League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[Golden Gordon]

3 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The SFA and/or the arbitration panel does not have the power to enforce any form of reconstruction in the SPFL, and the clubs have quite clearly said that they do not want an expanded top flight. Therefore I can't see any way that a 13 team Premiership could be proposed as a solution.

Thanks, that makes sense. For Hearts to remain in the Premiership, then Dundee United would have to remain in the Championship. Do you know what recourse Dundee United would have if arbitration led to this outcome, should they choose to challenge it?

[Aim Here]

8 minutes ago, Golden Gordon said:

Thanks, that makes sense. For Hearts to remain in the Premiership, then Dundee United would have to remain in the Championship. Do you know what recourse Dundee United would have if arbitration led to this outcome, should they choose to challenge it?

The lawyer on Sportsound was pointing out that there's no right of appeal for arbitration, unless there were major procedural issues and the like. Dundee United would presumably be able to fight their corner at the arbitration anyways, as they were a named respondent at the petition.

[renton]

Given that the arbitration panel has the remit to call for discovery of documents and to potentially enforce a revision of the league structure to admit Hearts to the Premier then the question is: Why didn't they simply go to arbitration rather than waste a couple of weeks on the court of session?

[Golden Gordon]

2 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

The lawyer on Sportsound was pointing out that there's no right of appeal for arbitration, unless there were major procedural issues and the like. Dundee United would presumably be able to fight their corner at the arbitration anyways, as they were a named respondent at the petition.

Thanks, I'll give Sportsound a listen. Was trying to work out if it would be possible for United to submit their own petition to the CoS, if arbitration didn't provide them with a favourable outcome. But from what you're saying, this would only be permissible if there were flaws in the arbitration process.

[Ric]

26 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The arbitrator can adjudicate on any matter brought before them. Hearts did bring it to court that all promotions/relegations should not happen so I assume that will be under consideration.

Hearts can't bring "there must be reconstruction" to the arbitration panel, and going by the case they put forward in court that isn't what they are trying to claim anyway. The arbitration panel while being legally binding, is not above the law, so it won't tell the SPFL they must have a 14 team top division when two votes have overwhelmingly shown there is no appetite from the clubs for that action. To do so would open it up to legal challenge itself.

It can however put the SPFL in a very awkward position, should it decide to. However, for me, compensation is by far the most likely outcome.

[Ric]

16 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

The lawyer on Sportsound was pointing out that there's no right of appeal for arbitration, unless there were major procedural issues and the like. Dundee United would presumably be able to fight their corner at the arbitration anyways, as they were a named respondent at the petition.

Yeah, that I found a little interesting. As far as I was aware, any sporting arbitration decision can be challenged through CAS, although perhaps that is when it's not a fully mandated legal arbitration.

Edit: I think the joint statement has been a bit of an own goal though. They effectively said they expect the outcome of arbitration to be negative which is immediately questioning the integrity of those on the panel, before any member has been put in place.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Ric

[MacArab]

33 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

The lawyer on Sportsound was pointing out that there's no right of appeal for arbitration, unless there were major procedural issues and the like. Dundee United would presumably be able to fight their corner at the arbitration anyways, as they were a named respondent at the petition.

I would expect that any decision made by the panel would have to take in to account the catastrophic effect that reversing promotion would have on the clubs who had their promotion confirmed 3 months ago, and who have been preparing for next season, (including selling season tickets) accordingly.

On another note. Assuming this takes a few weeks, Hearts are not yet back training. Imagining that they were in any form reinstated tot he Premiership, there is not a hope in hell they’ll be ready to play on the 1st of August.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

3 minutes ago, Ric said:

Hearts can't bring "there must be reconstruction" to the arbitration panel, and going by the case they put forward in court that isn't what they are trying to claim anyway. The arbitration panel while being legally binding, is not above the law, so it won't tell the SPFL they must have a 14 team top division when two votes have overwhelmingly shown there is no appetite from the clubs for that action. To do so would open it up to legal challenge itself.

