League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[DeeTillEhDeh]

LOL.
I just had my first visit to kickback.
Understandably deluded, almost all of them 'convinced' they won in court today. The 2:1 rulings in their favour mean they won. Any posts to the contrary are getting pelters.
One poster (Last Laff) points out the stupidity of claiming a victory when Hearts / Partick have actually been ordered to pay costs to the SPFL.
That opinion is challenged by one brain donor because they only have to pay 50% of the costs.
So, still a victory for Hearts then.
 

I felt sorry for the guy Last Laff - he was battling against a tidal wave of stupidity.

[Aim Here]

52 minutes ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

Hearts wanted full courts case. 

SPFL's stance was it should go to Arbitration. 

United's was that it should be dismissed outright.

What you seem to be missing is that United's case was that it should be dismissed outright because it should have gone to arbitration. United's case is identical to the one you claim couldn't have been argued by the SPFL because it's self-contradictory. SPFL and United both argued for the case to be punted to arbitration; the difference is what happened to the Court of Session case while the arbitration was ongoing. United wanted it binned so that Arbitration was the end of the story. The SPFL figured it should be suspended and the judge looks at it again after the result comes back from the arbitrators.

And the judge didn't dismiss United's motion because it was self-contradictory. He dismissed it because it occurred too early in the proceedings for the issues raised by the dismissal motion to be discussed. The SPFL could also have argued the same, but they have correctly figured that the sist was the correct legal move.

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Aim Here

[Guest JTS98]

6 hours ago, welshbairn said:

They're doing you a favour, not a happy place.

Meanwhile here's a deluded straw grasping summary by @JTS98 's favourite. Enjoy!.

I have absolutely no idea who lone striker is or why you've quoted me in that post.

[welshbairn]

40 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

I have absolutely no idea who lone striker is or why you've quoted me in that post.

Sorry, got him him mixed up with Football First.

[welshbairn]

56 minutes ago, Aim Here said:

What you seem to be missing is that United's case was that it should be dismissed outright because it should have gone to arbitration. United's case is identical to the one you claim couldn't have been argued by the SPFL because it's self-contradictory. SPFL and United both argued for the case to be punted to arbitration; the difference is what happened to the Court of Session case while the arbitration was ongoing. United wanted it binned so that Arbitration was the end of the story. The SPFL figured it should be suspended and the judge looks at it again after the result comes back from the arbitrators.

And the judge didn't dismiss United's motion because it was self-contradictory. He dismissed it because it occurred too early in the proceedings for the issues raised by the dismissal motion to be discussed. The SPFL could also have argued the same, but they have correctly figured that the sist was the correct legal move.

 

From a non legal perspective it was probably good strategy for the SPFL and the promoted clubs to offer a compromise option, as well as a more extreme one. Psychologically at least he's bound to be a bit drawn in a controversial case to a result that is less likely to bring angry Jambo mobs with pitchforks to his door.

[Green Day]

The reality of today should be fairly clear, that Arbitration will simply look at the facts in front of them and determine if -

1. Hearts and Thistle have a case to be "reinstated" and hence bin Dundee Utd, Raith and Cove promotions - highly unlikely
2. Hearts and Thistle are due some compensation - possible (although I cant see the grounds), but nothing like the £10m
3. That the rules (arcane and not fit for purpose as we all agree) were not broken, the clubs including Hearts voted to end the seasons and relegate themselves and things stay as they are - also possible.

Some people think that if 3 happens, there will be sanctions on Hearts and Thistle - I dont believe that will be sought or even sensible. 

 

Of course, over on the alternate world of JKB, its turning into some Roswell / A41 fan site by the looks of things.

They genuinely think they are latter day Woodward and Bernsteins and that arbitration is going to drain the swamp - another genius later said that he had it on good authority that Ann Budge wont stop litigating until Doncaster is removed..................

[Romeo]

Hearts and their familiars (Partick Thistle) will be readying their victory posts & tweets when they finally get a fraction of the money they wanted and remain firmly relegated. All this after predicting firstly that they would 100% be reinstated and then that they would be 100% guaranteed £10 million between them.

These clubs will be laughed at and derided for years to come. 

[ropy]

Any compensation will be around the levels of the parachute payment, £300k?  Are there any such payments further down the leagues?

