League Reconstruction 20/21 season

[Guest JTS98]

9 hours ago, JimmyMirren said:

1. Your team were pish all season. Even without COVID-19, the consequences of being pish were that your team would be relegated. Maybe instead of complaining about the fair relegation, Hearts fans should point the finger blame at the club’s players and management?

2. Your team being pish isn’t excused by what the English leagues do to their pish teams.

3. If you’re too pish to stay in the Premiership you don’t get the biggest TV money.

4. Any other teams complaints have as much legal standing as Hearts and Thistle’s...which is nil. I listened all day to the court case today, and in that time I heard very little from their legal team to suggest anything otherwise. 

5. Hearts can disagree all they like. Unfortunately taking in less money is a consequence of being in a lower league and playing smaller clubs. Hearts are not being singled out by this as a number of clubs (including my own) have spent significant time there in the past few years. Was the loss of earnings unfair? No...because had your team been less pish you wouldn’t be dropping into the Championship in the first place.

As far as Hearts fans go, you’ve been one of the more rational and reasonable ones til now, but trying to justify any of the above is laughable. If this were any other club in your situation you’d be quite rightly ripping them for the way your club and fans have reacted.

I think the fundamental part where I disagree with you is that I don't think being 'pish' comes into it. This is a point I've been making for ages.

I explained a few pages back why I think relegation shouldn't have happened. But, I'll reiterate to be clear.

1) The season wasn't finished as advertised.

2) Next season's Championship is not what was advertised. It's still not 'guaranteed' to happen, despite what some on this thread say. Who knows what happens whith the covid in the autumn and winter?

3) There's a better than zero chance that there's no promotion next season (again, with an eye on the covid).

4) Taking all this together, it's clearly a very exceptional circumstance and relegation shouldn't happen.

You don't agree. That's fair enough. But I wouldn't venture to describe your position as laughable; I just disagree. And as much as you can turn it round on me, I would turn this round and suggest that pretty  much every poster on this thread would be arguing the points I've just made if their team were in Hearts' position.

[Dons_1988]

2 hours ago, JTS98 said:

I think the fundamental part where I disagree with you is that I don't think being 'pish' comes into it. This is a point I've been making for ages.

I explained a few pages back why I think relegation shouldn't have happened. But, I'll reiterate to be clear.

1) The season wasn't finished as advertised.

2) Next season's Championship is not what was advertised. It's still not 'guaranteed' to happen, despite what some on this thread say. Who knows what happens whith the covid in the autumn and winter?

3) There's a better than zero chance that there's no promotion next season (again, with an eye on the covid).

4) Taking all this together, it's clearly a very exceptional circumstance and relegation shouldn't happen.

You don't agree. That's fair enough. But I wouldn't venture to describe your position as laughable; I just disagree. And as much as you can turn it round on me, I would turn this round and suggest that pretty  much every poster on this thread would be arguing the points I've just made if their team were in Hearts' position.

I greenied this but still take issue with the final comment. I don't think it's true in my own personal case (although I'd be annoyed) and I don't see how it's relevant.

Your position isn't entirely unreasonable although I do disagree.

I don't see how a curtailed Championship is relevant, that was a matter decided on by Championship clubs . The only reason that irks you is because you don't believe Hearts should be a Championship club right now. So you just go back to square one.

I think the headline 'Hearts relegated without season ending' is emotive, and on the face of it sounds pretty unfair. But once you get into the detail, the process, the requirements for reconstruction etc etc, to my mind what's happened is perfectly logical, if still a bit unfair on those involved.

Ultimately we're not arguing a sporting point here. Hearts' argument isn't that we shouldn't enact the conclusion of league seasons that are incomplete (eg champions, promotion) but that one specific consequence of that in relegation is too severe. That seems entirely subjective to me and I can't see how a court has the right to rule that to be the case (although admittedly I have no legal mind).

[JamesM82]

3 hours ago, JTS98 said:

I think the fundamental part where I disagree with you is that I don't think being 'pish' comes into it. This is a point I've been making for ages.

I explained a few pages back why I think relegation shouldn't have happened. But, I'll reiterate to be clear.

1) The season wasn't finished as advertised.

2) Next season's Championship is not what was advertised. It's still not 'guaranteed' to happen, despite what some on this thread say. Who knows what happens whith the covid in the autumn and winter?