It can however put the SPFL in a very awkward position, should it decide to. However, for me, compensation is by far the most likely outcome.

Arbitration can do almost anything. From the legislation.
 

Quote

 

49 The tribunal's award may—

(a)be of a declaratory nature,

(b)order a party to do or refrain from doing something (including ordering the performance of a contractual obligation), or

(c)order the rectification or reduction of any deed or other document (other than a decree of court) to the extent permitted by the law governing the deed or document.

 

Perfectly possible for an arbitrator to order the SPFL to structure the league to conform with Hearts reconstruction proposal.

The previous votes do not and can not tie the arbitrators award. And just because the SPFL don't want to do something doesn't matter, if they are found to be in the wrong the arbitrator can make them do it.

The only restrictions is  this
 

Quote

 

1 Founding principles

The founding principles of this Act are—

(a)that the object of arbitration is to resolve disputes fairly, impartially and without unnecessary delay or expense,

(b)that parties should be free to agree how to resolve disputes subject only to such safeguards as are necessary in the public interest,

(c)that the court should not intervene in an arbitration except as provided by this Act.

Anyone construing this Act must have regard to the founding principles when doing so.

 

It would be a s-t-r-e-t-c-h to argue that the SPFL Premiership being expanded to 14 teams is a explicitly not in the public interest.

[AyrExile]

44 minutes ago, renton said:

Given that the arbitration panel has the remit to call for discovery of documents and to potentially enforce a revision of the league structure to admit Hearts to the Premier then the question is: Why didn't they simply go to arbitration rather than waste a couple of weeks on the court of session?

When the Spfl weren’t getting their own way the Sfa started issuing some threats. What were the chances of getting an impartial hearing and documents produced that already have been classified as highly confidential? The judge has at least set out a few ground rules which gives them a better chance but still unlikely the process won’t be skewed towards those in charge of our game 

[lionel wickson]

5 hours ago, Green Day said:

Doesnt Tom English have an exclusive for us today?

Or is he keeping his trap shut now it looks like his mission is about to fall apart?

Richard Gordon said that he was unable to appear owing to some "family issues".

[DumbartonBud]

24 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

 

It would be a s-t-r-e-t-c-h to argue that the SPFL Premiership being expanded to 14 teams is a explicitly not in the public interest.

Seriously,

In what way can anything to do with league sizes be considered in terms of a public interest test. 

[Andy groundhopper]

Unfair, malice, the covid19 is making every company act strangely - every job loss could be called unfair, why me ? If you base things on PPG, a club could say we'd have got more points IF we played the games. Because it's unprecedented times, decisions were made, votes were taken and the majority agreed. Many more twists and turns ahead in the legal world of football, does anyone think Hearts will win ? (apart from their fans)

[Ric]

41 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Arbitration can do almost anything. From the legislation.
 

Perfectly possible for an arbitrator to order the SPFL to structure the league to conform with Hearts reconstruction proposal.

The previous votes do not and can not tie the arbitrators award. And just because the SPFL don't want to do something doesn't matter, if they are found to be in the wrong the arbitrator can make them do it.

The only restrictions is  this
 

It would be a s-t-r-e-t-c-h to argue that the SPFL Premiership being expanded to 14 teams is a explicitly not in the public interest.

Again, the problem with that is it would put it in direct dispute with other parties not involved in the process. We'll need to see the exact wording of the case before arbitration, of course, but it doesn't act within isolation. Those votes, for example, *must* impact the decision because they were done so under legal guidelines and Hearts are not challenging them at this point in time.

 

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

The arbitrator can adjudicate on any matter brought before them. Hearts did bring it to court that all promotions/relegations should not happen so I assume that will be under consideration.

Hearts could win and the SPFL is faced with either not promoting Dundee United (and subsequently leaving themselves open to more legal challenges, which they could also lose) or accept Hearts and Dundee Utd will both be in the top division and have to find a solution to make that happen. That would almost certainly force a 14 team league.