[wastecoatwilly]

6 hours ago, Poet of the Macabre said:

Uh, all the stuff you don't know?  Thought I made it easy to follow, even for an extra special simpleton.

 

Wait yep, my unconscious mind has just kicked in.

[bluearmyfaction]

8 hours ago, VanCityHibee said:

The important thing is nobody is over-reacting.

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 minutes ago, bluearmyfaction said:

The important thing is nobody is over-reacting.

If it hadn't been for Hearts we'd all be speaking German!

[Stag Nation]

8 hours ago, VanCityHibee said:

Do exactly the same? Die while striving for an unachievable objective?

[RandomGuy.]

8 hours ago, VanCityHibee said:

All this over a game where 22 blokes kick a ball about for 90 minutes every week or two.

Absolutely mental.

[djchapsticks]

6 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

All this over a game where 22 blokes kick a ball about for 90 minutes every week or two.

Absolutely mental.

Excuse me....Those boys went over the top to protect Hearts' right to cry and throw tantrums like wee bitches whenever they don't get their way.

[Ric]

I apologise, bit of a long one (oo-er), there's a 'TL;DR?' at the end.

Outcomes of the court ruling:

Said this all along, the best outcome Hearts can have is by going to arbitration. It will pretty much guarantee them and Thistle some form of compensation. I can understand why they are celebrating, even if many seem to be claiming this was what they wanted all along - which we all know is not correct. The "whurz the doxx" claim is equally misplaced, as these will be in private, not public, and what would have been required should they have requested arbitration in the first place. Arbitration is, we should remember, a legal implement.

Of course, it's a bit of a pyrrhic victory considering (1) they have spent a good wad on their own lawyers, (2) they now have to pay part of the SPFL legal costs and (3) this is something they could have achieved for free without going to court.

Can it go back to court? Sort of, depending on which one you mean. If Hearts/Thistle are unhappy with the outcome they can appeal to CAS, but they can only go back to the Scottish legal courts only if the mandated structure of arbitration is not followed correctly. You'd imagine the latter is unlikely to happen if only because of the scrutiny on the process. Are they likely to complain to CAS? Probably, because successful businesswoman has locked herself into a zero-sum death spiral where she cannot back out unless Hearts either reap a double figure million pound settlement or reinstatement back to the top league. Both clubs have already stated they have no confidence in a positive outcome from the process. Anyone going into arbitration with that attitude is not doing so as a balanced party looking for equable solution.

Outcomes of arbitration:

I've already said I think this is by far the best way for Hearts/Thistle to get a payment. Can the arbitration panel rule that the SFPL's actions were flawed or bias? Sure, of course it can, what they cannot do is enforce the reinstatement of Hearts into the Premiership. They can recommend that reconstruction talks take place (again) although I cannot see the appetite for a vote on restructuring the leagues, let alone a successful one. The argument that stymied the last (2nd) reconstruction was that it was simply too late for things to be introduced into the up coming season and I feel that, along with no doubt quite a lot of anger at Hearts/Thistle trying to force their hand for a 3rd time, will prevail again. That's if, of course, the arbitration panel, makes this recommendation. Could Hearts/Thistle go to court if the arbitration panel recommends another reconstruction vote and that vote fails? No. The arbitration panel doesn't have the remit to tell an organisation to hold and vote and for that vote to go in a specific way. If that was the case then it wouldn't be a vote. Ultimately if they did try and force through reconstruction through recommendation then any one of the shareholders could go to court themselves.

How much can Hearts/Thistle be compensated? Honestly, I don't know. I don't think that any of us think the £10m claim made by Hearts is in any way realistic. Could it be more than £1m or so? Perhaps. Do they deserve it? IMO, no, but then it's not me on the panel. I believe there will be some level of sympathy for the position they are in and the panel will try and address that. Personally I feel a large(ish) payout will only make the Championship a hugely imbalanced league - if it wasn't already - but isn't really the issue here, it's a procedural one regarding the ending of one league, not the balance of another.

 

TL;DR?

In short Hearts/Thistle achieved what they could have got months ago by paying cash via legal representatives, will the outcome likely mean compensation for them? Yes, probably, will it be the amounts they want? No. Can it go back to the Scottish law courts? Extremely unlikely. Will it go onto CAS, probably, as signalled by both clubs already. Can arbitration force reconstruction/reinstatement/nullification of promotion? No. Can it recommend another reconstruction vote? Possibly, but again unlikely. Where are we now? Hearts/Thistle lost their case, they are relegated and will remain relegated and while this process is not over, the league cannot be stopped from going ahead - and Hearts/Thistle accept that now.

