the system back to normal as quickly as possible. What's the problem with that?

2) That's speculation and is completely irrelevant. It's a red herring in ethical terms to mention how well or badly Hearts have been playing. It doesn't change the fact that they have not been relegated. St Mirren's form at this point last year was horrific.

However, whether Hearts had been playing heroically or dreadfully up to this point is ethically irrelevant. The issue is that they have not been relegated and should not be forced to bear the consequences of having been. There is no justification for one club to be punished for this in such a severe manner.

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8 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

You'll simply say I'm lying, but that's up to you, however, there is no chance I'd advocate any club being relegated in this scenario.

It's not necessary for anyone to be relegated. Your view that one club bearing the brunt of this alone is the best of bad options is mistaken, for me. The best of the bad options is the clubs sharing the pain around a bit to minimize the impact on any one club.

Hearts have not been relegated and should not have to be a sacrificial lamb.

I doubt anything I say will change your mind, but Hearts are not a ‘sacrificial lamb’, they just happened to be bottom of the league when the schedule came to an unexpected halt WITH 30 GAMES PLAYED.

Maybe if your owner had appointed a decent manager rather than the clown that’s now in charge things might have been different.  Maybe they would not have been sitting at the bottom of the table with 23 points from 30 games.

Maybe Budge’s continual bleating is to deflect from this horrendous appointment.  Just a thought. 

Edited by Granny Danger
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1 minute ago, Granny Danger said:

I doubt anything I say will change your mind, but Hearts are not a ‘sacrificial lamb’, they just happened to be bottom of the league when the schedule came to an unexpected halt 1) WITH 30 GAMES PLAYED.

2) Maybe if your owner had appointed a decent manager rather than the clown that’s now in charge things might have been different.  Maybe they would have been sitting at the bottom of the table with 23 points from 30 games.

Maybe Budge’s continual bleating is to deflect from this horrendous appointment.  Just a thought. 

1) Exactly. 30 games. Eight to go. The team bottom of the league and in horrific form after 30 games last season are still in the Premiership.

2) Completely irrelevant. The point is that Hearts have not been relegated. It doesn't matter if the team in this position are an under-performing big spender or a team of part-timers heroically battling against the odds. The quality of performance is irrelevant. They have not been relegated.

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1 minute ago, JTS98 said:

1) That's not the only other option. Dundee United could still be promoted and Hearts not relegated. That way there is no one team losing out in a big way. Every club receives slightly less cash next year and we move the system back to normal as quickly as possible. What's the problem with that?

2) That's speculation and is completely irrelevant. It's a red herring in ethical terms to mention how well or badly Hearts have been playing. It doesn't change the fact that they have not been relegated. St Mirren's form at this point last year was horrific.

However, whether Hearts had been playing heroically or dreadfully up to this point is ethically irrelevant. The issue is that they have not been relegated and should not be forced to bear the consequences of having been. There is no justification for one club to be punished for this in such a severe manner.

Hearts have been relegated though,the sesson may have ended early but it has and has been deemed to have been completed.

Even Uefa said it must be done on sporting merit.Its sport,promotion and relegation MUST happen.

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1 minute ago, Sparticus said:

Hearts have been relegated though,the sesson may have ended early but it has and has been deemed to have been completed.

Even Uefa said it must be done on sporting merit.Its sport,promotion and relegation MUST happen.

You've still not presented a single reasoned argument.

'It's sport'? Changing the rules midway through the competition is 'sport'? Really?

Relegation does not need to happen. Ethically, it should not.

I'm heading out to the shops now. We're not going to get a better answer for why Hearts should accept an artificial relegation because one does not exist.

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17 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

Hearts should not have to be a sacrificial lamb.

😂 Dearie me, no matter how many times it is reiterated that 'if the Prem is voted to be finished it will be finished', it'll never get through.

To think, today could be the day...

Edited by RossBFaeDundee
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9 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

You've still not presented a single reasoned argument.

'It's sport'? Changing the rules midway through the competition is 'sport'? Really?

Relegation does not need to happen. Ethically, it should not.

I'm heading out to the shops now. We're not going to get a better answer for why Hearts should accept an artificial relegation because one does not exist.

Yes we are.the league could not be completerd because of a pandemic.We're lucky we got to 80% so we didnt have to null and void it.That would have been a big problem.

After 80% of games played  it would be unfair NOT to relegate hearts,however 100% of games HAVE been played because we wont play any more.

Therefore hearts finish bottom and go down.Its not unfair, id say it's more a bit unlucky.

Edited by Sparticus
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Aye but if it was another team I doubt you’d be arguing for some back-of a-fag-packet reconstruction to save them.


Mind you if it was a more innocuous team then we wouldn’t have quite so many people on here vehemently opposing it principally because they wanted to laugh at Ross County or Hamilton.
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19 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

You've still not presented a single reasoned argument.

'It's sport'? Changing the rules midway through the competition is 'sport'? Really?

Relegation does not need to happen. Ethically, it should not.

I'm heading out to the shops now. We're not going to get a better answer for why Hearts should accept an artificial relegation because one does not exist.

What do you say to Dundee, Ayr, Arbroath, Morton, Alloa who have been denied the chance of winning promotion  because the rules have been changed midway through?

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7 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

 


Mind you if it was a more innocuous team then we wouldn’t have quite so many people on here vehemently opposing it principally because they wanted to laugh at Ross County or Hamilton.

 

There’s an element of schadenfreude no doubt, and that might be increased depending on the ‘status’ of the club involved, but it doesn’t detract from the fairness of the process.  It was as fair as it could be and certainly doesn’t justify knee-jerk reconstruction.

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41 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Maybe Budge’s continual bleating is to deflect from this horrendous appointment.  Just a thought. 

This is it.

Hearts have done a Rangers on a smaller scale.

Rather than take umbrage with the club for spending what they have and having Hearts in the precarious position of bring adrift in 12th after 30 games, they're all pointing their guns at everyone else.

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1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

However, whether Hearts had been playing heroically or dreadfully up to this point is ethically irrelevant. The issue is that they have not been relegated and should not be forced to bear the consequences of having been. There is no justification for one club to be punished for this in such a severe manner.

This has to stop.

You're saying there's no justification for one club to be punished in such a severe manner - if so then you surely also can't extravagantly award teams who "have not won the title", or award 4th place prize money to teams who still might have finished 7th, or keep teams up who still might have been relegated, or vice versa, or so on, or so on. If you can't relegate Hearts you can't call any other team in the country's final positions either, unless they were already guaranteed. In other words you have to void the season - which we know isn't happening.

Your language of "no justification for one club to be punished" makes it sound like everyone else is making up one rule for Hearts and other rules for everyone else... Actually, this is exactly what you are trying to do to get your club out of a relegation which, if reconstruction fails and it happens, will be justified entirely by them having been the worst team in the league this season.

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Mind you if it was a more innocuous team then we wouldn’t have quite so many people on here vehemently opposing it principally because they wanted to laugh at Ross County or Hamilton.


Indeed. And our Hearts supporting chum would also have a significantly different tune.

I think St Mirren, County and Hamilton fans, however, would be quite magnanimous enough to suggest that we quite possibly should have been relegated this year, but only a god awful hearts team - with no chance whatsoever of avoiding the drop in any other circumstances - prevented it.

In short, cheerio Hearts, you should have been better.
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