3) There's a better than zero chance that there's no promotion next season (again, with an eye on the covid).

4) Taking all this together, it's clearly a very exceptional circumstance and relegation shouldn't happen.

You don't agree. That's fair enough. But I wouldn't venture to describe your position as laughable; I just disagree. And as much as you can turn it round on me, I would turn this round and suggest that pretty  much every poster on this thread would be arguing the points I've just made if their team were in Hearts' position.

If Covid comes back in a big way the Premiership won't be happening either.

Edited July 2, 2020 by JamesM82

[Ric]

3 hours ago, JTS98 said:

 

 

[Andy groundhopper]

What happens when Hearts go down,fail to perform as title favourites and finish 5th...do they say it's unfair to keep them down coz they're a big club ? No club should be taking season ticket money yet, only when fans are allowed in. Guessing that every Hearts home game will be sold out in the Minor Championship ? Putting players on stupid money has to include a relegation clause, common sense.

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, Andy groundhopper said:

What happens when Hearts go down,fail to perform as title favourites and finish 5th...do they say it's unfair to keep them down coz they're a big club ? No club should be taking season ticket money yet, only when fans are allowed in. Guessing that every Hearts home game will be sold out in the Minor Championship ? Putting players on stupid money has to include a relegation clause, common sense.

If common sense had been a factor at any stage, they wouldn't have offered the contracts they did.

[welshbairn]

The argument seems to be that Hearts are holding the SPFL responsible for Covid19 and all of its possible consequences, not just being demoted for having accumulated fewer points than all other teams in a season they voted to curtail.

[RandomGuy.]

4 hours ago, JTS98 said:

Taking all this together, it's clearly a very exceptional circumstance and relegation shouldn't happen.

The clubs voted to end the season.

The clubs voted to allow relegation. 

The clubs voted to deny reconstruction.

Your, and Hearts, entire argument is that the will of the many are ignored for the wishes of the few.

It's just pathetic.

I cannot wait for this to be done so you all just f**k off and stop peddling this wee sob story.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

One thing I picked up from the newpaper reports of the whole case yesterday. 

I think i picked this up right but the Court had to explain to Hearts the maximum they could claim for damages for 1m? Surely the legal advisers would have known that? 

Would make it seem the whole public 8m compensation claim was a media stunt to keep fans on side? 

[RandomGuy.]

1 minute ago, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

Would make it seem the whole public 8m compensation claim was a media stunt to keep fans on side? 

The whole things been a stunt.

3 months ago the fans were hounding Budge for fucking up. Now they're all defending her to the hilt.

They're just too dense to see it, so desperate to have an excuse for how absolutely shite theyve been.

[welshbairn]

Just now, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

One thing I picked up from the newpaper reports of the whole case yesterday. 

I think i picked this up right but the Court had to explain to Hearts the maximum they could claim for damages for 1m? Surely the legal advisers would have known that? 

Would make it seem the whole public 8m compensation claim was a media stunt to keep fans on side? 

Haven't read newspaper reports but do you not mean £1million is the maximum fine the SFA can impose on Hearts for refusing arbitration?

[FTOF]

Just now, Mr Positive, sometimes. said:

One thing I picked up from the newpaper reports of the whole case yesterday. 

I think i picked this up right but the Court had to explain to Hearts the maximum they could claim for damages for 1m? Surely the legal advisers would have known that? 

Would make it seem the whole public 8m compensation claim was a media stunt to keep gullible jambo fuckwits on side? 

FIFY.

To be fair, everything has been geared towards doing this. Whip them up into a frenzy of clownery and you have their unquestioning support.

Edited July 2, 2020 by FTOF

[Guest JTS98]

11 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

The clubs voted to end the season.

The clubs voted to allow relegation. 

The clubs voted to deny reconstruction.

Your, and Hearts, entire argument is that the will of the many are ignored for the wishes of the few.

It's just pathetic.

I cannot wait for this to be done so you all just f**k off and stop peddling this wee sob story.

Charming.

[Mr Positive, sometimes.]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Haven't read newspaper reports but do you not mean £1million is the maximum fine the SFA can impose on Hearts for refusing arbitration?

Yeah... It could have meant that. Maybe read it wrong/misunderstood. 