[Romeo]

I apologise, bit of a long one (oo-er), there's a 'TL;DR?' at the end.
Outcomes of the court ruling:
Said this all along, the best outcome Hearts can have is by going to arbitration. It will pretty much guarantee them and Thistle some form of compensation. I can understand why they are celebrating, even if many seem to be claiming this was what they wanted all along - which we all know is not correct. The "whurz the doxx" claim is equally misplaced, as these will be in private, not public, and what would have been required should they have requested arbitration in the first place. Arbitration is, we should remember, a legal implement.
Of course, it's a bit of a pyrrhic victory considering (1) they have spent a good wad on their own lawyers, (2) they now have to pay part of the SPFL legal costs and (3) this is something they could have achieved for free without going to court.
Can it go back to court? Sort of, depending on which one you mean. If Hearts/Thistle are unhappy with the outcome they can appeal to CAS, but they can only go back to the Scottish legal courts only if the mandated structure of arbitration is not followed correctly. You'd imagine the latter is unlikely to happen if only because of the scrutiny on the process. Are they likely to complain to CAS? Probably, because successful businesswoman has locked herself into a zero-sum death spiral where she cannot back out unless Hearts either reap a double figure million pound settlement or reinstatement back to the top league. Both clubs have already stated they have no confidence in a positive outcome from the process. Anyone going into arbitration with that attitude is not doing so as a balanced party looking for equable solution.
Outcomes of arbitration:
I've already said I think this is by far the best way for Hearts/Thistle to get a payment. Can the arbitration panel rule that the SFPL's actions were flawed or bias? Sure, of course it can, what they cannot do is enforce the reinstatement of Hearts into the Premiership. They can recommend that reconstruction talks take place (again) although I cannot see the appetite for a vote on restructuring the leagues, let alone a successful one. The argument that stymied the last (2nd) reconstruction was that it was simply too late for things to be introduced into the up coming season and I feel that, along with no doubt quite a lot of anger at Hearts/Thistle trying to force their hand for a 3rd time, will prevail again. That's if, of course, the arbitration panel, makes this recommendation. Could Hearts/Thistle go to court if the arbitration panel recommends another reconstruction vote and that vote fails? No. The arbitration panel doesn't have the remit to tell an organisation to hold and vote and for that vote to go in a specific way. If that was the case then it wouldn't be a vote. Ultimately if they did try and force through reconstruction through recommendation then any one of the shareholders could go to court themselves.
How much can Hearts/Thistle be compensated? Honestly, I don't know. I don't think that any of us think the £10m claim made by Hearts is in any way realistic. Could it be more than £1m or so? Perhaps. Do they deserve it? IMO, no, but then it's not me on the panel. I believe there will be some level of sympathy for the position they are in and the panel will try and address that. Personally I feel a large(ish) payout will only make the Championship a hugely imbalanced league - if it wasn't already - but isn't really the issue here, it's a procedural one regarding the ending of one league, not the balance of another.
 
TL;DR?
In short Hearts/Thistle achieved what they could have got months ago by paying cash via legal representatives, will the outcome likely mean compensation for them? Yes, probably, will it be the amounts they want? No. Can it go back to the Scottish law courts? Extremely unlikely. Will it go onto CAS, probably, as signalled by both clubs already. Can arbitration force reconstruction/reinstatement/nullification of promotion? No. Can it recommend another reconstruction vote? Possibly, but again unlikely. Where are we now? Hearts/Thistle lost their case, they are relegated and will remain relegated and while this process is not over, the league cannot be stopped from going ahead - and Hearts/Thistle accept that now.

Your TL;DR is TL;DR

[The DA]

18 minutes ago, Ric said:

I apologise, bit of a long one (oo-er), there's a 'TL;DR?' at the end.

Outcomes of the court ruling:

Said this all along, the best outcome Hearts can have is by going to arbitration. It will pretty much guarantee them and Thistle some form of compensation. I can understand why they are celebrating, even if many seem to be claiming this was what they wanted all along - which we all know is not correct. The "whurz the doxx" claim is equally misplaced, as these will be in private, not public, and what would have been required should they have requested arbitration in the first place. Arbitration is, we should remember, a legal implement.