And I don't know why people assume the arbitrator cannot force reconstruction. The arbitrator can order the SPFL board to do anything in their power, which would include reconstruction. The SPFL board never denied they had the power when Leslie Deans suggested it. They said they would not use it.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/hearts-dealt-further-blow-spfl-22191688

This is not the same as the panel forcing them to reconstruct the league - as you say they would then have a choice as to how to proceed, and reconstruction would only be one such option. It is not clear that the board have sufficient power to expand the top flight without changing at least one rule which would trigger the need for an ordinary or qualified resolution. Even the decision to reduce each of the lower tiers to 27 games went to a vote, albeit it's not clear whether this was binding or just courtesy.

[The Master]

1 hour ago, MacArab said:

I would expect that any decision made by the panel would have to take in to account the catastrophic effect that reversing promotion would have on the clubs who had their promotion confirmed 3 months ago, and who have been preparing for next season, (including selling season tickets) accordingly.

If the panel were to find procedural improprieties in the original vote, they could rule it null and void and order it re-run. 

That would have the effect of overturning titles, promotions and relegations - albeit almost certainly on a temporary basis (in that the vote would be re-run and almost certainly have the same outcome). 

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

34 minutes ago, Ric said:

Again, the problem with that is it would put it in direct dispute with other parties not involved in the process. We'll need to see the exact wording of the case before arbitration, of course, but it doesn't act within isolation. Those votes, for example, *must* impact the decision because they were done so under legal guidelines and Hearts are not challenging them at this point in time.

 

That literally does not matter. The arbitrator doesn't have to consider outside parties.

Slightly different but similar. You can take your employer to a tribunal to get your job back if you were wrongly dismissed. The panel doesn't have to take into account if your job has been filled by someone else. They can instruct your employer to take you back with your previous role.  It is up to the employer to sort out what to do with your replacement.

The reconstrcution votes are a moot point if the previous rule changes to stop the league and relegate hearts are found to be flawed and unfair.

I don't think any of this will happen. Just saying that going to arbitration hasn't removed any of the potential options in resolving this issue. And it certainly hasn't made Hearts case any liklier to succeed.

 

 

[LIVIFOREVER]

42 minutes ago, The Master said:

If the panel were to find procedural improprieties in the original vote, they could rule it null and void and order it re-run. 

That would have the effect of overturning titles, promotions and relegations - albeit almost certainly on a temporary basis (in that the vote would be re-run and almost certainly have the same outcome). 

Maybe Ann Budge has got her hands on one of these babies.

 

Right guys, you have to vote for reconstruction, this is the first time you've voted for it and you want to vote YES.

[RandomGuy.]

45 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

That literally does not matter. The arbitrator doesn't have to consider outside parties.

Slightly different but similar. You can take your employer to a tribunal to get your job back if you were wrongly dismissed. The panel doesn't have to take into account if your job has been filled by someone else. They can instruct your employer to take you back with your previous role.  It is up to the employer to sort out what to do with your replacement.

Unless you were part of a voting process that saw you demoted, it's not similar at all.

It's the equivalent of being a board member.

You know one of you gets replaced every Summer based on your performance at work. You've been the worst with a month left, when an emergency vote is called. You agreed to the terms of the vote when you accepting being a member.

You then try and get your place back on the board when you're voted out. 

Do you think you succeed?

[Ric]

59 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

That literally does not matter. The arbitrator doesn't have to consider outside parties.

Yes, it does, and the bit you quoted shows that.

[flood]

2 hours ago, The Master said:

If the panel were to find procedural improprieties in the original vote, they could rule it null and void and order it re-run. 

That would have the effect of overturning titles, promotions and relegations - albeit almost certainly on a temporary basis (in that the vote would be re-run and almost certainly have the same outcome). 

If a second vote was to take place to end season. I am.sure that all clubs, apart from hearts, would vote to end season and relegate hearts