[welshbairn]

New instructions for listening in this afternoon.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/coming-to-court/public-access-to-a-virtual-hearing

N.B. "Each individual accessing the case should be personally aware of the legal restrictions of use and for this reason the meeting code should not be shared."

Think I'm covered as the link that I was sent from the court by email shows the legal restrictions but best not to share the meeting code on its own.

Edited July 2, 2020 by welshbairn

[Dundee Hibernian]

5 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

The whole things been a stunt.

3 months ago the fans were hounding Budge for fucking up. Now they're all defending her to the hilt.

They're just too dense to see it, so desperate to have an excuse for how absolutely shite theyve been.

Budge is aping the modus operandi of Sevco every summer. Three months ago Gerrard was almost out the door at Ibrox, now the support has been galvanised by the publicity machine, aided by the sports media. 

 

Hearts supporters are being correspondingly conned by Budge.

[johnnydun]

5 hours ago, JTS98 said:

I think the fundamental part where I disagree with you is that I don't think being 'pish' comes into it. This is a point I've been making for ages.

I explained a few pages back why I think relegation shouldn't have happened. But, I'll reiterate to be clear.

1) The season wasn't finished as advertised.

2) Next season's Championship is not what was advertised. It's still not 'guaranteed' to happen, despite what some on this thread say. Who knows what happens whith the covid in the autumn and winter?

3) There's a better than zero chance that there's no promotion next season (again, with an eye on the covid).

4) Taking all this together, it's clearly a very exceptional circumstance and relegation shouldn't happen.

You don't agree. That's fair enough. But I wouldn't venture to describe your position as laughable; I just disagree. And as much as you can turn it round on me, I would turn this round and suggest that pretty  much every poster on this thread would be arguing the points I've just made if their team were in Hearts' position.

1) No it wasn't, however it was ended in line with the rules. Although the SPFL board didn't need to put a vote out on this, the majority voted for it.

2) Nothing in life or Football is 'Guaranteed' (Ask Darren Jackson), like the completion of last season and the start of next, I can't see how this is a point no matter what division you are in.

3) Another empty point. Who's to say you will be top anyway? If you are, I take it you will be behind the prospect of no promotion or relegation, like you are just now.

4) No, the rules Hearts signed up for at the start of the season have been followed. Hearts have been relegated due to their position at the end of the season.

Edited July 2, 2020 by johnnydun

[Paisley Ton]

4 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

New instructions for listening in this afternoon.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/coming-to-court/public-access-to-a-virtual-hearing

Court conditions say

"Must not during the course of the hearing, comment on the proceedings or use live text based .........."

May have to stay off line until hearing is complete.

[johnnydun]

Just now, Paisley Ton said:

Court conditions say

"Must not during the course of the hearing, comment on the proceedings or use live text based .........."

May have to stay off line until hearing is complete.

Hearts fans won't. You know how they hate rules.

[Guest JTS98]

3 minutes ago, johnnydun said:

1) No it wasn't, however it was ended in line with the rules. Although the SPFL board didn't need to put a vote out on this, the majority voted for it.

2) Nothing in life or Football is 'Guaranteed' (Ask Darren Jackson), like the completion of last season and the start of next, I can't see how this is a point no matter what division you are in.

3) Another empty point. Who's to say you will be top anyway? If you are, I take it you will be behind the prospect of no promotion or relegation, like you are just now.

4) No, the rules Hearts signed up for at the start of the season have been followed. Hearts have been relegated due to their position at the end of the season.

I don't know how many times people want me to reply to the same points. Read back the last couple of pages.

I've never argued this from a legalistic point of view. I just think the clubs should have found a way to avoid what is an unfair situation.

If someone had said back in August 'How would you feel about relegating a team if the season stopped unexpectedly early and next season's arrangements were far from certain?' I think the majority of people would have instinctively felt that the idea of relegating a team on that basis was basically unfair.

Nobody is arguing that Hearts are certain to win the Championship. But the question of whether there is guaranteed to be a promotion place next season is a legitimate one. We don't know how much of the season will be played and we don't know what the results of that will be in terms of promotion and relegation. At this stage we don't even know if the reduced Championship will actually happen as planned. There are many unknowns and to deny that seems strange.

Hearts are being relegated based on a reduced season and may be playing in a league where nobody gets promoted. If you can't see the basic unfairness in that, fair enough.