Of course, it's a bit of a pyrrhic victory considering (1) they have spent a good wad on their own lawyers, (2) they now have to pay part of the SPFL legal costs and (3) this is something they could have achieved for free without going to court.

Can it go back to court? Sort of, depending on which one you mean. If Hearts/Thistle are unhappy with the outcome they can appeal to CAS, but they can only go back to the Scottish legal courts only if the mandated structure of arbitration is not followed correctly. You'd imagine the latter is unlikely to happen if only because of the scrutiny on the process. Are they likely to complain to CAS? Probably, because successful businesswoman has locked herself into a zero-sum death spiral where she cannot back out unless Hearts either reap a double figure million pound settlement or reinstatement back to the top league. Both clubs have already stated they have no confidence in a positive outcome from the process. Anyone going into arbitration with that attitude is not doing so as a balanced party looking for equable solution.

Outcomes of arbitration:

I've already said I think this is by far the best way for Hearts/Thistle to get a payment. Can the arbitration panel rule that the SFPL's actions were flawed or bias? Sure, of course it can, what they cannot do is enforce the reinstatement of Hearts into the Premiership. They can recommend that reconstruction talks take place (again) although I cannot see the appetite for a vote on restructuring the leagues, let alone a successful one. The argument that stymied the last (2nd) reconstruction was that it was simply too late for things to be introduced into the up coming season and I feel that, along with no doubt quite a lot of anger at Hearts/Thistle trying to force their hand for a 3rd time, will prevail again. That's if, of course, the arbitration panel, makes this recommendation. Could Hearts/Thistle go to court if the arbitration panel recommends another reconstruction vote and that vote fails? No. The arbitration panel doesn't have the remit to tell an organisation to hold and vote and for that vote to go in a specific way. If that was the case then it wouldn't be a vote. Ultimately if they did try and force through reconstruction through recommendation then any one of the shareholders could go to court themselves.

How much can Hearts/Thistle be compensated? Honestly, I don't know. I don't think that any of us think the £10m claim made by Hearts is in any way realistic. Could it be more than £1m or so? Perhaps. Do they deserve it? IMO, no, but then it's not me on the panel. I believe there will be some level of sympathy for the position they are in and the panel will try and address that. Personally I feel a large(ish) payout will only make the Championship a hugely imbalanced league - if it wasn't already - but isn't really the issue here, it's a procedural one regarding the ending of one league, not the balance of another.

 

TL;DR?

In short Hearts/Thistle achieved what they could have got months ago by paying cash via legal representatives, will the outcome likely mean compensation for them? Yes, probably, will it be the amounts they want? No. Can it go back to the Scottish law courts? Extremely unlikely. Will it go onto CAS, probably, as signalled by both clubs already. Can arbitration force reconstruction/reinstatement/nullification of promotion? No. Can it recommend another reconstruction vote? Possibly, but again unlikely. Where are we now? Hearts/Thistle lost their case, they are relegated and will remain relegated and while this process is not over, the league cannot be stopped from going ahead - and Hearts/Thistle accept that now.

Good read.

[mishtergrolsch]

8 hours ago, VanCityHibee said:

"We will never give up"

It's a shame the team gave up and were sitting bottom.

Tbf they gave up Premiership status when they appointed Robbie "Championship specialist" Neilson too. I mean, hes practically won the Championship more times than Hearts won games this season.

[IveSeenTheLight]

14 hours ago, HooseLee said:

St johnstone were bottom of the league at the beginning of the year.  I wonder if it took them less that 8 games to get above that 

~St johnstone had some fight about them.

You only had 4 wins all season, games where you upped your effort when against Hibs and SevCo. It did not appear that you were able to get enough points against the Ross County's, Hamiltons and St Mirren's that you were up against.

The likelyhood is, you were never equipped to scrap it out at the bottom end of the table

[Ric]

18 minutes ago, Romeo said:

Your TL;DR is TL;DR

Oh, I know. Perhaps a TL;DR;TL;DR of "Hearts threw money at something and got nothing for it"

14 minutes ago, The DA said:

Good read.

It's way too long, but thanks.